Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey guys. i got a baby cali king around 3 weeks ago, and he has not eaten since. he was bought from bhb and i was told he was eating frozen thawed pinkies. i had him in a 20 gallon for 2 weeks and then switched him into a small shoebox plastic tub thing. he has a 75 light near the tub inside the 20 gallon. im worried since he is small and i dont want him to starve. is there anything to help?

A light isn't the best way to heat a kingsnake enclosure, try a heat pad underneath half or 1/4 of the enclosure. With a hiding spot on both sides, and a water bowl on the cool side. After a day or two with this new set up offer a f/t pinky at night, on a little jar lid or something to act as a plate so the pinky doesn't get covered in substrate (at least not right away).

Some baby kingsnakes need movement to want to eat, but you also have to understand that little snake is terrified of you because you're at least a thousand times it's size, so if using tongs to move the pinky around you have to make sure you're not moving around too much. If the snake is scared it won't want to eat. If the f/t pinky doesn't work the next 2 times you try it I say offer a live day old pinky a couple days after that.

Make the snake feel safe and warm, and it will eat.
Good luck.
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www.kingpinreptiles.com

i have him in a plastic shoebox at the moment, that is inside the 20 gallon. i have a heat pad in the 20 gallon. should i just move the shoebox over the heat pad instead of the night? i have left the pinkies in the tank over night multiple times and theres nothing happening. i will try again tonight and see what happens.

Are you even closely monitoring the precise temps INSIDE this box it is in with a temp probe?, or are you simply guessing at what the temps might be, and that they are "okay"?.......this is EXTREMELY important!!! It could be getting WAAAY too hot in there otherwise.

What Mike said is very spot-on...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

the hot side is 85. is that hot enough? im getting a live pinky tommorow and i will see if that will work. i put him in a small deli cup with a f/t pinkie for about an hour, and nothing happened.

yes, on the one side that is okay, as long as it can get to cooler temps on the other side. Have you tried tearing the face off of a F/T pink or "braining" it and smearing the material all over the pink and offering it to the snake?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

...lol no i havent. should i try to do this? i mean, ive read about it but it kinda seems a little messsy. would one just slice open the head and smear the material all over it?

Not messy at ALL.......it takes two seconds and it often works like instant MAGIC on many reluctant to feed youngsters. The fresh tissue scent often initiates an instant feeding response just like hitting a light switch...............

In the snake hobby, you have to do what actually works, not what might seem "gross" to the general public..

I tear the snout completely off many F/T all the time with the tongs then put it in front of the reluctant hatchlings, and BAM!!

A LOOONG time ago I experimented with their reaction to this. I would put a regular F/T in front of a reluctant hatchling with a long set of tongs. Snake looks at it and stays there flicking it's tongue, but just doesn't do anything with it, even after a minute or two. Take back SAME F/T pink, rip off face....reintroduce,and.....BAM!

Even an $800 Honduran in 1996 wouldn't eat for almost two months....sliced skull of F/T pink, gently squeezed it to press some brain material out and smear it all over the head of pink,.reintroduce.........the SPLIT-SECOND the hatchling flicked it's tongue out ONE TIME.........BAM!! he ate it like it was the last rodent on earth, and from that day forward he was a pig!. I could actually see the excitement the snake had in a about 1/100th of a second when I put it in front of the non-feeder.

I do this all the time with stuff that doesn't show much interest in the normal bagged up frozen rodents. The fresh tissue scent that comes out of it is absolutely irresistable to many reluctant snakes....simple as that.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

ok thanks, i will try this tonight. if it doesnt work should i get a live pinky and try that? im worried i might have to resort to assist feeding if it does not eat.

A live pinkie could easily work too. In the wild, many Cal. kings are notorious reptile feeders, so a lizard of some kind or other snake could easily be the scenting trick that would turn it on as well. You just have to keep trying different things until one of them works every few days. As long as it doesn't look extremely thin and emmaciated, it should be fine until it gets a feeding response going on any of those items.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

ok. if she does not eat tonight i will try a live pinkie tommorow. i dont want to have a live pinkie and have the chance it wont eat and not know what to do with it. if i post a picture of her would you take a look and see how she looks?

Yeah, I would do that as well. Sure post a pic.......

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

here she is

It doesn't look too bad yet, and will likely begin to feed soon with those other mentioned things.......

best of luck with the little tike!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

So did you try a FT brained pinky yet?

Let us know the outcome?
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They like those.....
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tell Thomas
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He needs pictures!
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

i tried the ripping the face off a pinky option. he didnt take it. im confused with the skink thing. anyways in a few days i will get a live pinky. im waiting for the mice at the petstore to give birth. im wondering what might have caused the change in behavior from going from eating f/t pinkies regularly to not eating at all.

Try giving him a live skink.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

im wondering what might have caused the change in behavior from going from eating f/t pinkies regularly to not eating at all.

Sometimes if newborn neonates go to long inbetween meals they can shut down. That is why it is good to feed them as much as they will eat and as often as they will take. The larger and faster in grows in the beginning, the stronger and healthier it will be. If you wait a week or two, they can shut down.

Also it could be a combination of things like the part of the country you live in might be experincing an early winter. Or it may be some husbandry issue you missed like humidty.

Best thing is try to get its digestive juices flowing so it will eat on its own, or be prepared to shut it down for the winter cooling. That way it will conserve calories and will come out feeding like a champ in the spring.
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im going to try the dipping the pinky in tuna fish method tonight. if it doesnt eat that then i will try a live pinky. if he doesnt eat that how would one start the cool down process?

I would try a worm snake or whatever you can find in your neck of the woods which is similar. Offer that before thinking about cooling. If he refuses then cool him to 50f.

Anothe trick is get a anole and use the saliva from the anole and rub on to the head.

Are you sure he is not in pre shed?

One final last trick we used in the 70's for stubborn feeders.
This may sound a little crazy but it works. i really works.

Take the cal king for a drive in your car for about an hour. Then when you get home offer him a live pink. We did this for greybands and others snakes.After the drive and shaking and rattling BAM!, they take it. Go figure!

But really I think your problem is your husbandry. First take the overhead light away. All that does is dehydrate a small neonate. Then get an under tank heating source.

Next put the cal king in a deli cup. ...I use small storage boxes i get from Target that have a latch on each side. They are bigger than a deli cup. YOUR baby Cali needs the security. A large shoebox is just to big IMO.

Once you estblish that he/she is secure. Then you can start feeding. Leave him in the small box until he is on very large fuzzies.

Until you have doen all this then you can consider cooling.
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Yes, ........the snake definitely needs to feel well-hidden and secure with the snake forced to be right there with the meal so it cannot be avoided and overlooked. And of course put away in a nice dark closet or something as to not get spooked by any movement and foot traffic.

If all those things you mentioned don't get a feeding response......time to cool down as suggested...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

i havent used the overtank heater for 2 or 3 weeks. i use a uth on the 20 gallon and i placed the shoebox on top of it. its about 85 degrees in the hot hide differing .5 degrees or so. how big of a container? like half a shoe box or so?

Yeah, a small shoebox size (at most) or even smaller for hatchlings as previously mentioned. Same goes for cooling/brumation until they grow just a bit more.

Aside from the cooling/brumation period if it doesn't accept food in a while doing those other things that were talked about,.....As long as the hatchling/juveniles can move around, poop, get away from the feces and thermoregulate (as well as can get AWAY from the heat as needed), all is good until they grow a bit more and become more used to things and moved to a slightly bigger enclosure that offers the same exact things. The most important thing to small hatchlings is that they feel hidden and secure (this goes DOUBLE for very young milksnakes, as they are far more nervous and seclusive at this age than most kings).... along with proper temps, water, humidity, and choices to all these things for the snake to utilize them for any given situation. They use heat to help with proper digestion, and slightly cooler temps when not needing to digest to conserve energy and body mass lowering their metabolism somewhat. Humidity choices is another key element in the overall scheme.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

ok, so the best thing if it doesnt eat soon is to cool it down. would it be fine for a month or 2 like this if it hasnt eaten?

Yes, it only needs to be cooled down long enough to get it back on track in feeding mode. The cooler temps of around 55 F will slow it's metabolism to a snail's pace so it doesn't loose any substantial weight. This is ONLY providing that it doesn't eat after you try a couple more of those tricks previously mentioned. After that, the best thing would be to play along with it's instinctive "seasonal biological clock" and go ahead and cool it for a month or two, then gradually warm it back up and see if it will come out swinging and feed voluntarily. It's really just that simple. Many types of snakes start calling it quits right about now anyway, depending on the individual snake and where you live........so just roll with it if it refuses to feed really soon.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

ok. once the mice in my local petstore give birth i will buy a live pinkie and see what happens. the company i bought it from (bhb) said to try a live one and call back. brian also said we could exchange for a different snake, but im not sure if i want to do that

Yeah, if you don't swap it out now, the likelihood of him swapping it out much later will be far less likely. But it should eat for you either with a live or scented SOON, or at least later on after a month to two months brumation......it's your call..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

im waiting for the mice to give birth. i really want to get food in him. are you sure in his present state he would be fine going into brumation for a month or two? i have a corn and a ball python but ive never had this problem or cooled them down at all

Yes you should wait until the mice are born.

And during the wait put him in a smaller box (a quarter size of the shoebox like the storage boxes I reccomended at wal mart or Target) and fill it with damp orchid moss (another thing you should pick up at the when egtting teh small storage box!) . This will give the snake the security of being "Jammed In" and it will hydrate properly.

We used to use the jammed in method with lots of finicky feeders as well. They don't eat until you provide some way for the snake to feel like it is in a underbround tunnle or crevice. Theis secure feeling will trigger a feeding response.

you have to remember that small tiny newborn neonates are very secretive and are fossorial. They don't like laying out in the open as a food sourse. that is a stress on them. They need to be squeezed inbetween something moist. Not just be in a dark closet. That is not enough! More importanty, they need to feel like they are in a tight moist spot . Once they start feeding on fuzzies then you can tranfer him into the shoebox. However, he may even slow down on feeding again. It is usual for problem feeders they get over their "security " issues when they start on full growm mice . then you can keep them in any size encloser. Of course not all Cal kings are like this. Just the stubborn ones.. like yours.

Use this small box with moss method and the time it will take for the baby pinkies to be born will give him a time to adjust and feel secure and hydrated in his new encloser..
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ok, i will try this. will spaghnum work or it has to be the kind you said? should i use a small tupperware box for him?

yes any type of moss is okay. just as long as it is not the sphagnum peat moss type that is like dirt.

The point is the snake will feel hidden and is able to get the proper humidity for a small neonate.

Then after the babies are born throw one into its new encloser.
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These are the type of boxes for a small king i am talking about.
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would you happen to have the dimensions of the box?

Any box approx 1/4 the size of a shoebox will work. They have this size at wallyworld and with latches and are a different brand.

just burn some holes on the sides.

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i was unable to get a box today, but the mice were born so i got one of them. i dont live near a walmart since im in nyc. i have put the mouse in the snakes normal home. should i put them together in a deli cup instead

never mind. i actually found one that will work in my basement. how should i heat this box? i dont have a thermostat and i feel if i use a heat pad it would get way too hot

anyone? i put him in there with a heat pad under one corner. theres alot of water condensing on the top. should there be that much moisture in the box?

You need to drill a bunch of holes on the lid, that way the moisture and heat can escape. Just put a very small portion of the container over the heat pad. All the snake has to do is be able to touch the heat. And don't place the water near or on the heat, that might be why you are getting condensation, but you still need to drill a bunch of holes in the lid, so that it doesn't overheat in there one day.
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ok. i have holes in the side, but after tonights attempt at feeding i will put some holes on top. he still isnt eating and didnt eat the live pink either. i cant get another one so i have to go back to f/t. im gonna try scenting with my corn and maybe my leo or bearded

sorry to bring this back up, but he still has not ate. i put him back into the shoebox since i had too much humidity in the other box. since the last post i offered live again and f/t. i contacted bhb and they were going to go to the whiteplains show for me to switch it out, but when i called they said they werent able to go after all. they are sending me a new snake this week but i have no idea what i am going to do with this one.

That's good news. Just keep that one and put it in a cool place and if it makes it to February, warm it up and try feeding. I have a friend that says you can brumate them for just a few weeks and that will be enough, but I've never tried it my self.
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You may not be effectively heating him with that method. Change in weather too. The snake is probably refusing to feed in response to cooler conditions.

I would cool it to the 55-65 range. You can find this temp range easily somewhere in the house. A carpeted floor is often right in this range. Snake, tub, water dish, hide. Thats it. Leave it for a month or so. Then do the below setup. If it eats, great. If not, back to the cooler. Eventually the snake will eat.

Your housing should be:
Get an undertank heater and a thermostat (online, many available, see Big Apple or LLL or Bean Farm or just check the classifieds on kingsnake.com). Setup the cage with that (just slide about 3 inches of the tub over the heater. Tape thermostat probe to heater. Set for 82-84 degrees or so - 84 if room is cool, 82 if room is warm. That simple.)