Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all, First time posting so hopefully this is the correct place. I have a Mexican Black Kingsnake, he is about 22-24 inches in length. Whenever I fed him (thawed)frozen food, he would always very gently take the pinkie, would never bite it unless he had the head and would not strike. Today I fed him what I assume is his first live pinkie, and it worried me. At first he bit it and held it. After a minute, he sort of half constricted it. He held it in a bear hug for about 5 minutes, then released it. He let it go and the pinkie started walking around. Then he went face to face and bit it on the head. He proceeded to eat it alive. Luckily the defensive capabilities of the pinkie is not good but when I upgrade to mice, he may become fatally scratched. Even after he had the head and upper body down, the feet were still kicking and struggling. Should I continue to feed live pinkies and hope he learns to kill first, or stick to frozen?

You can always do the fist test with live mice to determine their defensive capabilities; hold the live mouse in your hand and squeeze enough to elicit a reaction. If it can bite you it should be pre-killed before giving it to your snake.

Alternatively just always feed pre-killed items to your snake.

Mama pyro chowing down after laying clutch.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Many hatchling and young snakes will eat live pinkies without constricting them first. As they grow and their live prey becomes larger, bonier, and more resistant, the constricting instinct comes on like gangbusters. That being said, I recommend using f/t instead of live whenever possible. I'd rather not risk the live prey disfiguring the snake.

Good luck!

Tom

Two reasons to stick with frozen:

1) Out of respect for your reptiles, you protect them from being injured by a food item.

2) There are people who don't see value in the life of a reptile and kill snakes indiscriminately. Why be equally insensitive by subjecting mice to that when you can feed your reptiles humanely-killed frozen food instead? We can't expect others to be sensitive to the feelings of reptiles if we're insensitive to a mammal life form.

I fully agree. If the snake eats F/T just fine (which it does), there is no reason to subject rodents to any kind of suffering. If the snake adamantly refused all dead prey offerings and trickery, then feeding live would have some warrant. In this case I see absolutely none.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I agree as well. I have a thing for unecessary suffering of animals.

I apalls me when people hit deer or small animals left to suffer on the side of the road. I used to call 911 and ask for a LEO to come out and shoot the animals. But as many times before they say they will send an iffcixer but an hour or two later the animals is still there suffering. Now i just shoot te animal myself.

There is nothing worse than an animal (box trurtle, snake, possum ect) to be sitting on teh side of the road with its guts hanging out and cooking in 100F sun. No reasonable excuse of a human should allow this.Period!!
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With the above three opinions in mind. there are more sides to this coin.

First, the mice have to die, Why is it better for a human to kill mice, then allowing a snake to do what it is designed to do. If you didn't keep the snake in a box, it would be killing its own prey. Its what they do and its their nature. We do it folks and if you thinking what we do is humane, you may want to look into that. Its not humane because someone else does it.

You as keepers are responsible for the death of the rodents you feed to snakes.

It could be argued that its our nature to consume prekilled food. And we are forcing our nature on wild animals. Its not their nature. These are snakes known for being predators.

Also, not allowing animals to do what they "normally" do could be considered disrespectful to that animal.

Its my personal opinion, that we should allow as much natural behavior as we can. I am not saying you have of feed live prey, but please allow the snakes some manner of life.

Consider, a life in a box, with nothing to do, is not life. Its in a BOX.

I do wonder, why we have to control everything a snake does, no dirt, no leaves, not nothing that is normal. Next, folks are going to require feeding snakes veggie dogs. Veggies were alive too you know.

What is funny(odd) is these mice we are talking about are all going to die, they are feeder mice. I have to wonder how you know whats the best way for a mouse to die. Again, my personal opinion, If I am going to be killed, I want to die fighting, not slaughtered. But then, its only my opinion about me.

My opinion about snakes and mice is, let them do what they do. Take me out of it. Which means, feed them live, dead, F/t, whatever.

Lastly, I would think with the additude of prekilled only, it should be linked to, not keeping snakes in boxes in the first place.

OK I do find this odd, take them out of nature, keep them in little boxes with nothing natural, then be so humaniterian that you only feed prekilled. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm This smacks of some manner of rationalization that stems from keeping animals in boxes in the first place. Time to see a shrink.

My last opinion, humans are really silly creatures

Yeah, the deal with boxes bothers me, too. I try to give them the biggest boxes I can with lots of interesting crevices and textures, ect, so at least their life in a box is somewhat interesting. I wish I could build a walk in aviary of sorts, like I did with my budgerigars to enable them to fly around and do fun bird stuff. For the snakes a big room with a rock wall and a little stream and natural light; and some way to have it escape proof!

I kill the mice if they can bite the snake as I don't want the snake to get bit in the eye. I have seen wild snakes with bit eyes and other wounds (life is hard in the wild) so I aim for safety, but not have the snakes have a sterile boring life with no interesting things in their habitat.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

My last opinion, humans are really silly creatures

Yes we are and that is why we have forums like this.

But I would still shoot a racoon that has been hit on the side of the road and suffering rather than drive by and go on with my day. That is just me doing what I want because most people don't want to do their own dirty work..

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Of course you would, as would I. But that has nothing to do with feeder rodents being killed by snakes in a way thats occurred for thousands of years and is occuring now.

Mice being killed by hawks, owls, snakes, lizards, etc etc etc is as natural as it gets. To say death is better by our hands, Then by a snakes methods is a bit god like.

people can make that decision, but it has nothing to do with being right. At least for the rodent. ITs right only to ease the mind of some silly human, and only because that person does not have to do the killing. Its all about letting someone else do it and turn a blind eye. To me, a big part of these conversation is about having someone else do the dirty work, yet they still keep snakes in boxes and throw out the uneaten frozen thawed. The rodent is killed either way.

Also, eliminating the exercise a gets by killing rodents, is just another step to fat weak captive individuals. hahahahahahahahahaha I should have said that sooner.

The truth is, I could careless if folks feed live or not, its just weird this religious ferver that better by someone elses hands, then for the reptile to do what is natural. Its just another area control freaks can whine and take more rights away. In this case, its animal rights. Many individual snakes, perfer live over F/t, its their right as living carbon units to kill their prey, they are indeed predators. Individuals that perfer F/T, should be fed that.

I feed live until the mice are big enough to bite; then I kill the mouse (break neck quickly) so it wont bite my snake. This feeding live is easy as I have a large mousery, but for those folks who cant raise their own live mice, frozen thawed is okay. A snake in the wild would probably eat a dead mouse it found (if it was fresh). I have a lot less waste with live as if it does not get eaten I can return it to the nest. With larger mice that I have killed but the snakes didnt eat, I freeze those for the Raptor Rescue people.

As for the humane treatment of animals, my mice have big tubs with cardboard box hides and exercise wheels, and are kept on clean bedding with ample food and water. They have a good life while they are alive. I have been to several other mouseries at mainly reptile stores, and have cringed at the tiny little tubs with nothing to do but breed and raise young in very cramped quarters.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Again you are a voice of reason and good common sense. In most cases.

You are correct about the consenus thinking and losing our rights because of that. More and more such groups will change laws because of the ferver they have to go out and do so. That is how things get so screwed up nowadays. Back in the day nobody cared if you kept snakes or how many you caught in the wild.

But really these people that talk and follow are not really groups. it is always one or maybe 2 fervent inividuals with an agenda that get the sheep to follow. These couple individuals instigate a rather "silly" agenda (as if they are doing something for God or mankind) want to change laws. With the passion for a reason they beleive they are actually accomplishing some good. But really is doing the exact opposite and you point that out so well. What seems logical and "good" on the surface is so many times... and MOST of the time not so "good".

So is the state of mankind, when left with a depraved mind and thinking they can do good. HA HA HA HA ///true funny, but not really funny.
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Also, eliminating the exercise a gets by killing rodents, is just another step to fat weak captive individuals.

This is the answer to America's obesity epidemic; make people chase down and kill their own food!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

If we had to do that, there would be very few obese people. Thats for sure.

...and many more vegans....

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I have fed live since the early 1990's when I started breeding my own rodents. On baby snakes....they ALL get live pinkies. On older snakes they get freshly thumped mice.....mice that I thump within seconds of putting into cage.

Now I will feed frozen thawed if I run low on live, but that is rare.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

I read up to the third paragraph and just simply couldn't read any more. Dude frank seriously man why do u have to be so annoying? I googled you and WOW!! Haha- keep up the good work old man- you have some seriously cool opinions and clearly you have knowledge on your hands no doubt about that but whAt you also clearly have a great deal of is good ol "to much time on your hands"
Write a book. I would buy it-
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**Joe Schmidt-
3rdroomreptiles.com

What is your problem? I don't have time to google you, nor do I have a the want to. What are you afraid off.

I am getting the feeling something is going on here, as if I was wrong, dumb or offbase, I would be just one of thousands and no need to worry, but you do worry? Why?

I agree with this!

So killing an injured animal on the side of the road is a good thing because it shortens the animal's suffering, but feeding humanely-killed (read: quick deaths, suffering minimized) frozen mice is a bad thing? Road deaths, in the modern world, are as much a part of the "natural" wildlife experience as live mice falling prey to snakes. Your instincts to shorten the suffering of the hurt animals on the side of the road is commendable: having the same sensitivity for our animals' food items seems the same.

A different tack: Would it bother anyone to see nice big -- and live -- tiger salamanders being put on fishhooks as bait?

Anyway, i think the principle we're discussing is the same as our being able to choose euthanasia vs dying in any of the horrific ways millions of humans have died, with suffering dragged out for hours, days, weeks or months. I noticed how quickly this thread turned into a "big government taking away my freedoms" issue for a few: Surely euthanasia should be a right as much as ground-to-air missile ownership? How does that relate to food items?

A tangent: I heard a crash on my patio a week ago, like someone banging galvanized tubs together. I first thought someone was trying to break in. At almost the same moment the doorbell rang. The fella at the front door told me a deer had been hit out front, and ran down my driveway. He'd called the police and thought I should know. So now i knew what the noise was. I followed the cop down the driveway and we found the deer had skidded around a corner onto the patio, knocked my heavy metal six-person patio table about 8' into my big grille, knocking it another couple feet. The animal was hurt, and panicked. I was lucky it didn't come thru the patio doors. Luckier still, we weren't having a cookout that night, or people would have been badly hurt. Our flashlights picked up the deer walking in the back of my lot (75 feet away). It seemed ok; I'm hoping it survived.

There are a few countries where its illegal to feed live. Live rodents(all prey to snakes). So indeed the question of freedom is a concern.

I still have to ask, what makes you think the frozen rodents you buy are killed humanely?

"I still have to ask, what makes you think the frozen rodents you buy are killed humanely?"

No, you really didn't have to ask that, but it's no surprise to me that you did.

It's about the OP's snake that would otherwise gladly accept F/T, but instead struggled around with a live rodent as it was being chewed on and gradually swallowed alive, struggling all the way down the snakes belly until it finally suffocated to death. See, there wasn't ANY QUESTION as to that rodent's needless torture and suffering......now WAS THERE?

Call me silly, but I'm pretty sure even Ray Charles could "see" the major difference there if he put his mind to it. But then again Ray Charles wouldn't constantly be either here or on the Hognose forum looking for drama to entertain and amuse himself with either.

...............See the difference now?
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Well, sorry for stirring up the hornets nest with this one for some of you. I would like to say off the bat that I actually did not want to feed him live in the first place. I had my reservations about it. But from what I had heard from friends who own reptiles, and reptile stores, is that it is healthier to feed them live. That is what I had been told. And when I had told my friend how gingerly he thought there could have been an illness making him sluggish. So when he went to get his ball python a rat, he picked me up a pinkie cause he believes it is healthier. But I will no longer attempt to feed him live. On a side note, The frozen pinkies i get from petco are consistently relatively small, about the tip to first digit of your thumb. the live pinkie my friend got me was considerably larger and appeared to be more appropriately sized. Where can I get a medium/large pinkie? petcos next size up i believe it to big.

You aren't stirring up anything, that's FR's forte.

Yeah, I really don't have a problem with feeding live either, and neither do most folks here when it is necessary. If the snakes will accept pre-killed frozen, then there is no additional suffering for the rodent there... What you can also do is quickly "pre-whack" one if you do only have live.

You can get frozen rodents in bags from many companies online and they are far cheaper than live or frozen at a pet store by FAR!! Just type in "feeder rodents" on a google search. There are companies such as Big Cheese, American Rodent Supply, Mice on Ice, Mice Direct, Rodent Pro, Loxahatchee Rodent Supply, etc...

There is no real substantial difference in nutritional value between live and fresh-frozen. As long as they aren't freezer-burnt, they are good to go. Also when the mice get larger they can harbor parasites in the gut that will be killed in the frozen stock.

I have fed uncountable truckloads of live rodents to snakes over the course of several decades, but I don't see a need to if it isn't necessary. The irritating banter/drivel FR is trying to feed everyone is really the worst part..

Anyway, you can get single bags of 50-100, or thousands. The more you get the cheaper they are. If you know any friends that have snakes too, you can split the shipment and save even more.

If you do get live from the store, you can just instantly whack them to save them the later agony. I guess it used to be interesting to watch when I was a kid, but decades later and millions more rodents later, I see things a bit differently than I used to. Don't get me wrong though, I'll feed a problem snake that won't accept anything but a living, breathing rodent in a heartbeat, but this is pretty rare.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

They commonly swallow prey alive if its of no danger to them, such things as pinkies, small mice to a large snake may be just swallowed.

Your question about being healthier, as you can see, there are PEOPLE on both sides of that fence. But all in all, they are people and people have many many reasons for what they do. And keeping wild animals, must have a range of reasons.

My comment was actually about respecting the snake for what it is, a real predator. Also to allow/support as much as you can, that is NATURAL to that species. Which may or may not include feeding live prey.

Your task as a keeper should be, is the snake healthy, if its healthy, then its normal to consume live prey, WITHOUT HARM to the snake. Its what they do, and it can be said they take satisfaction is doing what is natural to them. Most have a very set routine on how they kill prey, Others have a wide range of behaviors, its all of that, that makes your snake a snake. How it consumes small harmless prey, how it kills and consumes larger prey, how it consumes reptiles, lizards, birds, eggs, etc. All these behaviors are IN your snake. They are your snake.

What you decide to learn from your snake is up to you. But I would look for your answers in books about snakes, then from the snakes themselves. Not so much from people who have all manner of reasons for putting a snake in a box. My suggestion is, be wary of control freaks/protectionists, they tend to make a captive, a useless piece of meat in a box. Hmmmm maybe thats a bit strong. but it is one end of the spectrum. The other end would be feed nothing but live, the reality is, do what is best for your snake, give it as much as you can thats natural to it. Not whats so easy for you.

Now a days, keeping snakes is all about what is easy for the keeper and nothing to do with what a snake "is". Cheers

That wasn't my question was it. My question was, what makes you think all F/t die a humane death?

Your point is addressed in another paragraph. One about whats natural, and predator/prey relationship.

Snakes are known predators, many species are also known to swallow prey alive, which is a method of killing their prey. With many reptiles, folks feed insects to predators, yet no concern over how they die is given or discussed.

I circled around this point, Is this not more about something in the keepers head? Some rationalization over the death of something cute? I don't know the answer.

What is true is, These snakes are predators, in nature 99% of their diet is killed by them. That is their nature. Rodents are their natural diet, so 99% will be killed by the snake. Its natural and what they do.

I would think that knowing snakes are predators should be taken into consideration before a person takes on the responsibility of keeping them.

My other point was related, the taking away of all thats natural to the snakes, and killing their prey is very natural to them. I still wonder, what gives us the right to decide such things when these things are contrary to what is natural for the animal.

In the first responses, someone mentioned respect for the snakes(not the rodents) I would think, respect would have to keep in mind, what a snake is. Respect for a wild species, would or should emcompass what that animal IS. Of course you sir are too "blind" to even see any of those concerns. I did not even judge what is right or wrong, I just offered some REAL concerns.

Of course you sir did your normal troll responce and attacked me, yet did not address any real concerns. Good on you

Do you also feed your snakes sticks, twigs and gravel?......I suggest you do since you are so ridiculously adamant on this "mimmicking nature" pedestal.

You sir, should just write a book called something like..... "The Simple Minded Snake as Viewed Through Mine"
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>> I still have to ask, what makes you think the frozen rodents you buy are killed humanely?

That's a fair question. I've been told by a couple frozen rodent vendors that their animals are gassed, sorry i can't be more specific but I recall the explanation, when I was given it, seeming far more humane than feeding live, whatever entertainment value that might have for some keepers.

It seems more humane than "whacking", a method I suspect everyone on this forum has used, and found it doesn't always immediately kill the animal. There's probably a reason executions in the US are usually conducted by lethal injection or gas (i might be using old history here) instead of taking the convicted criminal by the feet and swinging him around before crashing him into a stone wall. And if he remains partly conscious, rinse and repeat. Remember, the mice haven't committed any atrocity or affront to society.

Just my two cents...

And I noticed no one has responded to my question about using tiger salamanders as bait. A different scenario: You come across a rube in the woods, intent on killing a snake, but instead of cutting of its head he's cutting toward the head from the tail, one inch at a time. Does that strike you as grossly inappropriate? Might you intervene, and say, hey, fella, if you've gotta kill it, just do it as quickly as you can? I don't buy the analogy, but by one that's been offered here, it's "the nature" of humans to kill that which threatens their well-being (real or imagined). If that's true, do we care whether that instinct is acted upon in a way that prolongs an animal's suffering?

Y'know, on review: this doesn't warrant discussion: If you can minimize any animal's suffering, you should. That's really all that needs to be said.

This is an interesting thread. It's generated a different question in my mind: do zookeepers (I know, I know, they're not perfect either, so we can agree to disagree with their practices, but I suspect it's fair to say they're generally better-informed than the average reader on this forum) ...so, just for insight, do zookeepers* routinely feed their big predators live food? Is the general practice to routinely give the big cats, for example, live pigs, sheep, whatever, so they can practice their natural behavior of stalking, pursuing, capturing and killing, before eating? Or are they fed--for want of a better word--pre-killed food?

Whatever the answer--I'm really open to whatever it is--what are the implications for our discussion here?

*--maybe i should limit this question to practices at the zoos that have more natural exhibits, and not ones that merely have magnificent felines in cement and steel-bar cages. I'm anticipating FR's antagonism to that insensitivity to the animals' natural environment, and Frank, i agree with you completely. Though the question would still remain, "ok, if we fail in the physical environment the zoo provides, does that mean it shouldn't strive to do better in other aspects of the captives' lives--for ex., always feeding live food to animals that are natural predators, even if they're housed in those unfortunate cement "homes"?

Maybe another way the "natural" discussion could proceed is by comparing the difference between, say, a lion's natural range and the conditions in which it's kept in captivity, vs the way we house our snakes and the snakes' likely experiences in the wild. I know both are "unnatural". But think about a snake which might, in the wild, range over a square mile in its lifetime (far less for smaller, fossoral species) and which might often retreat to a smaller-than-cage-sized recess in a tree stump or rock crevice, for weeks or even months). And lastly--because i do think the "natural" discussion is worthwhile--we generally eliminate from our snakes' housing animals that would predate upon them. If we make the decision not to keep a fox with our snakes, is that subjecting the snake to any more unnatural an environment than feeding it pre-killed food rather than live?

It has been years since I've fed anything in my collection live. If your snake eats frozen/thawed with no problem, I say you've got a winner.

A pinky is too small of a food item for a 24 inch kingsnake. It is too small for the snake to find worth constricting. At the very least you should be giving it fuzzy mice, which if fed live, the snake would probably constrict.

If a 3 foot rat snake came across a nest of pinky rats, chances are it would simply eat them alive. If it came across a half-grown rat, it would constrict it.

Tim

Third Eye Herp