Reptile & Amphibian Forums

where they at?
havnt seen em in a while. looking for some for my collection , recently got a hypo chain from NC ide like to make a nice group out of
any photos floating around either?
atleast something to drool at

thanks guys
-Ryan

I'd lie to see the hypo...

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

* like *

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Freudian slip? Lol

Here's a baby.

I'd like to see that hypo too!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

there are no hypos easterns or amel easterns that are 100% pure in teh hobby.

yet!

But there av been reports of a couple pure eatern getula getula amelnistics from within the proper range extension(not intergrade zone). But none ever been reproduced in teh hobby.
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Rainer is right. I believe the hypo Easterns are from outcrossing them into hypo Florida Kings. I know there is Superior Serpents that does that cross for some reason.

>>there are no hypos easterns or amel easterns that are 100% pure in teh hobby.

Rainer, I agree I can't be sure the amel "easterns" i bred were pure. But I'm curious how you can be sure they definitely weren't. Based on the information i was able to get about the ones I worked with, it was impossible to take either position with certainty. Do you know something new about them?

This should be fun..
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Terry,
When these came out i was a heavy getula morph fanatic and i was reelly REALLY looking forward to getting a pair of these for $1000. each when they first arrived.

I was all ready to buy when I held on for the first time with cash in hand. You should have seen my face and continence drop. i knew right away they were not real pure eastern. The way they handled, moved and physically appeared made me put that whole project down. Remind you i was crazy for getting a pair. Everybody that knew me , knows i would have been all over that .I was disspointed but working with getula so long I know when i see a fake. Also i worked with hybrids back then and I bred a lot. You could say i have a green thumb for sniffing out fakes.

So i don't need further poof. but as we know later on it came out the locality info on these was very nefarious and it just supported my thoughts. That was a debate amonst ya'll, range maps extensions ect/ i think the verdict is out and I am sorry but you should not feel ashamed to be associated with these. So no need to defend.Your record in this business and honesty and customer service is and has always been A plus.

also i never mentioned to anyone my thoughts on the project including you Terry. i kept that to myself and turned out the whol thing crashed and burned rather fast for being pure eastern getula.
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Only one little problem. Now those probably WERE very bogus crosses you held at that particular time, I'm not doubting that one tiny bit at all. I have seen many obvious crosses as well over the years too. But on the other hand, there have also been many other accounts of different getula being found from DIFFERENT places of origin in the country too (such as N.Carolina). I have a huge laundry list that's probably 75 feet long of compiled data and stories on them, and I cannot tell you where the real ones are (if there even are any now) OR where the bogus ones are (unless they are very obvious of course).

How do you identify a fairly convincing looking "imposter" cross of several generations that was back-bred to many more "target" authentic Eastern getula anyway? I don't think I could ever tell the difference if my life depended on it, and I don't think you or anybody else can either no matter how experienced an eye they may have. I've seen many of these to know that I cannot tell conclusively one way or another......

In short, those will always be like the old TV commercial with Mr. Owl getting to the center of a "Tootsie Pop"..........the world will never know. ..........until a new line comes around again that CAN be traced directly back to it's very specific place of origin. Otherwise, they are nothing different than Bigfoot sightings in my opinion.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Gosh you are sounding more like Thomas.

Just WOW!

well we both have followed them because we would want one. I only heard of two possible accounts and one pic that looked like the real deal. And boy was it nice! Just like you would picture with the robustness of a chain king head , face and body. WOW! Georgeous! Like the iron man of kingsnakes!

Thing is, all these leads ened up with a dead end (some literally)or some zoo offical got a hold of it.
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Exactly,that's why the "learning from hybrids" idea is worthless.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

LOL!! yeah..."learn"?....learn what?, learn how to purposely produce crossed snakes so they can be deceitfully sold as an authentic subspecies?

Or maybe "learn" how half the people in the hobby couldn't even begin to guess what type of snake they just got, but want to breed it to just about any other type of snake they happen to run across or have in their collection at the time?

Or maybe "learn" how to make the hobby even MORE confused and uncertain than they already are about almost every type of snake being bought, bred and sold out there?

Yeah, there's PLENTY to be "learned" from them alright. From looking at all the bogus ads and posts over the years, I can definitely see exactly just how much has been "learned" from making hybrids and other crosses. Too bad everyone doesn't learn about them, I guess that's the entire problem....too many haven't learn!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

a hobby snake is a hobby snake is a hobby snake.

you know the real difference between a $25 hobby sinaloan and a $100 cosala sinaloan?

the breeders reputation.

personally, i'm just happy with anyone who chooses a lampro over a pet rock. and if, after they've had their hobby snake for a while, they feel a sense of indignation over the fact that their snake doesn't have a pedigree you may have just seen the birth of another 'locale' guy

Yeah, the amel Sinaloan was really the very least of it.

Maybe I should have used even better examples like the banded black & white Desert Cal. king x floridana labeled as an axanthic Florida king I saw on a guys table, or the orange thayeri x Sunkissed corn that was "thought" to be a real sunkissed corn by the owner. Or any one of countless others to "learn" from.

Claiming people can learn from hybrids by producing them so that others can learn to detect crosses better is like telling someone to shoot thereselves in the foot so they can get more familar with detecting and identifying pain..LOL!

Hey Ross Radilla!,...where is that hybrid that looked IDENTICAL to a coastal Newport Long Beach Cal. king in every single feature, but was actually a hybrid with 25% Pueblan milk in its lineage????

Who could learn from that?...well, besides that they can often be bought as something and it isn't even CLOSE to being what it looks like, or is supposed to be. Then when it gets bought as a Newport Cal. king and bred to another down the road (because that is EXACTLY what it looks to be) the person pops out cool looking Pueblan crosses here and there and thinks they are a neat new Cal. king morph..LOL!

Also, Maybe Mitch Mulks, Joe Pierce, and many other cornsnake aficionados could pop in here to tell everyone how much they have "learned" about what the Tessera corns might actually be after paying huge bucks and breeding countless more for years to sell. There is a real possibility that those could be Cal. king x corn hybrids, although the dominant mode of inheritence in the clutches doesn't make good sense, but who knows. They seem to be EXTREMELY similar to many other known Cal. king x corn striped and tesselate-sided hybrids.

I know what you are saying Brian, but it would be much nicer if people could learn about stuff BEFORE they get screwed and only produce folds more misidentified crosses in the process.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Sorry Ross!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I can't believe you. lol
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interesting read on the tessera over at cs.com for sure.

and i remember that 25% pueblan "newport" - i remember it came from a well known hybridizer too (although i can't remember which one for the life of me). and while i think he has every right to work with whatever he chooses, i also think there's a larger moral obligation to not sell animals like that.

there's already enough "i have a male california king and a female mexican black king, what do you think their offspring will look like?" people out there. so to allow a snake that will clearly be misrepresented later on, when the novelty of owning a snake/hybrid wears off for those who weren't prepared to keep an animal that lives upward of two decades, is just unconscionable.

just tossing a couple of cents in there
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i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

Yes, there were some interesting reads over there.

And I couldn't agree more about the other things you just mentioned either.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Here it is. Looks so much like a pure reverse wide striped Cal king.

hypo sor x cal x imp hf2b by RossAZ480, on Flickr
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LOL!!,....geeez, that's not even the same one I remember seeing that you showed me a long time ago. The one I remembered was a really typical looking Newporter. But heck, it even proves the point just that much more about what I was saying anyway........in that they are ALL OVER the place mucking up real stuff wherever they go.

Thanks for chiming in with the pic Ross....
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

i'm pretty sure this is the one you remember doug:

i did a little research and it seems that other one was from the same clutch. actually, there were four initially put up for sale and they all sorta look like pure cals. they're 50% cal - 25% splendida - 25% campbelli
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i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

Yeah, that could possibly be the same snake Brian, but it was in a different photo and in a different position when I saw it before.

Anyway though, yeah, nobody on earth would ever suspect it of being an L.t.campbelli hybrid in a million years...

Thanks for digging up the pic Brian....

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Wow, good job finding that, Brian!
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Yeah, I can't find that picture, but this was one of its siblings that still looks 100% Cal king. Pretty crazy how that works.
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I know man. Even if you, Hubbs, B. Hinds, or any other well-seasoned Cal. king field herper saw that thing in the wild they wouldn't even think twice about it being anything other than a 100% genuine L.g.californiae find. So just imagine what the casual/typical hobbyist would think it was in a deli cup or pet store? It's just another prime example of the many very deceiving hybrid "by-products" that flood the hobby.

Oh, that reminds me!...........I wonder when those white-sided "L.g.nigrita", "splendida" and melanistic "floridana" will be appearing on the market? At least we'll all know exactly where those trace back to....

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>I know man. Even if you, Hubbs, B. Hinds, or any other well-seasoned Cal. king field herper saw that thing in the wild they wouldn't even think twice about it being anything other than a 100% genuine L.g.californiae find. So just imagine what the casual/typical hobbyist would think it was in a deli cup or pet store? It's just another prime example of the many very deceiving hybrid "by-products" that flood the hobby.
>>
>> Oh, that reminds me!...........I wonder when those white-sided "L.g.nigrita", "splendida" and melanistic "floridana" will be appearing on the market? At least we'll all know exactly where those trace back to....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>~Doug
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>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com
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Yeah, the exact bird nest they hatched from.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

A few points on this subject and you.

One, your endless whining about something that was here long before you entered the hobby. Its odd.

Crosses/hybrids, are not just man made, they are also naturally occuring. Would your whining include those.

Lastly, you mention all this, so and so, did this or that, on this table or that table, etc. Yet, all that is about people, not crosses. That type of mislabelling, or cheating(as you call it), occurs in every area where man gets envolved. Its not about hybrids, they will also do that(cheat) with LOCALS. If there is a profit to be made. Its a normal people thing, not restricted to herper/hobbyist.

Which leads to this point, either do something about it or stop the endless whining. There are many things that can be done. As simple as establish a registry of origin. Then that would put a great value on both naturally occurring and captive created stock. Your not to lazy to whine(on and on and on and on), are you too lazy to do something about it?

The real point is, there is without guestion interest in both local and crossed/hybrid captives. So do something of benefit to both.

YOu also whine about me bing a pioneer with many of these captive lines, both pure and crosses. Whats funny is, to be a pioneer, you are required to get off your arse and do something. Sir, heres your oppertunity. Stop the whining and go actually do something. You do have a valid area of concern. but its not about whining, its simply establishing a method to validate, what is what. Cheers

A few points on this subject and you.

One, your endless whining about something that was here long before you entered the hobby. Its odd.

Crosses/hybrids, are not just man made, they are also naturally occuring. Would your whining include those.

Lastly, you mention all this, so and so, did this or that, on this table or that table, etc. Yet, all that is about people, not crosses. That type of mislabelling, or cheating(as you call it), occurs in every area where man gets envolved. Its not about hybrids, they will also do that(cheat) with LOCALS. If there is a profit to be made. Its a normal people thing, not restricted to herper/hobbyist.

Which leads to this point, either do something about it or stop the endless whining. There are many things that can be done. As simple as establish a registry of origin. Then that would put a great value on both naturally occurring and captive created stock. Your not to lazy to whine(on and on and on and on), are you too lazy to do something about it?

The real point is, there is without guestion interest in both local and crossed/hybrid captives. So do something of benefit to both.

YOu also whine about me bing a pioneer with many of these captive lines, both pure and crosses. Whats funny is, to be a pioneer, you are required to get off your arse and do something. Sir, heres your oppertunity. Stop the whining and go actually do something. You do have a valid area of concern. but its not about whining, its simply establishing a method to validate, what is what. Cheers

You sir, have quite a delusional knack for fabricating statements up.....WOW! I can't even respond since the entire thing makes absolutely NO sense at all!..LOL!

Gosh, it's not my fault you couldn't explain yourself to me or anyone else over on the "hoggie" forum after being asked some direct questions. I mean, we both know that this is what your entire objective is all about anyway,...right?

BTW, Mr."Pioneer" ,.... could you at least follow through with your promise of NOT talking to me like you said several posts ago?....thanks!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"Lastly, you mention all this, so and so, did this or that, on this table or that table, etc. Yet, all that is about people, not crosses. That type of mislabelling, or cheating(as you call it), occurs in every area where man gets envolved"

uhhh, yeah....the entire point Franko!..LMAO!!

It's not just "this so and so did this or that"....it's that COUNTLESS THOUSANDS of so and so's in this hobby do this and that.

Let me know when you get around to taking off the rose-colored glasses you are wearing....(obviously not too likely).

What delusional fabrication could you possibly dream up that I don't do anything about it???....again, you have no clue about what you are saying........none!!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>> Crosses/hybrids, are not just man made, they are also naturally occuring. Would your whining include those.

How many corn/king naturally-occurring crosses do you know of that made it from the wild to a show table? If the incidence is, say, less than one percent of the hybrids that are offered for sale at shows, then I'd say this argument is a straw dog.

>> Lastly, you mention all this, so and so, did this or that, on this table or that table, etc. Yet, all that is about people, not crosses.

Guns don't kill, people kill, right?

>> ...either do something about it or stop the endless whining. There are many things that can be done. As simple as establish a registry of origin.

So we have no right to complain about people counterfeiting money, if we're not personally designing systems to tell the real from the fakes? I'd argue the counterfeiting is still a less-than-desirable pastime--to society, to financial markets and the economy, to currency hobbyists, whoever. Same as art fakes, which, as is the case with hybridizing, some people have a real interest in creating. But the activity makes it harder to identify the authentic and by doing so devalues the genuine. IMHO.

There is no way he can argue with that, right?
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I try to find the middle ground. (I know, you're kidding, but…)

Sometimes theres a point of view that will make someone see a situation from a different perspective. It happens to me sometimes. Challenging our opinions is the best way to strengthen them--or change them to better ones. I try to facilitate that without being confrontational, but I don't always achieve that to the desired level.

I actually thought it made a lot of sense, good analogy. It's weird because I don't hate hybrids, just the selling of them. I have a couple different hybrid turtles, all by accident and think they are really cool. However, they will live out their days with me and I would never sell them. I think if it takes skill to do it, those people would want to keep what they make. Money is what drives them and that's how things get messed up. Good post, as always!
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

There is no way he can argue with that, right?

Well i already shot down Terrys gun arguement with my post below.

It is funny with you guys because when politics are brought up by one of you as in the "gun kill people" arguement to validate snake breeding as some sort of parrallel. As ridiculous as it seems I go and i give a answer to that. Then, I for some unkown reason et accused of bringing olitics into the discussion. can you guys see your own hyppocracy? This is exacly what FR tries to point out to you all . Your own human nature and being led by passion rather than rational thought. And you guys hate him for it! HA HA HA HA! I don't blame you. We all hate to lose to. But good character submits to losing a good debate once in a while.

You got your minds made up and that is that. No logic will ever prevail with you.
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I missed the gun talk,that would be a fun one to have with you. What's all the loosing talk?
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Very well put. And adding to your second paragraph I've collected and kept quite a few eastern kings and some are more robust than others, further making positive identification more difficult.

Exactly!.......I've seen hets that looked like almost any other Eastern getula too, but it means nothing as to their "TRUE" origin. All it means is that they look very phenotypically correct for the subspecies. It doesn't prove a thing about what really went on from point A to point B over the course of time.

Glad that you could easily understand all that...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Hi,

I had both the common amels and the only known lavender (I don't know if that is what is being called a hypo now?), but I consciously never produced either for sale, I hatched a few, but solely for my own curiosity. After keeping both for a decade and after comparing them on a daily basis to 100s of my known easterns from NJ to GA, coupled with their history which was sketchy at best, I made the decision to unload them without ever producing them for sale.

Will

After keeping both for a decade and after comparing them on a daily basis to 100s of my known easterns from NJ to GA

So what you are saying is it took you tens years to come to the same conclusion that took me 1.5 seconds.

LOL! I'm sorry i just couldn't help mysel. Just kidding around.

Seriously though. There is value for some herpetoculturists to start working with hybrids or at least intergrade sub species crosses and producing some of your own. There is so much to learn from them and ..it is easier to spot charactristics on something that maybe a cross of some type. Since hybrids are here this is the smartest way to combat them. And that is learn from them and that you can also enjoy them. They are snakes after all. Work with what makes you happy.
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LOL, what can I say, man? Never said I was all that bright!

Seriously, I just spent two hours hammering out a response and it got deleted. Anyway, I was skeptical from the get-go, as I only paid $100.00 for both the lavender and amel together, as they were supposedly sibs. But as time went on, I grew attached to the snakes and I wanted to see how they'd turn out. The amel had a very high chain count, much higher than typical southern animals. I have hatched NJs with a very high chain count, but these guys were suposedly from the Carolinas, so that gave me pause. As the lav matured, he developed a head that I can only describe now as what I thought a fla x cal x eastern might look like. I can't quantify that now, as its been a while, but the snake's head did not look like my Montgomery Co. easterns that were about the same size and age at the time. I raised them and bred them both to GA females. The hets strongly resembled their GA mothers. I sold the amel and hets off to Bob Bull for something like $400 and the lavender several years later to Schofield for $500. I gave them both the history of the animals as I knew it, and I can't really say how they represent them, as I have no interest in either project.

Now, I might be a hypocrite for putting animals whose authenticity I questioned in the hands of other breeders, but I gave both guys the full story as I knew it and figured that they would use that info to represent the animals to their customers. Also, you and Frank have swayed me to the point that I can accept that hybrids might have value in some context, I just don't like when they are represented as something they are not. Good conversation buddy. I hope you are well.

Will

>>...There is value for some herpetoculturists to start working with hybrids or at least intergrade sub species crosses and producing some of your own. There is so much to learn from them and ..it is easier to spot charactristics on something that maybe a cross of some type. Since hybrids are here this is the smartest way to combat them. And that is learn from them and that you can also enjoy them. They are snakes after all. Work with what makes you happy.

In the spirit of my response to Frank about five posts higher in this thread, let me paraphrase what you've said here:

"There is value for some art students to start working with fakes and producing some of their own. There is so much to learn from them...since art fakes are here this is the smartest way to combat that. And that is to learn from them and that you can also enjoy with them. They are (all art) after all. Work with what makes you happy."

An art student can "copy" or attempt to replicate a genuine work of art, as an exercise, and perhaps learn more about materials and lighting and brushwork and the rest--and then DESTROY the piece when the exercise is over. On the other hand, herpetoculturists can create hybrids but are very unlikely to then destroy them. There's a world of difference. To take up Frank's challenge: "do something about it". Maybe those making hybrids should work together to forge and promote a policy mandating end-of-experiment extermination. Or maybe a policy arguing hybrids should be sold only when microchipped. That would eliminate entirely any future ignorance of an animal's origins, as a result of intentional misrepresentation or accident. Just food for thought...

Com'n Terry, really,, REALLY? You been sucked into Obama/ Dmong hype like the non thinking masses?

Art:

1.The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual

2.Works produced by such skill and imagination.

That is right. Arts is a human expression of human skill.

if you want to pick up a rock and put it behind glass in a mueseum and call that art.LOL! Well that is not very creative Terry but to each his own.

What art is are humans creating something with IMAGINATION.

h

Terry you missied the point in my original and so did Doug about . Which surprises me about you cause it seems you used to be able to think more like a hippie than a yuppie.

Th point i made was buy breeding hybrids we can learn more what is real and is not. hence the one breeder who took a 1 1/2 years to detrermine what he had was anhybrid that took me 1.5 seconds to know.

Hybrids are here to stay . just as FR said it is people who will steal, deceive. kill, rape and do verything under tha sun as lomng as we inhabit the earth. the best thing we can do is either prtect ourselfs by being RATIONAL about it or take the retarded "guns are evil approach" instead of learing why these crazy people are not rep[otred before they go on a rampage. Leave the 10 million doctors and other good citizens who own guns alone and start doing something about the problem isntead of whining about it and trying to come up with a lame sulution like our president and face reality about human nature.

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I'm not going to get into politics with you, I already know everything you would repeat anyway. What does your post say about any side of this discussion? How are you supposed to learn about a individual species by not looking at those individuals? What is non thinking about that?
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>Terry you missied the point in my original and so did Doug about . Which surprises me about you cause it seems you used to be able to think more like a hippie than a yuppie.

Thanks. I'd definitely be happier with a foot -- or two -- in the hippie world than in the yuppie world.

That said, I think you misunderstand me. I think the hybrids you illustrated are interesting, some incredibly beautiful. I just don't think that because something's pretty, that alone justifies creating it. Homer Simpson's affinity for "shiny things" is well known, but it's not seen as a strong character trait. If one of those dramatic hybrids you showed were instead a newly discovered species, I'd be all over it. But they're not. Early in my herpetoculturist years, I bought a jungle corn and contemplated making more. But the shine wore off because they weren't "real", no more than the fish in pet stores that are painted to heighten their coloration.

If someone buys a forged painting, whether they know it's fake or not, it can't reproduce. It's not gonna spread further forgeries into the art world like some virus.

Similarly, someone can reconstruct a Model A from parts bin pieces from a dozen different cars, and it'll look like a Model A, but it's not the real thing: when you view it you're not seeing a Model A that rolled off a production line and then along America's highways 85 years ago. And someone can take a 57 chevy and chop it and add another model year's taillights and paint the chrome matte black, but it's no longer "a 57 chevy".

Should people be allowed to do those things? Of course. Then what's the difference between those and hybrids? Those modified cars won't infect the remaining genuine cars so that ten years later even fewer of the "real thing" will exist. They're not real, no more than kit cars.

Beauty alone shouldn't guide us. We must think about consequences.

{b]If one of those dramatic hybrids you showed were instead a newly discovered species, I'd be all over it.{/b]

I agee with you. So WOULD I! i like bonafide locality specific and espcuially some new as well. i think the her world has sufferred from this since teh advent of the BP morphs. I too wish it was like in the good ol days.

But why can't we like both? or the diviosions which seprate us like generic snakes, sub species crosses, unkown locality snakes, true hybrids, ect ect. All this worry about something effecting purity is really about the pocketbook for an individual. They seem to think if some kid who has never bred 2 snakes together roduces some new recessive trait they should be richly rewarded . But because of fake hybrds out there he will not. So case in pont is does this young teenager really deserve to be rewarded for his breeding efforst? Really what efforst has this person done? or really most anybody who pops out a new morph and then all of a sudden they have a name in herppetoculture. hmm , they never did a thing in breeding efforst or selective breeding or even trying to keep bonafied locality specimens by going out and finding them themselves. So you see it is all a big joke and so are this hipsters with big mouths on here. Dmaong as a kid is still trying to find his first cornsnake and is jealous you found and eastern king in his backyear mentality. He and others are just immature and now they own a computer.LOL!

But truth is people don't care about new stuff . That is why herptecuture moved away from people trying to work with newer or harder to acquire spp and instead is about codom mrphs and making $$$.

beleive me we are on the same page as that!

We can do what we love and we should respect and stop the infighting amonst ourselves and just leave others the hell alone.

i also hate to bring up using one of you parlallel arguements because someone who has a problem with reading will turn it against me. basically the cars, art, polictics ect does not jive well when it comes to herpetocultre. it is just not teh same thing as baseball cards either and the parrallels are a weak arguement. So i prefer to listen to some human reason of an old FR which is better than the foul lipped disrespectful youth on this forum. (not you Terry)
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"But truth is people don't care about new stuff . That is why herptecuture moved away from people trying to work with newer or harder to acquire spp and instead is about codom mrphs and making $$$. "

I agree with that! There is however a lot more people working with species that haven't been done yet. Hopefully when these animals become available, they'll also stay as unique as they already are.

The rest well, I never expect you to understand a different point of view.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

....is this the one that started your white-sided "Florida" king project off and running years ago?

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

did you destroy your amel chainkings terry? OR did you SELL them?

simple question deserves a simple answer.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tell that to FR....
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

yeah ok gerard, why dont you ask terry what he did with his amelchains, i mean youve said you dont mind hydrids/crosses just people who SELL them and terrys talked about consequences of hybrids and breeders responsibilities and such so i think its a very valid question deserving of a truthful valid answer.

terry dunham had amel chains what did he do w/them???

put up or shut up.

,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Good question, just like the thousands that FR could have but hasn't. I still would like to hear the answer but your little attempt at acting like someone other than who your really are speaks V O L U M E S........

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,hide your guns.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

did you hit your head or forget your meds?
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>did you destroy your amel chainkings terry? OR did you SELL them?
>>
>>simple question deserves a simple answer.

Sorry for the delay, Thomas, i didn't see your post until today.

Simple answer: I sold them.

With full disclosure, of course (I might have published more details online about the animals' uncertain lineage than anyone else). But I sold them.

>>>>did you destroy your amel chainkings terry? OR did you SELL them?

>>Simple answer: I sold them.

I think it's fair to point out (not trying to defend my action but rather to clarify the issues involved in the "hybridizing" discussion) that at worst, the "amel chain kings" might well have been animals that were crosses of nigra and getula, two animals that have a natural intergrade range that stretches (without looking back at maps) maybe 100 miles. One of the many theories about where the original animal came from even including the possibility it came from an intergrade range.

Which is maybe a good point to respond to Aaron Bayer's thoughtful suggestion near the bottom of this thread. Aaron, I think many of us don't just object to the sale of hybrids without proper disclosure: we--I--object to the creation of them, because we (I?) think it unlikely such proper ID will persist with the animals and their subsequent--remember, it's ALL subsequent generations, forever. The "amel chain kings" may be the perfect example: Once the original ID was lost--and if you read the background on them, it appears to have been--now we, all of us, no matter how well meaning, can never sort it out. It's just a good thing the "flaw" in them might have been that they're the result of subspecific cross that occurs in the wild, and that they weren't hybrids.

Why not post and promote some of the cool hybrid "floridana" morphs sold as genuine Florida kings so everyone can learn how to "identify" the imposter counterfeits from real ones while you're at it?.

Or does that not fit into your hypocrytical argument?
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Good post Terry!

Pertaining to your post:

" An art student can "copy" or attempt to replicate a genuine work of art, as an exercise, and perhaps learn more about materials and lighting and brushwork and the rest--and then DESTROY the piece when the exercise is over. "

Unfortunately, the laziness associated with reducing pure species in our hobby, in regards to the unfortunate selfishness perpetuated with breeding hybrids, may be here to stay, as long as mankind, has no regard to others in our hobby, much less, the animal kingdom.

It would be nice to erase the damage done with the lazy and selfish actions of hybrids, but then again, you are dealing with those who only care about a " feel good " mentality, and who have no regard for others.

Oh well, such is life, and the human condition of this earth.
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Genesis 1:1

No clue if this would work, just a random idea that popped into my head while reading all this.

It seems that a lot of people are okay with the actual hybrids, but get their feathers ruffled when such animals are being misrepresented, and rightfully so.

so what about a black ball or boycott list. If you catch an individul selling something that you are 100% sure is not what they say it is, take a pic of said specimen and add the seller's name to the list along with the pic and what they were trying to pass it off as.

I know there are a lot of ads on the classifieds even on this site that are pure bs (amel alterna) and maybe a list that everyone can see would help. That would help even new guys from being suckered into doing businsess with the frauds and liars.

There is a similar list on a lot of bodybuilding forums for people that review supplements. works like a charm and everyone knows to avoid cetain individuals.
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1.1 Argentine Boas
1.1 Dumerils Boas
1.1 Black Milk Snakes
2.3 California King Snakes
1.1 Nelsons Milk Snakes
2.2 Corn Snakes

A constructive proposal, Aaron. My point of view, though, is that hybrids are harmful and should be discouraged, not that they're ok so long as they're properly identified.

I'd support your proposal, so long as it didn't seem like an endorsement of hybrids, because:
a) it would reduce the number of mis-identified hybrids accidentally getting into the herpetocultural mainstream where they could pollute subsequent generations;
b) it should put downward pressure on hybrid prices, which would discourage further breeding;
and
c) by drawing attention to the "hybrid" issue, it would help more people understand the distinction (if you've gotta explain what something is, you probably need to explain why you need to explain what it is, too!)

My own wish is to change behavior through education. Over time, public opinion can change, does change: Bear-baiting's fallen out of favor, people no longer routinely defecate in the streets (yep: read Pepys); blacks and woman can vote, we eat healthier; etc. My maternal grandmother left school after the fourth grade to go to work. She'd walk the Ohio River bridge from Kentucky to Cincinnati to work in a sock factory. On breaks, while the older workers talked and smoked, she and the others her age played hide-and-seek among the boxes. They were just children, some like her only 9 or 10. We don't approve of that any more. And while that's now built into the legal code, it, like so many other laws, is just the result of changed public thinking.

There are a couple outspoken and articulate defenders of hybridizing on here. But I think the general reaction is that yes, those critters are creating problems for herpetoculture, and yes, there is something intrinsically superior in an animal that can be found in the wild.

As SNL Weekend Update's Colin Quinn used to say, That is my story, and i'm stickin' to it.