Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The thread below reminded me of a topic I looked into a few years back, patternless northern pines. You see them offered occasionally but there are some sources that label them suspect as a possible northern/patternless southern cross and I've found a couple places that say a tan patternless phase northern is a true co-Dom line. I was speaking with another person that said if your patternless northern is recessive it's a cross with a southern and if its co-Dom it's a true northern. Does anybody have any other input or sources to clarify things?

There may be a possibility that there are some pure patternless northerns, but at the same time, I have heard the same from sources as well.

What did it for me though, is that I met a breeder in Daytona about 3 years ago, and he was a retired cop from NY, that had moved down to FL many years ago. He himself told me that he had bred northern pines with southern pines for many years, creating patternless mutt pines and CALLING THEM Patternless Northern pines, because in FL, he was not allowed to have a normal southern pine, so he did that hybridized waste of a cross to have somewhat normal looking pinesnakes. He ended it with a chuckle, like it was funny and it was no big deal. He even had some of his frankensnakes at his table labeled patternless northern pinesnakes. I was floored at his ignorance. He had been doing this for many, many years.

So, because of his lack of consideration for others, who knows how many of his frankensnakes made it out there into various bloodlines and breeding projects. Because of that, to me, anything called a patternless northern is suspect. Then again, even if they were pure, they do not appeal to me. The patterns of a northern are part of their magic and charm.
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Genesis 1:1

But if he wanted southerns and then crossed them to northerns for the sake of passing an inspection by someone then he still wouldnt have a southern. It just doesnt make sense to me. Example would be me, here in Texas, wanting to get some ruthveni but to avoid the laws I crossed a ruthveni with a southern. It doesnt make sense to me because I still wouldnt have a ruthveni.

Nice to meet you Discern, Ive been seeing you on multiple forums dealing with pituophis. My name's Arik.

Pleasure to meet you my friend!!!

" But if he wanted southerns and then crossed them to northerns for the sake of passing an inspection by someone then he still wouldnt have a southern. It just doesnt make sense to me. "

I know!!

He really liked normal southerns, but couldn't own one, and for some reason, a normal northern wasn't enough for him, so yeah, he decided to do that ridiculous cross with absolutely no sound reasoning, resulting in more absurdity as he labeled them as patternless northerns. He knew exactly what he was doing, he knew exactly they were mutts, and he still knowingly sold them with the label of patternless northern pines. He did this for a number of years, and maybe still is currently.

Ridiculous, ain't it?
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Genesis 1:1

Yeah that does seem pretty ridiculous.

I would like to know if a patternless northern was ever found and bred though, to shed light on the claim of co-dom meaning legit and recessive being a southern cross.

I saw some of the pics of your pines below and that black and white northern is incredible. I want!!!!

I guess its my opinion that locality specific pits will always have their loyalists and morphs almost have to be produced with locality being sacrificed in the end. Different strokes for different folks. But what you described was just plain dishonesty. If you advertise a northern pine it should, to the best of your knowledge, be a northern.

Thanks for the compliments!!

And even with me having that conversation with that non-herper, I would not ever discount the fact that there CAN be true patternless northerns out there or in nature. It just is unfortunate though that, due to breedings by that person, it just makes it all that much harder to know what is pure and what not.
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Genesis 1:1

Ive been looking into it more and I believe a patternless northern has been found and bred. All the pictures I have seen with patternless northerns show a much browner animal than the greyish looking patternless southerns. Its too bad that some breeders have to create so much confusion for the sake of making a couple extra bucks. While looking into this I ran across numerous links to people breeding every possible pit combination. Northerns to cape gophers, bulls to southerns, etc. I guess its my opinion that if they identify exactly what the animal is and not try to deceive someone then it doesnt really bother me too much. Many species of pits have overlapping ranges and integration is somewhat common it seems. But sooner or later the ID will be lost and someone will think they have a pure southern and breed its combination genes in with what is labeled pure thus allowing someones pet project to run wild throughout the hobby.

I took a chance and bought a patternless het amel northern and just got him and a couple normals het patternless/amel yesterday. Absolutely gorgeous. Thanks Ryan!!!

Here's a couple more links I ran across. Nothing really credible, just people talking, but there's really not much out there it seems.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=916215,916215&show_threads=2

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1446852,1448218&key=2007

Here we go. Finally with the right set of key words I find what Im looking for.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1722243,1722243&key=2009

Looks like some guy poached the patternless northern from the wild and it was confiscated by parks and wildlife officials. They contracted out to this organization to keep confiscated animals and the people at that org. successfully bred this male and proved the trait dominant. I looked at a picture of one of the daughters of the original male and mine looks identical.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1852426,1852426

The sire of mine is a patternless descended from that wild caught and the dam is a Lemke line albino. Cant wait to watch these guys grow up.

Very neat then about that WC one!
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Genesis 1:1

So... What about patternless Bullsnakes...?
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Is their origin suspect too? I havent looked into it but I just assumed that they had been around for awhile and were from wild caught.

I honestly wouldn't know. It's just something I wondered about since day one.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.