Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Might as well get this one checked by the experts too. Its supposed to be a sinaloan

Not a Sinaloan. Many have bred albino Nelsoni into Sinaloans, but then, afterwards, they are not either or, just a mixed bag of both.

Could be an albino nelsoni or some cross of something?

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Genesis 1:1

Well beyond my abilities to identify... I will agree with Discern though in saying it seems to have a strong Nelsons influence... beyond that it's just a red-eyed devil to me.

Hopefully DMong will read your post... he's great at figuring these things out.

Gerry

Glad to see I'm not the only one who is confused. She (it) has a pure red belly if that helps at all. I don't breed but its still nice to know what I have. She is actually quite docile. A little squirmy when first picked up but happily hangs out on my hand without spazzing. No musking either.

That doesn't prove anything either way regarding the red belly, however does it have an incomplete first white neck ring (notch) just behind the first yellow ring of the head on the throat? On many amels it's tough to make out though because the red belly usually blends into a light wide strip on the underside of the neck and throat area and obscures it.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That band is complete but once under the chin, its only a scale or two wide. Rest of the chin is yellow. At first glance it looked incomplete but its there, barely.
Is there a web site I go read about the differences? and what does the white throat ring signify?

It's the first white ring behind the head that goes underneath on the THROAT that you are really concerned about. See, just the fact that it is an albino proves beyound the shadow of a single doubt that it is at LEAST mostly (if not all L.t.nelsoni), but now we are trying to see if it has intermediate features or distict additional features of nelsoni or sinaloae.

Here is the link to a post I made a good while back regarding the distinct differences in good textbook specimens of nelsoni and sinaloae as described to science (from Williams Systematics 1978 revised second edition 1988)
Link

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Well, from what I've read I probably have a pure or nearly so Nelsons. The first white ring behind the head does connect but literally by a band only one scale wide.

Its really interesting to learn the history. It sounds a lot like the creamsicle corn snake. Doesn't matter how long ago creams had emoryi rat bred into them, they still show the influence and will never be considered pure.

Its too bad the albino nelson/pueblan cross didn't have a distinct name to help keep it all straight.

Yes, it's JUST like those examples you mentioned. Once they are "in there", they are in there and cannot be taken away.

And yes, yours is likely a totally genuine amel nelsoni, or an integrade showing FAR more nelsoni than any sinaloae in it's outward phenotype. It's impossible to know which without seeing all the siblings and traceable parental stock, but one things absolutely certain, and that's that it very much isn't an Amel Sinaloan....

I think you have a good understanding of this now, which is a great thing. Most hobbyists have no idea what the precise differences really are. Intergrades and crosses of course make things difficult to accurately ID as there is some variation within both, but exceptional examples of both subspecies are like night and day. Most people are used to seeing very intermediate examples in the hobby, so of course they can't make out any obvious differences....

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I've been into corns for about 7 years now and was interested in breeding at one time so I've done some studying. I also got a crash course in intergrades when I bought a creamscicle as my first "corn".
I will definitely label my albino as a Nelson's. I appreciate all the help

Yes, emoryi has been in countless corns for decades, and continues on today, both unknowingly and deliberately. Now there is also Gray Rat lineage(ultra/ultramel), and many other possible things in many of the morphs. Same with kingsnakes, N.A. ratsnakes, milksnakes, and just about anything else commonly bred in the hobby. It's definitely a "buyer beware" market, and knowledge is power....

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks for the help Doug... I really need to become a little more confident with ID's but these red-eyed devils really do throw me off.

Like you I have to admit it is rather a good looking critter... seems that Waldo has good luck with rescue animals.

Gerry

Sure thing Gerry. Billy (DISCERN) emailed me about it, so I came over to check things out.

I would confidently label it as a hobby amel nelsoni all day long. Calling it anything else just doesn't work at all..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

As the others mentioned, it's POSITIVELY not a Sinaloan milk simply because of the fact alone that it is an amel (albino). There is no such animal as an amel (albino) Sinaloan (L.t.sinaloae), even though some people label and sell them as such here and there. The amel nelsoni gene has been inadvertently crossed into Sinaloans even before the amel Nelson's milk ever existed (1993-94), but afterwards on purpose to produce more $2,000 animals due to the shortage of nelsoni in the hobby and the Sinaloans being very abundant. Yours there actually keys-out as a very typical L.t.nelsoni, and not a Sinaloan. With that being said, this certainly isn't to say that ther isn't, or cannot be any past Sinaloan geneflow in it's lineage though.

Anyway, all of it's meristic features are also very indicative of a SOLID textbook amel Nelson's milksnake (L.t.nelsoni) even though it's red body ring count (RBR) from neck to vent is slightly lower than some (at 14), so you should refer to it as a definite Nelson's if you want to represent it as accurately as possible from now on. To represent it as an amel "Sinaloan" is simply a farse and a blatant misrepresentation. It looks like a very nice nelsoni as a matter of fact, the way the white rings arch out dorsally VERY abrubtly and the tail being obscured with white (which is normally black) on most all nelsoni.

If someone told you it is a "Sinaloan", they obviously know ZERO about either subspecie's history.....plain and simple.

Have fun with it, I really like it to be quite honest, but not as a "Sinaloan"..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thank you Doug. This was actually a rescue just like the other milk in my post below this one. I didn't care one way or another what she is, just happy to have a ID so I know what I'm dealing with.
I very much love her vivid red coloring and white tail. I hope her white rings stay nice and white instead of yellowing out.

You're welcome. It was a very nice acquisition. I made an obvious typo in my first post regarding "amels" being crossed into Sinaloans before amels ever existed..LOL! I meant to say normals have been crossed with each other even before amel nelsoni ever existed, but especially afterwards to produce more high-dollar amels....

Anyway, see about the throat marking I mentioned on yours. It is either a straight-up pure nelsoni, or a more distant cross of the two...but it phenotypically keys out as nelsoni regardless.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Haha, I seen that typo and kept re reading it trying to make sense of what you were saying. Now I understand
Your answer about the neck ring is in my last post.

LOL!!,.....yeah, I bet you were really scratching your head there trying to make sense of it..HAHA!!...geeez!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>LOL!!,.....yeah, I bet you were really scratching your head there trying to make sense of it..HAHA!!...geeez!..

I just figured damn, doug is smart: he knows things I can't even begin to understand...