Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi guys, I have an adult male Bullsnake that is quite unusual. I aquired him as a hatchling at Daytona in 2010, along with two het sib females. I bred them for the first time this year, and got a total of thirteen babies from the two cluthes. The offspring range in coloration/mutation from albino, to reds, to yellows, to hypo, and normal-ish. I say "ish" because all have a "funky" hue twist to them. One in particular looks very much like the father did as a hatchling, which was just plain strange, and hard to describe. The adult male went through quite a dramatic change from hatch to what you see now. Just wondering if anyone has seen anything like this before. Thanks in advance for the feedback. Ty.

Looks alot like the bulls i hatch out here.
I just call them hypo or depending on their lightness superhypo's.
Some have more black pigment on the top and more red on the saddles like the stillwaters have but are mostly lighter than the stillwaters.
Maybe your hypo has some stillwater blood, maybe you should contact the breeder for the history.

cheers,
T.

Hey T, There are definite similarities between your first pictured animal and mine, particularly in the lighter colored centers of the scales that seem to be more prominent in the red, or redish/orange/pinkish colored scales. There may be some stillwater in them, as they seem to be tri-colored, changing color a couple of times from front to back. Like I said in the post, I've got some really funky looking babies from them this year. Not sure if I want to let any of them go at this point, at least until they get a little age on them, and start to color up. Keeping my fingers crossed, and hoping like most of us to stumble upon the next "big thing". Appreciate the input. Take care, Ty.

Gorgeous snake you have there my friend! I wish I knew what was going on with that snake! I have a 2003 male hypo bull I picked up in Daytona, that is similar, but a little more faded:

It's like when you look at these bulls, they look both hypo and albino, at the same time, but without the red eyes that albinos have.

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Genesis 1:1

All the animals here look great, the ones of the topic starter, the ones of Tanguy and the ones of Discern. All great specimens.

Those are awesome! If I remember right, there was a lady who sells these every year at daytona. She calls them peanut butter or jam or something like that. I really like them and almost picked up a pair.

I my opinion, it is a different line of hypo. Hypo lines are not compatable so if it is a new line, breeding it with Stillwater or Trumbower would result in normals.

Email me. I would like to pick some up next season. Can't do it this season.....

lucas jennings arts at live . com

take out the spaces and put an @ symbol.

Breeding them to either of the other known strains would produce double heterozygous for both wouldn't it ? They would appear normal or "wild-type"though.

No. It would be het for one of the two strains with no way of knowing which one.

Assuming the two traits are recessive,"incompatable" simply refers to the fact that the traits are expressed on two different "loci",of the DNA strand. Breeding two homozygous animals together would produce "normal-looking" double heterozygotes that could then be bred to each other to produce animals that would express both traits simultaneously. Just like patternless/albino,or axanthic/hypo.(for example.)

Unless you have molecular evidence or breeding evidence to back that up for the species involved, I'm not buying it. Genetics are highly varied. The traits you listed are totally seperate traits that code for drasitcally different things and would be located on totally seperate loci. The patternless gene codes for something totally different than the axanthic gene. One wipes out pattern, the other wipes out color genes.

The code for hypomelanism could be on the same locus for each different strain, not several different loci. For example, with ball pythons, hypo is not compatable and when breeding different hypo strains together, you don't get double hets. This is also seen with the different albino strains in balls. If you bred a lavender albino with a normal albino, you DO NOT get double hets. You get animals that are het for either strain with no way of knowing which is which.

I also have had direct contact with breeders who have been working with bull snakes longer than most of us. They too have said that hypo lines are incompatable and the resulting animals are het for either strain without know which is which.

Unless you can present evidence to the contrary,I think I'll stick with Mendel on this one.(I think you just backed me up in the first paragraph you wrote,btw.) ball python dilemmas aside,let's stick with bull snakes,until I see evidence that calls for a plausible explanation,I'm going to go out on a sturdier limb,and take the Ockham's Razor approach. Unless two homozygous phenotypes were so visually similar that a double expressive individual could not be reasonably discerned ,(like two incompatable strains of T negative albinism,perhaps.) I don't know how anyone could jump to the conclusion that one proven recessive trait can be "canceled out" by breeding it to another proven recessive trait???it simply doesn't make good sense,and the two "hypos",(Stillwater & Trumbower) are phenotypically different enough from each other,that I doubt they are genetically identicle.(MHO)

first off re-read. Second, not everything is simple mendelian. Third I have direct evidence disproving you from breeders. bulls aren't exactly new to the scene and I'm sure we would have seen double hypos by now. But keep arguing......maybe you talking enough will cause a spontaneous mutation allowing a double visual for a single trait. Ignore the fact that this has happened with any breeding.

No need to get huffy...it's called a discussion,which is how we learn & exchange information...it is the primary reason for these boards.sometimes people get touchy when someone points out a misconception.I apologize if I upset you,I guess I still don't understand how you arrived at your conclusion that's all,no hard feelings I hope.(?)

How about you not getting all bent out of shape over a simple discussion on a snake forum?

You need to chill out.
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Genesis 1:1

I really didn't mean for this to degenerate into a pi$$ing match,(I wasn't upset) I guess I was hoping for an explanation that made sense,or some evidence,if it really existed. I apologized to the many contributors of this Forum,and mostly to the thread starter,who just posted some great pics of a beautiful animal...R.
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Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

IMO, you have nothing to apologize for, as you did not produce the silly, juvenile attitude of, " back up your statements, brahh!!! "...followed by a rude comment. This is a forum that is supposed to be about learning and fun, with our beloved pits. Both of you were actually saying some interesting things, where I was into learning about the subject. You did nothing wrong.

But alas, such is the internet.
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Genesis 1:1

Not pissed either. If rain wants to do the for work like I did he would find out what I'm saying is correct. I posted my evidence more I'm moving on.