Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So I got a snake back in 2010. I bought it as a normal female Hognose. After getting a green phase hog, I noticed a lot of similarity and believe the snake may be that (it has no red pigment at all).

Anyway, the snake would never much over 120g. It would reach that point and stop eating. And when it would eat it was always super picky and often refused. After being outgrown by my other younger female hogs I began to consider that the snake was maybe a male. I showed it to some herpetologist friends and we all came to the conclusion that the snake was a male.

Before that, due to my own suspicions on the snake's gender, and being in the process of moving, all the males were housed in the same tub, this snake included.

Anywhere from a couple of days ago to a week ago the snake proved itself to be female by laying fertile eggs in its water dish. The eggs were recovered and seem to be okay (there was a lot of aspen bedding in the water dish).

Here is my main concern though. This snake bred (unintentionally) at 120g. And it just won't get far above that in weight. Should I keep the female and breed her even with the risk of breeding her below what is considered normal weight? Should I sell her as a pet? Or try to see if someone will take her on any maybe get her to eat more?

I'm not really sure what to do. She dropped a clutch of five large eggs, and 4 were good. Much better odds for a first than my other female (2 clutches, only one good egg). I'm worried that breeding her at such a low weight could cause serious harm or stress to the snake.
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

Accidentally hit post before I was done typing
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

She'll more than likely be just fine. She may even decide to kick in the feeding response now.

I bred a small female around 100 grams that just would not eat. She was a pain in my butt for 3 years. Finally I just decided to breed her. She laid a good clutch and then decided to eat like mad. She's now 350 grams and has laid 3 nice clutches.
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Hognose, Sand Boa & Ball Python Morphs

Greg Bennett | www.hognose.com

Okay! That gives me some hope then. Thanks Greg!
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

The problem with your information, you know, weights like 120g. IS, its recipe, something you read not based on the actual animal. Or reptiles for that matter. Its about type of husbandry or an approach to husbandry.

That said, it does not mean that information has no value, its not about the reptile, its about KEEPERS and non flexible husbandry. Or the part folks get mad at me for saying, recipe husbandry.

This case is a good example. Again, You recipe folks, do not get mad at me, if your doing great, then be confident in that.

I feel its better to understand the animals, then you can make adjustments, instead of of following out of context information.

Its absolutely normal for females to reproduce at a small size, its a very important part of survival. With reptiles, there is no set size to successfully reproduce. There is a range of sizes. Normally reptiles can and do reproduce at half their average size. Which is very small.

In nature, the first year of life, in fact the first few months is key to reproductive size. Nutritional support in nature is a key variable. Some years theres plenty of support others years, No Support. And everything inbetween.

THe small females are very important in maintaining populations. They do not require lots of energy to reproduce, so they produce in years large females cannot. This is very important to understand, as there is REASON for this happening, its not an accident, its a design.

In captivity, rules are made based on CAPTIVE support, which may or may not be good. In this case, nesting. Poor nesting is particularly hard on small females. Poor nesting causes the females to hold the eggs longer and small females are more effected by dehydration(in most cases chronic)

So yes, in captivity, poor nesting causes small females a higher percentage of failure. But its not about the small female, its about poor nesting. Failure is very preventable.

As I mentioned, and get crap for, poor/marginal nesting is NORMAL in captivity, and worse with rack system mentality. If you want to discuss this great, but no yelling at me or making it about me.

If your going to offer poor nesting, then its best to not allow small females to reproduce. If you offer suitable nesting, then there is no problem allowing small females to reproduce. its that simple.

As mentioned, small females can grow to normal size.

Again, folks get real sensitive about this kind of stuff, but its not about you or I, for that matter, its about the animals. And its absolutely normal for small females to reproduce. The question is, why is it problematic in captivity, that is the discussion, not calling names because keepers think its about them, or they will be reflected in poor lite, or whatever. Cheers

FR,

I can agree with you on animals sometimes havin to breed at lower weights in the wild. As an animal behaviorist I can also agree on it being beneficial.

But I have to wonder, did you even read my post?

I did NOT intentionally breed this animal. I thought she was a male, and not once did I see her lock-up with a male. Of course "poor nesting" was all that was available. I had no idea that a snake I believed to be male would be gravid. If I had know the snake was, I would have provided a proper nest area.

I don't appreciate the lecture. Whether it is your intention or not, you are coming across as insulting. I don't appreciate feeling like you are insinuating that I do not know how to care for my animals.
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

Females can and do breed very small. As long as they are hydrated, fed and have a nest spot they like, then there is usually no problem at all. When there is something not right, and a small female delays laying, then it can be a problem.

FR is correct. If we can provide what the females want in terms of food (easy), hydration (should be easy) and nest choice (most of us don't know this one), then breeding at small sizes in captivity would not be a risk to the females.

With kingsnakes, the size and depth of the nest makes a difference, as I have learned by doing. I don't know about hogs.

So you feel lectured by someone stating that its normal for hogs to reproduce at smaller sizes????? That was the lecture and it was not aimed at you, but all those who write or think its not good to breed then at 120grams. Which as you state, you agree with.

I then said, its about nesting. Which you made no mention of. Which by the way, is the most important part of my reply.

I said nothing about your female and the water bowl nesting. Not in any way, as you did state it was an accident.

Heres my "other point" Recipe husbandry, what that is, is instructions, without understanding. I stated its better to understand, then follow instructions. Following instructions is great for newbies, but then to advance past being a newbie, its best to understand the actual animal. Then you can make your own instructions.

I never said anything to YOU about your ability to care for your charges. But you did indicate your level of understanding, and sir, that is all I have to go by.

You stated, you thought that 120gram animal was a male. To be very clear, at 120grams, and with hognose, they are physically different. There its very easy to determine gender. Unless the tail was cut off. So that indicates a lack of experience. Yet I did not say anything about that.

There is a something weird about "recipe husbandry" and I am struggling to understand it. It appears to be like religion, in this case, religion is defined as blind faith. Folks follow instructions without questioning. If you say anything "different" to someone who is a believer, you get attacked. And thats what your doing.

I do not take keeping reptiles as religion, i take it as an oppertunity to learn. To me, learning is great fun. And with keeping, you have the oppertunity to apply what you have learned. Remember I am talking about me, not you or others. What would be great and why these dang forums exsist, is to learn and to share what you know. Doing that should create conversation, Which you did not take part of.

Heres the thing, I do not know everything or much, but the 50 years of doing this, I do know something about snakes.

In this case, I presented you with the oppertunity to learn. Instead, you take it as an oppertunity to feel insulted. Sir, that is your choice, personally, I do not care what you know or do not know, thats yours.

I feel my only task on forums is to allow folks to THINK, again, i feel that is fun, to just think. You do not have to believe, or do anything, just think!

In the end, you said your a fan of ethology, all you did was piss on a pole and defend your territory from possible threats. Cheers

“If your going to offer poor nesting, then its best to not allow small females to reproduce. If you offer suitable nesting, then there is no problem allowing small females to reproduce. its that simple.”

This Frank, amoung a few other of your statements, insinuates that I do not know how to provide proper nesting, and that I chose to let my female reproduce without doing so. If that is not what you meant, then you might wish to re-word your statements. Simply using words like “One” instead of “you” can make a huge difference in how someone interprets your writing.

Do understand that we cannot magically sense the emotions or facial expressions you may have to go along with your text. Therefore, something you mean innocently can very easily be taken as an attack. Using proper grammar and punctuation usually also helps in this matter.

“So you feel lectured by someone stating that its normal for hogs to reproduce at smaller sizes????? That was the lecture and it was not aimed at you, but all those who write or think its not good to breed then at 120grams. Which as you state, you agree with.”

No, I never stated I felt lectured on that. I agreed with what you said. As someone who has a Bachelors in Animal Behavior, it is a process that makes sense to me. I may have come to that conclusion myself before posting if I hadn’t heard a lot of the “don’t breed below this weight” from almost every member of the community. The fact that so many people say not to do it due to health problems concerned me. I was simply seeking reassurance with my posts from breeders who have more experience. Everyone (including you) who has replied, except for maybe one or two people, has reassured me that it is okay to breed at a lower weight. I’m not arguing that, and I’m not saying I feel lectured at all. The reassurance was what I asked for. And I agreed with you on it.

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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

What I felt attacked by was your poorly worded comment from before. It came across as a claim that I was intentionally breeding my female at a low weight without a proper nest area. As I mentioned above, it was possibly the wording of the sentence that made me perceive attack when you did not mean to do so.

“Heres my "other point" Recipe husbandry, what that is, is instructions, without understanding. I stated its better to understand, then follow instructions. Following instructions is great for newbies, but then to advance past being a newbie, its best to understand the actual animal. Then you can make your own instructions.”

This too makes sense. Of course life doesn’t follow a recipe. You have to be flexible to deal with animals. That’s a given. I have to be flexible every day in my life or work or I could risk death. That’s what life and survival is about. There is no recipe for that, not one that will work 100% of the time, as proven by all the snakes that breed at a lower body weight, or the neonates that won’t eat no matter how hard you try.

“But you did indicate your level of understanding, and sir, that is all I have to go by.”
Um, actually, I’m a female. Just an FYI. Not that you could have known. Apparently I pick very masculine usernames, lol.

“You stated, you thought that 120gram animal was a male. To be very clear, at 120grams, and with hognose, they are physically different. There its very easy to determine gender. Unless the tail was cut off. So that indicates a lack of experience. Yet I did not say anything about that.”
No, you didn’t say that then, but you’re sure as heck pointing it out now. How am I supposed to feel not-attacked in regards to your earlier statement when you are attacking my experience here?

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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

I know that the tails are different between the sexes. I even pointed that out to my fellow herpetologist when he probed her. I said “But she has the tail of a female. At least it’s shorter than the males I have.” And then he pointed out a bulge right past her cloaca, which he thought indicated hemipenes. He also probed the animal and found the probe to go in farther than it should with a female.

And before you say anything about his experience, know that he has been in this field for a very, very long time. He’s done his research, and worked with snakes longer than most anyone else I know.

“There is a something weird about "recipe husbandry" and I am struggling to understand it. It appears to be like religion, in this case, religion is defined as blind faith. Folks follow instructions without questioning. If you say anything "different" to someone who is a believer, you get attacked. And thats what your doing.”
Oh, so really?! Now you’re the one under attack? HA!
I fail to see how I attacked you with my post in any way. I simply mentioned I felt you were insulting me. While I am trying not to be mean while writing this, I’m having a hard time not fighting back in self-defense. In one post you have gone from claiming your innocence, to insulting me, to now claiming that you are the victim. All in response to my claim that I felt insulted by what you had written. In the real world, this is known as drama.

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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

“In the end, you said your a fan of ethology, all you did was piss on a pole and defend your territory from possible threats. Cheers”
I fail to see how saying that I felt insulted by your comment is akin to pissing on a pole. I wasn’t defending territory. I read what you wrote (I’ll quote it again in case you’ve forgotten) “If your going to offer poor nesting, then its best to not allow small females to reproduce. If you offer suitable nesting, then there is no problem allowing small females to reproduce. its that simple.” As if you were claiming I would intentionally breed without providing a proper nesting area. If that was a mistake, and you didn’t mean to offend me, then just say so. Say “I’m sorry, that wasn’t how I intended the comment.” And then try to explain to me how you did mean it. Don’t keep arguing over something so stupid. And if you consider this pissing on a pole, it’s more like growling back at a thread. You made a snide comment about my inexperience a second time, and I have a right to defend my person. Not territory. Person.

Also, please note the proper use of grammar and spell check while writing. Others should learn to do the same.

Note: Sorry this had to be broken up so much. It wouldn't let me fit it all under one post. It was 3 full pages of stuff.
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

Don't let anyone make you feel bad. I asked about one of my hogs here about a month ago, too bad I didn't have a photo. Hognose are like any other animal, and people too, nobody's 100% male or female chemically, physically or visually! Since then my "female" has let out sperm plugs and slimmed out a bunch. I was probably feeding him too much, considering I bought a "female" after all! Counted the scales, 40 scales, in comparison to a female, I counted 30. Actually counting scales could be helpful in those odd in-between cases...I think I alluded to this in my original post but nobody answered...

I agree most hogs are very easily visually sexed, probably the vast majority (90-95%). But I'll be damned if somebody's going to make me feel bad for being unsure on one of them. Especially when it was sold as a female from an old timer in the snake community. (Who I don't fault. At all. He is awesome!) I commend you on being diligent enough to save the eggs too, some people ignore their males (not insinuating anything about anybody over here in the hog area, chill your pills guys).

And let me add before I'm berated for my opinion by anybody that I KNOW counting scales is not 100% accurate either...I said "it could help" with the pudgy boys or slim gals, IN ADDITION to probing, popping or visually sexing. For hognose more than most, probably. I'm sure there are boys with 35, etc. etc. etc., you will always get a snake to surprise you once in a while, but maybe this would help too if and when somebody gets another oddball?

Weird, it cut out my greater than and less than symbols, and removed the text with them...I said "some males will have less than 40 or 35, some females more than 30 or 35, etc. etc. etc." ...

The most confusing aspect for me was that while I had bought it as a female, it ate about as often and as much as my males, sometimes less.

While the other 3 females I own eat like pigs, lol. They can't get enough food.

So I started thinking it was a male. I totally forgot to check on the scale count, that is the one method that slipped my mind. I wil, try to keep it in mind for the future.

The other confusing parts of this whole scenario is that it probed as a male, and like it said earlier, even appeared to have wide spot on the tail where the hemipenes would be. Yet the tail was at least half the length of the tails on my males, maybe even shorter.

Lol, I've never heard of Hognose being to ambiguous. I'm really glad to finally know though, and I will be sure to keep a close eye on her in the future. We were super lucky with eggs this time, and they are doing really well in the incubator. Next time we may not catch them quick enough.

Haha, I just had a thought. Wouldn't it suck if one of the eggs hatched out an albino or some other recessive morph? I'd have no idea who the father was. Maybe I could take the snakes on Maury.

Thank goodness that's super unlikely.
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

Honestly I think it might just depend on who you get the snake from, and what their schedule was. Not saying it's the case, but some people don't appreciate a hog's higher metabolism and feed less than you would hope they would have. So she'd be on a weird schedule for a hog. But they can be picky anyway!

Probing for hognose doesn't seem too common, I guess people trust the visual method and there's not too much data on it? There are cases when one hemipene pocket will go farther than the other, so both have to be checked, but females can have those pockets that appear to be masculine externally or probe deeper...

LOL...Maury...that poor gal...might be fun to hold on to the babies...it's fun to have a surprise, hope you get the best result possible!!!

Sorry about my poor use of english. It is what it is. I am doing the best I can.

About you, hahahahahahahahaha I may be wrong, but these forums are about conversations, which means, in order to get some meaning, we, you and I. must exchange replys.

If anything we talk about has real meaning, I would think it would require a back and forth exchange.

In my mind, you(anybody) could write a book on something like nesting, yet, you and that does means you, think I can do it in one paragraph. You see, when you feel like there are gaps or something missing in what I say, I also feel that way about what you or others say.

What I see as the problem is, many here, take gifts as an insult. If I mention something like nesting, its because I do not think its understood. I do so as a gift. I am giving you something it took many years to learn, and with the help of many others.

Yet, many here take that type of thing as an insult, you know, like I am ragging on you for not knowning something. This boggles my mind.

Anyway, I posted something about nesting down below to Wild about hogs.

I thank you for explaining. When you say that you are not intending insult, then I won't take offense.

Like I said, it's hard to understand how people are phrasing stuff over the Internet. Even just one word can make someone feel attacked, or make them nod their head in agreement.

I don't mean to make digs at your English, I just sometimes have difficulty following your posts, and as I mentioned, simple wording can make all the difference.

I have no issue discussing differences in opinion on keeping hogs, as I believe I stated earlier. I am, in fact, curious as to your methods.
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

Please understand, I do not mean to insult anyone. What I say is not about people as individuals, its normally about the animals.

I have been breeding herps, including snakes for 51 years and its always been about the animals. They are the subject, they are the "BOOK".

In the early days, thats all there was, there was no exsisting succusseful keepers to copy. So that is how I learned, to study the animals. To me, they are always "right" and we keepers are always just guessing.

All my husbandry is based on the subject(the animals) and attempting to reproduce something I saw in nature.

So yes, at this time, I am different. I learned in a completely different way.

With hogs, that is also my area of concern, what makes hogs, hogs? I have nothing against recipe or sweater box approaches, but normally they do not express what makes a species a species. They express, the least amount of behavior. Down to the bare minimum.

So please understand, I am not attempting to insult keepers. If what I say is of no interest, then they can choose not to use anything I say.

Whats interesting to me is, folks want to benefit from my experience, but it has to FIT them. Each one wants me to FIT them in a unique way. That is not going to happen.

Some here only want me to confirm what they are doing. If I don't, I am a bad guy. I am neither good or bad. I am about the animals. The animals are good, all of us keepers are just trying.

Its kinda simple, how could I be about any of you, when I do not know you. Most here do not use their name, so how would I know you. So I would think, taking things personal is out of the question. Did I call you a name? Did I say, your a, this or that? no I did not. You do understand, you can twist any post on here to something insulting if you want. I guess its about what you want.

The one person here that thinks hes the moderator, says all manner of junk about me, but he does not know me at all. So I do not take anything he says as meaningful. In fact, behaviorally speaking, its more about him then me. I understand to many, its a social site. Its not to me. Its about hognose. We are just care givers.

Lastly I fully understand, I am not for everyone, I do not want to be. I am interested in keepers with similar goals. In this case, hognose for being hognose, and not particually about morphs, and there is nothing wrong with morphs, its just that should not superceed the species. Not entirely. Cheers

that was one of the most intelligently written and calmly written posts I ever read...

ball forum would have written it alot shorter...and he would not have liked it at all...trust me...

....good stuff....!!!...and yes...husbandry can ALWAYS be improved on....I learned something already...and have just started reading this thread...and I bred ALOT of stuff for 22 years plus....(never a hog)

....Thanxx...all have fun...all good luck....!!!!

....
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........JY

I read enough....this forum has parental issues beyond ball python of old days...I'm gone...LOL...no way I am starting out again with hognosed snakes....wow...this place reminds me of the milkhead forum...only worse....

PLEASE NOONE respond to any of my posts.....noone...

I don't do cliques well....

..>>>>>>running>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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........JY

Pshhh
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**Joe Schmidt-
3rdroomreptiles.com

If being different then you guys is annoying, then holy moly, I am that, hahahahahahahahahahaha

ALso, you folks are super territorial, but then, so are the snakes you keep. So I do not expect you to be different then that

you folks are super territorial, but then, so are the snakes you keep. So I do not expect you to be different then that

You are right Frank, we are territorial but only on the notion that we try to keep this forum, our "territory" as you say, Troll-Free! In other words, everybody that is respectful towards others, asks and/or shares something of worth for the community and doesn't have a god-complex is more than welcome to join our ranks and be a part of this community.

You on the other hand are disrespectful towards practically everybody that doesn't bow before you, you add little worth to the community with your self-indulgent answers that often don't relate to the direct questions asked and you also have a huge god-complex which very few here are tolerant of.

Ironically, you claim that we are just like the snakes we keep which means that since you so often claim to be an expert on behaviors of snakes and try to come to an understanding for them would mean that you would come to some kind of equilibrium with us as well. Being that you equate us to our snakes means that if you cannot find a means to respecting or understanding us, how in the world can you even relate to the very snakes you accuse us of being like? You sir have shown yet another example of your idiocy!

If being different then you guys is annoying, then holy moly, I am that, hahahahahahahahahahaha

Frank, everybody here is different, some folks being very very different. But the one thing that brings us together is our love of hognose and the respect that we have for others that not only share the same passion but have the same respect for everybody else despite differences of opinion. Where you differ from everybody here is that you are disrespectful towards everybody that doesn't subscribe to your feeble attempts at being a herpetological god. If you were just to offer your opinions based on your experiences without feeling the need to bash those that do things differently, that would be one thing. Instead, you have very little experience to share that doesn't render on belittling those that do things differently based on the many more years of husbandry of hognose snakes than you have.

Sure, you might adopt a more natural means of keeping your snakes and have different ideas and goals for keeping hognose, nobody here has ever berated you for that! Yet you always claim that we do. Well, I challenge you to show me an instance where someone here has challenged you on your goals of wanting to keep hognose in the environments you claim. You can't! Yet, I can find and quote many instances not only where you make these false claims but also show many instances how you berate those that do things differently which shows that you are not only a liar but a hypocrite!

I would also like to point out that we have seen many new people here other than yourself and you seem to be the only one that keeps attracting a bunch of negativity? Can you guess why Frank? Everybody else that is new here seems to fit in just fine. Doesn't that make you wonder why Frank? If we are so territorial as you claim, then by all means, why are you the only one that is having a difficult time trying to fit in here?

The truly sad and tragic thing for you Frank is that even in your 60's, you are no wiser than you were when you were a child as that is how you are acting now, like a petulant child that throws a temper tantrum and makes everybody else miserable when they don't get their way.

Just in the last couple days alone, I've already gotten a couple of emails from people that no longer want to participate on this forum because of your insolent ways and all the drama you bring forth. If that doesn't speak volumes to you, well, it sure does to me. However, I'm not going to let you bully me or anybody here so that you can try to take over this forum for your own twisted ego driven agenda!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Sorry Troy, Its you that set the rules for whats IN(in your mind) and what is out. The funny part is, its not your territory.

I do love hogs, always have, like I said, bred them 35-40 years ago.

Also, I stated, my intentions DIFFER from most here, and that you guys are doing great with morphs, really great.

What is causing the problem is, I do have the experience to add to your knowledge. Not so much hognose knowledge, but basic husbandry. That is what chaps your groupy hides. Or so it appears.

What is common and basic to me appears to be lost or unknown with the current "recipe" taught keepers. Or at least many of you. If you already are aware, then why would it bother you?

Such things as what type of nesting PREVENTS egg binding and problems with smaller females, Or how to tell when a female is going to be receptive, without timing. Or even "popping hemipenes"(to evert) Those are skills to master with husbandry.

Even the most basic of husbandry skills like gender is a bit lost here and hogs are about the easist colubrid.

And a few others, I have to ask, when I see these things, should I keep quite and watch herps suffer????? I have to say, you appear to want herps, in this case, hogs to suffer.

Sir you make statements about me not learning, as i aged, when you have no idea about me or my youth. I was raised in the ghetto and boxed and wrestled my whole youth, that and herping. Which is meaningless, other then, I do have a fighters approach and when I was young, I did not hold it back. Now, I am just not afraid of you or any of you. I do respect your hog accomplishments, but I do not fear you.

Both those sports are individual, which means, it took responsibility for my actions. Keeping herps is the same.

With that in mind, I have no idea why you or others here, think anything I say is important. You do not have to do a thing. No one is going to force you to do anything I say, in fact, no one is going to force you to even read my posts. Those are your choices.

I never called you names, or said what your doing is bad. THe problem seems to stem from when I say something different and you seem to be afraid it makes you look bad. That must be true, because why else would you care??????

Back to territoty, This is not your forum, You cannot say, who reads or posts here. If you want that, then start your own forum, its easy, everyone can do it. Then indeed you can control that too. Until then, please do not read my posts. And please, right, wrong or anywhere in between, I have the right to say or write what I want, within the TOS of kingsnake. YOu are not my moderator, so stop with the personal attacks.

If I say something that makes you feel stupid, then maybe its time you stop and THINK about that. Cheers

p.s., if you keep trolling(that is what your doing) i will report you to KS. If you disagree with what I say, that is material for conversation, but to attack me, thats not your job. Anything about me or my personality, or how i write is PERSONAL, and not subject to your approval. Again, if you do not like any of that, do not read it.

"Such things as what type of nesting PREVENTS egg binding"

I am asking genuinely, would you like to elaborate for hognose if you have the time? Thank you...

Hi, Your very welcome to ask.

In most cases, snakes are nested in small clear boxes, Which are put in the cage, X amount of days after the pre-egg laying shed. Some manner of moist substrate is included.

This has nothing to do with snakes, its what keepers do. And it kinda works. It will work OK for strong animals, but will fail for small or marginal indivivuals. Even thought it works, its very foreign to the females.

In nature, females go to nesting areas, in the fall and normally overwinter near where they are going to nest. Sometimes the move there in the spring. They stay at the nesting site(nearby or exactly) for a fairly long period of time. They normally lay there eggs in burrows some distance in the ground, in plant material, leaflitter, etc, that is secure with temps, humidity and its always dark, they never lay in the lite. And its normaly down, how far depends on the temps in that area.

That is whats normal to the average colubrid.

In captivity, we do not address all of that, or any of that. Other then the temps and humdity.

While there is no need to address all that. We surely can address such things as lite and depth.

I use fairly large tupperware storage containers, the ones that are a couple feet deep. I fill them 2/3s full of moist, not wet substrate, sand/coco stuff mix, about 50/50, but that is not crictial.

I place a piece of glass about halfway down(that is for me) and hide boards, water bowl, heat lite etc, like a regular cage.

I put the females in about a week before they shed. They normally shed and lay the next day. They normally dig down and build a nesting chamber under the piece of glass.

After they lay, they come up and cover all burrows that lead to the nest.

Heres a picture of a kingsnake nest, hogs, pits, etc all nest the same.This is with the glass taken out.

You can use the glass as a viewing window and not disturb the female, i have pics somewhere.

As you can see, the nest has a structure and a design. When they nest, they coil with the tail on the inside and crawl in circles, deposting the eggs in the middle. THis leaves a space the diameter of the female, all around the eggs.

When they have this type of nesting, they deposit the eggs quickly, normally within a few days of the shed. And lose very little weight. The longer they hold the eggs, the more they dehydrate. Which is what causes most egg binding. And its what is so stressful to small females.

THey also love(choose to) lay in the same nest clutch after clutch, which is common in nature.

The key points are, nesting is picked from an area much larger then most cages. In other words, you cannot put a big box in a little cage. So don't do that, take the snake out of those small cages and let it nest in a "nesting cage".

I had five of these nesting cages setup and never had them all occupied at the same time.

Lastly its not a all or nothing type of thing. If its very inconvient, then only do this with "problematic" females.

Once you have done this properly, you cannot see doing anything less. And you think about more, as the females take to this so well.

Now for the FR stuff, looking at that picture, then seeing clear boxes with eggs scattered all about, gives me a stomachacke. I wish it didn't. I hope this helped

Thanks for posting this here. I remember this from the kingsnake forum. I implemented this a few years ago for Cal kings after seeing you first post it. The results were clear - females laid sooner. The less time females keep eggs inside them, the less chance of egg binding.

Is the glass horizontal or vertical in the container? If its horizontal, I'm guessing it doesn't extend the entire length of the container?

Just trying to picture the layout. I do like the idea. Keeping hogs in tubs is a recent design for me. As someone who worked in a zoo, I generally prefer naturalistic and correct enclosures. So I used to keep one or two hogs in something as close to their normal habitat as possible.

Then I got more and more of them, and keeping them all like that just wasn't feasible for my small little apartment. So I switched to tubs. If I had a house, sure, but until then I'm forced to keep my hobby/passion/love for Hognose in a more space consolidated environment.
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

Thank you kindly sir, I will be adding this to my hognose notebook!

So, in the wild, the female would be there for quite a while before laying. When you transfer her to the "laying enclosure", do you move HER usual decor into it so she's more at home, smells her own scent etc. ??? And, over the coco/sand mix, do you put a layer of her normal substrate?

How do you cover the enclosure? I guess a wire mesh of some sort, to let the heat lamp get to her in the day?

That is a great photo, I would love to see more if you have them. It makes sense to let her get comfortable and make a structure for her babies, must lead to a lot less stress. I will definitely try this in the future, the first chance I get. Cheers!

I too would like to see more pictures.
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

Hi again

You brought up some great points. Yes, I always move the cage furniture with the snake, and not just with nesting cages. They know their turf, by their scent. Whenever I move an individual, I move its scent with it. It does help.

Also, about stress and nesting. After decades of watching snakes nest, in nature. It becomes clear, they do not place their eggs in areas to hatch the eggs. They place their eggs in areas that have the highest survival rate for the hatchlings. Which normally means, at or near the spot the adults hatched. Whats important is, neonate survival, not eggs hatching.

Females seek areas that support neonates. Which is more then just areas suitable to hatch eggs. We as normal keepers, do not think like that that. We normally take it to the bare minimum, one step better then the water bowl or simply dropping the eggs around the cage.

So depth, temp range, humidity range and security are what is important. Whats interesting is, its not hard to do.

About the lid, again, I am different. I always place the lites IN the cage. I use lites that are not hot enough to burn the animals. So I screw a lite fixture to the inside of the lid. Then step the the surface like a normal cage. I do have some more pics, I just have to find them. Cheers

"After decades of watching snakes nest, in nature. It becomes clear, they do not place their eggs in areas to hatch the eggs. They place their eggs in areas that have the highest survival rate for the hatchlings. Which normally means, at or near the spot the adults hatched. Whats important is, neonate survival, not eggs hatching"

How would there ever be any "survival" if there is no "hatching"?

Wouldn't the females already be in a suitable place that supports both? Why on earth else would she be there in the first place then? If she isn't, then they don't hatch OR survive. Last time I checked, it's tough for a snake to survive without hatching first.

And how on earth would you ever know if each one did or didn't that was EVER hatched in that area?...

OH!!-OH!!-OH!! I know the answer!............you wouldn't..

Frank, why are you always trying to make such a "Dr. Doolittle" deal out of everything, especially the very obvious? (oops!, why did I ask).

She would be there just like any others would be because they also hatched fairly close by and of course have fed around that area too.

I don't have to act like I follow them around 24/7 with a note pad to know this Frank. Why are you portraying it to be any different than being basically just that simple?.....

"Which normally means, at or near the spot the adults hatched

See what I mean? That was the obvious part of how it all works, so the rest of your long "blah-blah-blah" was pointless.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

What the heck is the matter with you. Are you in love with me? dang, you get all giddy and forget how to read. Doug, I am not talking to you, so stop with the horseshat. Bye

LOL!!,....I'm sure even you saw how ridiculous your comments were after reading my post...
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I agree!

What you said......
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Genesis 1:1

Frank could even piss-off Mr.Rogers with his extremely insulting and narcissistic abilities.

I totally simpathize with ALL of you here, believe me.

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

But don't forget Doug, Frank's insults and narcissism are his "gifts" to us and we should be thankful for them.

Karma knows that I've tried to enlighten Frank, but you can't enlighten someone that has a burned out bulb.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Yep, no different than over on the kingsnake forum.

Check this out and tell me if it doesn't look very familiar to you guys?.....(facepalm)

If you didn't even see who the poster was before you clicked on it, you would no in an INSTANT who typed the post..

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=2004980,2005007

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Frank is the Jim Jones of the evangelical side of herp keeping, always ready to preach and hand out his Kool-Aid for anybody who is willing to drink it.

Sure, there are merits to what Frank says from time to time, but the hypocrisy of it all is that no matter how much anybody tries to replicate nature, they will ultimately fail to mimic even the smallest percentage of the environment, stimuli and food that these animals will encounter in the wild which ultimately elicits the most natural of behaviors. So regardless of Frank's incessant ranting about natural setups, the best way, if Frank is to have any valid point at all, is to just not keep any pets at all so that they all can revel within the natural world around them because even the most elaborate setup that you try to make as realistic as possible will be a mere fractional imposter that will no more elicit true behaviors than someone who puts ceramic skulls and plastic vines in their vivarium. Case in point, how many people that keep captive born Western Hogs have adults that will feign death? Hatchlings sometimes will do it, but usually only the first couple of days or so. After that, they all become conditioned to being in captivity! However, I've heard of too many instances of wild adults that will play dead all too commonly. It's just the nature of the beast Frank, that captivity, regardless of how natural your setup appeals to you, will still have an adverse effect on the animal's behavior in captivity. Period!

Trust me, I come from the mentality of natural setups as I used to keep expensive exotic Amazonian fish over 20 years ago and my bible back then was a book called The Optimum Aquarium (which I still have although I no longer keep fish). I had a 50 gallon that mimicked most of what is shown in that book, beautiful aquatic plants overflowing out of the tank lit by metal halide lights and filtered with a wet/dry filter as well as a substrate heating system. I spent literally thousands of dollars on my tanks and they were literally works of living art! But the truth is, I had friends and fellow hobbyists that kept some of the same fish that I did and their's were no less healthy than mine and the behaviors were pretty much the same. Of course fish are a completely different animal than reptiles are, but the point still stands.

The thing is, many reptiles are fairly simple-minded animals and can be kept successfully in captivity if you understand and can provide the basics that that particular species needs. Sure, you can go all out and setup the most awesome display in the world and as natural as you can hope to get it, but the truth is, the snakes will rarely notice the difference IF, and I will reiterate this again, their basic needs are met. I've seen people have elaborate setups for their Balls, guess what they do, they just lay in a hide. I've seen awesome setups for GTP's, but what do they typically do, they lie on a branch. Big Burmese within a huge display at a zoo? Yep, they just lie there. Like my aquarium comparison, I've seen fancy big setups for many types of colubrids and they act no differently than those in simple basic setups. So where is the actual scientific proof to the contrary that Frank is right about these animals becoming less active and showing less behaviors if kept in artificial environments especially tubs? I'm willing to bet that there is none, it's just his opinion, nothing less. The one big truth though is that all of these animals become more domestically docile and calm because they are no longer part of the food chain, they are the apex predator. In the wild, these animals will exhibit many behaviors not seen in captivity simple because in the wild, they too are on the menu for some other animal, so many defensive and aggressive behaviors will be exhibited because the real world is far more competitive than we can ever hope of replicating within a domestic capacity. Think about it, while this is a very important reality, it's also just one of many factors that elicit many behaviors in wild animals not found in captive animals.

Frank goes on and on about the lack of behaviors exhibited by us so-called "recipe shoebox" keepers. Well, his assumptions are based on his own prejudice against those of us who do not worship at his alter. Sure, some snakes are kept in such small environments that they exhibit little activity and usually the only excitement they get is either on feeding/cleaning day or when they are being bred, but the truth is, that's not always the case for everybody that keeps their snakes in tubs, it just depends on that particular keeper and what specific type of tub setup they are offering their animals.

For me, even in some of my more simpler tub setups I've witnessed many types of behaviors from the majority of my hognose especially using rabbit pellets as it's a great substitute for burrowing and has more weight than shavings do which forces the snake to use more strength and persistence to burrow into it. However, some will actively burrow beneath them (and you can sometimes see trails when peering through the bottom of the tub) while other individuals show no interest in burrowing and spend most of their time hiding underneath their waterbowl (I used waterbowls that are hollow underneath). Most usually come out and actively search for food when they are hungry. So, on feeding day, that's when you really get a lot of behaviors exhibited, some will leap out of the tub trying to grab the mouse you are trying to put in the tub, some will coil and hiss and sometimes even spray musk at you, some will just look at you calmly until you put the mouse in with some eating it right away, some striking it until they think they've killed it, others will poke and prod the thing for a while, while others might be a bit more shy and wait until you are out of sight or when the lights are turned out. But once they've all eaten, they remain inactive for several days while they quietly digest their meals.

The bottom line reality is, many many behaviors are exhibited in hognose kept in tubs despite Frank's rabid ignorant dialogue to the contrary. Sure, I think it's great that Frank wants to keep his specimens in a far different environment and I respect him for that as well as him sharing his experiences and I've never said otherwise despite his false claims of me saying such things. What I, and apparently many many others, can't stand about Frank is his constant condescension, berating and cowardly labeling and attacking of those of us that choose to do things differently than he does even though he's always complaining that it is everybody else that singles him out for his methods. He's obviously made this claim many times here of which I've challenged him to prove where even one person has talked negatively of his keeping methods and he cannot conjure up any such proof, so that only makes him a delusional liar!

So Frank, I say this to you, I think it's great that you want to incorporate an artificial "natural" setup for your animals and I also think it's of benefit to the community for you to share your experiences which might prove of interest or benefit to others. However, your knowledge is only worth as much as the amount of respect you give to the rest of us. Your sanctimonious attitude actually loses you an audience than gaining you one, and that's a fact from phone calls and emails I've received from people that no longer wish to participate on this forum because of you. Being that you've been here just a short time, I'd say that's quite an accomplishment!

And last but not least...

One gentleman who I never met before until the other day entered into a discussion some of us were having about Frank's disrespect towards other keepers and this is what he said "I know FR... he knows a lot. A WHOLE lot. He's an expert. He's a herpetological genius. But a DOUCHEBAG. And none of the former makes up for the latter."

What else is there to say after that?
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

I actually wrote a paper while interning at a zoo just before I graduated on pretty much the same thing. I observed a timber rattlesnake in a realistic natural enclosure and compared counts of behavior to those recorded from wild specimens.

No matter now much I wanted to claim similarity, the captive animal was not behaviorally the same as the wild one. It had adjusted enough to still breed in captivity, so either the set-up wasn't radically different from nature enough to prevent that, or the animal had acclimated and in the nature of snakes and the honey badger, just didn't give a [bleep].

But yeah, even in a zoo where we strive for making enclosures as realistic as possible, we still fail at mimicking nature.

I asked a friend once about keeping kraits, and he said even people who kept them in massive sections of water (think roped off sections of sea) failed. The animals would still die, even with an almost perfect replication of nature (I mean, really. How much closer can you get than an actual piece of nature?).
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

That is just too darn funny! Because I have used the very same poison "Kool-Aid" analogy on the kingsnake forum many times in the past for the very same nonsense pulled over there..LMAO!!!

Looks like MOST folks do have some good common sense and can easily see right through the thick smoke being blown...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

It is not altogether uncommon for hognose both in the wild and in captivity to produce fertile clutches at this size.
I remember collecting 2 females in one week that both laid fertile clutches. One was under 100 grams prior to laying and the other was just over 100 grams. I only ever remember 1 other small wc gravid female a friend found but she was just under 100 grams AFTER laying.

In captivity I have had males and females breed at 6 months. I have heard of males breeding at 5 months.

In recent years a few breeders began telling others NOT to breed their hogs at under 200 grams for females. Some had quoted breeding problems like egg binding, stunted growth, etc. While these things might occur in small females it has been my experience, as well as several of you here, that these same factors can affect large females as well.

I wouldn't worry with selling her. She may well jump-start just like greg stated.

Good luck with her!
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Thank you,
Kevin Rhodes

http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc314/lifesciences/?action=view�t=09-09hognose001.jpg

Thank you for easing my fears. I'd never heard of a captive hog breeding under 200g and was fed the more common "don't do it info".

It would appear however, that breeding lower than 200 is more common than I thought.

Hopefully things will work out. I may try to keep her around. Especially since I know for sure she's a female now and not another male.
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

I'm sure she'll be fine by next year unless you think she experienced any trauma. If you're that worried about her maybe give her 2014 off, but that would be pushing it probably? I bet it happens more often than anybody hears or reports, too.

Certainly wild snakes don't obsess over a scale's reading before running into a beau. The "ideal" weight for mating in captivity seems like more of a guidline to prevent small clutches, complications etc. Best of luck!

Oops, naughty keyboard