Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, so I hatched another nice clutch of extremes this year, and all of them have been out of their eggs for a couple days now except for one. I slit this last egg a couple days after the others were out and a few last one's were pipping with their heads out. This last one still hadn't come out today either and there was still a TON of thick yolk mass there so I knew this one probably died a good while back and never fully developed.

Well, today I still didn't see anything so I went ahead and gently dug it out from the center of the thick yolk mass to see what the deal was......

To my EXTREME shock and dissapointment, this snake was fully-formed with NO deformities and moving around, it was just very small. The other thing that absolutely blew me away is that it looked to be an incredible looking extreme ghost!!,.....probably the best looking one ever seen to date!

And yes, I totally understand about the colors being the last thing to develop within the egg before they hatch too. Now if it was simply a case of the tangerine color being washed out and not developed yet in it's inner triad rings, they should be the exact same coloration as what would normally be the red (in this case tangerine) body rings (RBR), but they AREN'T!.....they are pure snow white just as an extreme ghost, normal ghost, or anery would also display. You can even just make out the extremely thin vanished pinner rings bordering the wide inner white rings on this one. There is no way that the virtually unicolored alternating tangerine rings should be this insanely different and pure WHITE......

Anyway, if I only left it alone, I bet it would have hatched out just fine and would have been the most extreme ghost ever seen to date, but who would have known it would be so far behind in it's development than the other eggs??.......it's just bizarre!! I have never had a hatchling so far behind the rest in developing or hatching. Another crazy thing is that this line of extremes don't have anything to do with the anerythristic gene either, because after of four big clutches the past four years I would have known by now.

I think the poor thing has already died since I pulled it out a few hours ago........*sigh*....pretty disappointing..

You can tell by comparing the colors to the other nice extremes in the second photo that it seemed to be a very outstanding extreme ghost......arrrgh!!!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

......guess my two adults were het for anery, only the two seperate guy's didn't know..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Sucks that it didn't make it Doug. It would definatly have been an amazing extreme.
With it being that under developed and already showing the color it was in it's neck area I would be more likely to guess it would turn out to be a extreme hypo though.
Great looking clutch!!!
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Randy Whittington

Yes, you are probably right about that.......the odds are just too astronomical that the two parents are het as well anyway to be quite honest.......nature sure is crazy Randy..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug- congrats on the Extremes! They look very nice. Bummer on the possibilities with the Extreme Ghost.

Hey, I had something weird happen with an Extreme clutch last year. 5 eggs which all went full term and then some(I think about 82 days). They started hatching and I noticed the first two to pip just came out a little and died. The head of the snake came out of the egg about ½” and that was it. Both Extremes were almost patternless. I ended up waiting another 3 days and then cut the other 3 eggs open. All were fully developed but dead. They would have been cool looking snakes. I have a few pics below. You or anyone ever have something like that happen?
Male Falcon Line

Female Falcon

The neonates

Doug, sorry to hear about this. Sucks. I just wonder if the snake might have had some internal problems or something? I think for the most part most healthy hatchlings would hatch out within a reasonable time of one another. I am sure there are exceptions though and this could have been one of them. Sure makes for some darn pretty getula baby food.

Hi Joe,....another strong possibility could be that it's umbilical stem got kinked or twisted, so it couldn't absorb the yolk as it normally would have......who the hell knows though..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks Craig,....

Those are some SWEET extremes there bud!. Yes, that's too bad about your neonate extremes not making it. Those sure would have been very outstanding!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Wow, Doug. That baby would have been gorgeous! Too bad. I had the exact same thing happen with a corn snake egg I opened days after everybody else in the clutch had emerged. I couldn't beleive when it started moving!

Anyway glad for your successes and sad for your loss! I know I am going to be more patient about pulling them out, even if I do slit the egg!

--Dennis

Wow, sorry for your loss, that would have been an extraordinary snake for sure. It brings up a question that I've wrestled with for almost as long as I've been breeding snakes... is it appropriate to cut slits in eggs after the first one or two in a clutch starts to pip? I have done so, ever since finding what may have been the world's first captive bred dicephalous black milksnake hatchling, fully formed and dead in the last egg of the second clutch of gaigeae I ever produced. One of the heads had started to make a slit in the shell, but they either drowned in the egg or died due to internal deformities. I never want to lose another unique hatchling like that again. On the pro side, one would expect that a clutch of eggs that was fertilized at the same time, possesses the same genetics, and were incubated under the same conditions would develop at the same rate, so when one is ready to hatch, they all should be. That seems like a perfectly rational justification to me. On the other hand, though, I find that some of the eggs that I cut open still have quite a bit of unabsorbed yolk in them. I wonder if I had left this last clutch alone, would I have had fewer problems with hatchlings emerging from the egg still tethered to their yolks, as three out of six of them did? Also, I suspect that cutting eggs open could allow ones that would have otherwise been too weak or deformed to survive, ones that would have (and arguably, should have) died in the egg rather than being cut out and dying of general failure to thrive weeks or months later. This has happened to me at two or three times over the years. What do you all think?

Nate

If I cut, I cut a small window about 24-48 hours after the first neonate has pipped, but only on some clutches. If I have possible hets that I'm trying to prove out, I'll cut windows just to see what I have. I haven't had any umbilical issues myself, but I could see how it could make the neonate emerge a little early causing problems like you've described.

This year I only cut a larger window after the neonate started to pip on it's own. I don't think there is any "good reason" to cut unless you have a two-headed specimen like yours.

-Rusty

Here's a pic of a clutch showing a few windows I cut in the eggs:

I had the exact same experience with a honduran milk that was very large and otherwise well formed. It seems to have drowned in the egg trying to maneuver around. It was an odd looking snake.

I usually will slit the last egg after a couple of days since others have hatched, and then leave it alone to emerge as it wishes. The corn snake I mentioned in an earlier post seemed completely lifeless after 3 days, so I decided to check it out. I was flabbergasted to find it alive. You just can't always tell.

Yeah, I know what you mean about every bit of that Nate,.......I guess there is never one good answer for any of it either as all situations can be very different with virtually ANY given egg.

Yeah, I bet the one head pipped the egg, and the other head was drowned as it prevented the other from being able to come out. I guess maybe the death of the one also lead to the death of the other quite possibly..*shrug"...that's too bad.......what a unique looking gaigeae that would have been!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I don't slit eggs anymore. Everytime I have tried it has been a disaster.

One time I slit an egg because I thought the clutch was overdue and the one I slit emerged prematurely without having absorbed the yolk and died. The rest of the clutch hatched just fine 2 days later.

In my view, as long as the eggs look good, and there is appropriate humidity in the egg box, they will hatch when they are ready.

If an egg doesn't pip after the rest of them do then likely it was doomed to begin with and slitting wouldn't have helped anyway.

Dave
DNS Reptiles - Milk Snakes

Too bad Doug!

Let's see more pics of that clutch!

-Rusty

Yeah, I'll post some more when I can upload them later on. They are all pre-shed pics though, and they are all really opaque right now. I'll get some good one's up soon though Rusty..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, nice clutch of extremes. I actually had the same thing happen a few years ago with a pair of tangerine het albinos. One piped and I cut the rest. One looked like a snow and I was happy since they were not known to be het for snow. It came out about 4 or 5 days later and it was just an albino. I am wondering if they get most of there color in the last few days. Maybe next year you can prove her out with an extreme ghost or ghost.

Hi Don,....thanks a bunch my friend..

Wow!, now that is really interesting to hear. Was that hatchling pure snow-white (like mine) in it's inner triad rings, then hatched 4-5 days later on with very normal tangerine or intermediate colors??......

Yeah, I always knew they get their coloration towards the end from other very pale neonates that never made it, but 4-5 days is mind-blowing!!....very interesting for sure.

Hope your season is going well there too............

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

It actually was pretty much white with a little off white banding.

"It actually was pretty much white with a little off white banding"

Very interesting Don.....thanks!

Nice looking vanished amel there too...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

If they get their color so late in the game, could you develop a snake ICU unit for premature snakes and develop whole new color schemes?

Or is that just the mad scientist in me talking?

Thanks Doug. She should breed this next year to this male.

That will make a very nice pairing, Don. I have a very vanished pair of amels that might go next year too....best of luck with them!..

Here is a much older pic of the vanished female taken in late 2010.

~Doug

Here is also a much older poor pic of the male.....

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Sorry about the loss Doug. That does happen from time to time as you know. But look on the bright side, you still produced some awesome extremes anyway!

Dave

Thanks Dave!,........yes, that is SOOO true. And I couldn't be happier about how the extremes turned out looking this season!

You sure did produce some stellar animals this year......wow!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com