Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We all know it. It's sad that some here are still trying to say that they are the real thing but those hybrid breeders will always say such.

Yes.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

At this time, the snakes are REAL and exsist. You folks are whiners with an opinion. And there is nothing wrong with that, you are entitled to have an opinion. Not sure about this endless whining. How about make a list of who hates crosses and make it a sticky above.

What is wrong is, all you do is whine and carry on like kids. Your not kids, your adults. Do something about it.

Gather a group of people, and research the best you can and determine what is this and what is that. And make it official. Then keep a registry. It will take work. But you will love it and you would get to stop whining. Isn't that what you want?

In the meantime, your opinions are only and legally just that, opinions. You say, we all know, I have to wonder, who WE is. To me, that is only a statement to sway others thinking.

The truth is, your WE, is not different then the others who think they are goini. Its only opinion. I also have to wonder does Blaze cover all bright orange neonate kings. Are there real BLAZE goini? my bet is there are. But that too is an opinion.

My other opinion is, I think of morphs the same as crosses, hybrids, etc. Non natural and in most cases, manmade that would not establish in nature(normal habitats)

I mean really, a lav albino thats het for whiteside, and possible het for scaleless and peachcup belly. What does that have to do with any naturally snake? A multiple morph occuring in nature would be far less common than a hybrid. See, i can whine too.

Its interesting, many of you that hate hybrids/crosses, love morphs. Odd I tell you. Naw its not odd, your normal humans, not all that rational and very opinionated. Cheers(I am included)

Frank, to avoid sounding whinny I simply said yes. Also, I am helping do something about it. I have some very sweet wc meansi that My friend and I are working with. The goal, to get some real examples of this species into the hobby and try and weed out all the crap.

What do you call your responses to all the "whining" posts? Think.........speak.

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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

There are two ways to have the tallest building in the world. The first is to be on the leading edge of engineering and constantly strive to build the biggest tallest buildings. The second is to go around and blow up every building taller that yours.

What a few vocal people who still care, Frank included, are saying is that we like snakes. We love wild types and the habitat from which they came, we like morphs and we're even ok with hybrids. What we aren't ok with is the denigrating of others to make oneself look or feel better. To tie this together we're tired of people flaming the collection of others just to make their collection look better. We question why can the merrits of a collection, or lack there of, not stand on their own? Returning to this point of disharmony is not whining but continually griping that the world of herpetoculture doesn't measure up to an exacting purist specifications is.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Did I mention someone's collection? I like hybrids, they're animals and I love animals. If you called me and said, Gerard, I made this hybrid A x B, I would say awesome. I don't have any problem with people that make them, just the ones that think they're not hybrids and sell them. The ones that say a snake is a snake is a snake.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

"The goal, to get some real examples of this species into the hobby and try and weed out all the crap."

Do you really have to mention specific collections?
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I could but I didn't. I will not pretend like I don't think that most of the stuff out there is crap, not because of who has it but because of what's in it. I don't breed or sell snakes for money, only fun. Therefore, my opinions are based only on what I like, not trying to degrade your animals.

"What we aren't ok with is the denigrating of others to make oneself look or feel better. To tie this together we're tired of people flaming the collection of others just to make their collection look better. We question why can the merrits of a collection, or lack there of, not stand on their own?"

I have no problem with hybrids and the people that have them. I think a lot of the, are very interesting and beautiful. It's the misrepresentation and sale of the animals to people that don't know yet and don't understand what those animals can do to the people that like them the way they come. I don't care what you think about my collection, it's about the animals, to quote someone, can't remember who?

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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Too many here suffer from a conciseness bias whereby they think others share the same concern. Factually most people who buy a generic snake or hybrid don't care what it is until after they're told their purchase is crap. Then the guy who sold it to them is crap regardless of whether there was any misrepresentation involved. The whole thing lets uninformed buyers off the hook and sets a few up as protectors against sellers of crap.

IMHO hybrid animals and those of suspect lineage are too easily spotted and avoided to warrant all the concern.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I respect your opinion.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

This is funny, you often tag team with a couple of folks here, WHO do judge other animals as less then, often calling them mutts.

When I made my comment, it was towards Dmoug, and you and nobody tagged along(as usual) When you tag along, you get lumped in with, just like crosses which are completely different then hybrids, but are lumped into the mutt catagory.

You also defined your thoughts by saying your doing your part by keeping a pair of goini(mearnsi) which can be agrued are a melting pot population of eastern kings. As in, crosses.

But none of that is the point, the point is exactly what your trying to say, THOSE WHO MISREPRESENT animals at shows. That is what I addressed. You, as in, you as a group, should get off your behinds and do something. Instead of complaining(whinnig) at every oppertunity.

Also another point I addressed is, it will not matter as If you indeed fixed that problem with locale registered bloodlines, people being people, will just cheat at that. They do now and always have. They will simply lie about locals.

The third point I addressed is, its about people and not animals. As its the people who are doing the bad deeds, not the animals. As hybrids, crosses and morphs are indeed natural occurring and a captive product. Cheers

I don't have a problem with the "rare" hybrids that occur naturally with species that are from the same place. "I" don't like when diggles mix ratsnakes and kingsnakes that would have never meet in nature and "YOU" don't like people whining about it. We each have our own dislikes, why don't you do something about yours...
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Fix my what? I don't have a problem with captive snakes, to me, once they leave nature, they are dead to nature. Its the living animals in nature that I care about.

Once they are in captivity, they, as in, all captive snakes are no longer natural. So they are all equal in my eyes. All snakes that do not occur in nature.

You see, whats important to nature is phenotype. Phenotype is genotype filtered thru natural selection. Natural selection is a huge factor in exsisting and changing phenotypes. Phenotype is the engine that drives evolution of these species.

In captivity, we place "captive" pressures and selection on them, which does not represent "natural selection" in the least.

In captivity, we place prey selection on them, we select mostly for rodent feeders(as an example). We have a completely different color and pattern selection then nature. Pretty or odd, works in captivity. Odd colors sell. And I am not refering to money. They sell to you and you do not do it for money.

In nature, individuals are selected for that "fit" the current enviornment and temp regime(another example). In captivity they are selected for sweater boxes and medium temps(just as an example).

So no, I do not have a problem with mislabelling at shows. As they are all captive snakes. And let me say, there are many wonderful lines and morphs and colors with captive created snakes, pure or otherwise. And none represent nature or a local. As they are removed from the changing pressures of selection. Best wishes

Stop your ridiculous "WHINING" for chrissakes. You go 'round in endless circles like a broken cogwheel more than anyone here. If nature does the crossing, then that is absolutely FINE!!. When people do it,..they ARE MUTTS that do nothing but get bought-up, bred and re-sold as whatever the hell they happen to "look" like at the time when they hatch.....and again are bred with "whatever" to make folds more misrepresented snakes to flood the hobby to complete the endless cycle. Are you really as clueless as you portray yourself, or is it just that you like to talk in endless circles on forums as a favorite past time to people that get tired of your nonsense?...(oops! no need to answer that one).

Frunk, go blow your endless stream of drivel over on the hoggie forum. At least that way there will only be 50% of your BS that ends up here. Everyone there cringes at your fiction banter as well....don't they?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Others here know how to discuss topics in a mature manner but FR and his buddies are ones I just tend to completely skip over any post made. They're usually nonsense, immature, and at other times just plain nuts. No need to waste time on folks like that.

It's interesting that the ones who push the nonsense on here are the ones full of nonsense!

as normal, your only ability is to attack and whine. To bad you would not do that in person.

As I mentioned, your whining is about the people at the tables(not me) yet you go on and on.

I offerred something to think about, you know, that you could actually do something about it, yet all your capable of is attacking.

I know you and we know you. All you know how to do is attack to make yourself more then you "think" you are. Best wishes

....oh yes, best wishes to you as well
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

nice post tony. i was going to post something similar in the amel eastern thread below last night, but went to sleep instead

i'm just glad we all like king snakes.
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i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

No one is boasting about their own collection here nor trying to make their own look better than someone else. Nice try at attempting to divert the meaning of my post but it will not work.

Okay Keith. Whatever you say.
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Very nice Rainer but that's not me.

Keith

and i am not really Rainer either.
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well i'm me! and ya'lls is freekin me out!
whos who?!?!?!?!?

screen names suck.

,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

remember Micah posting as some ki?

Well i am really rainer posting as Keith hillson and nobody because this forum needed some revival.

Next week i will come back as Dwong.
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In my experience there are two types of purists, those with genuine interest and knowledge and those who just want to affiliate. Generally the ego of the latter is inseperable from the collection.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Seems to me you might want to gather some more experience then. Yours is either very limited or close minded. Clearly on the opinionated side though. Probably best not to comment on such things when you really have no idea what you're commenting on.

Really? What did you hope to accomplish here? Have you've presented new information, have you even demonstrated a knowledge of the mode of inheritance of this trait, or have you just testified as to your authenticity as a stand up purist?
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Hes a side taker, that is, if somebody has a stance, he attaches to it and mostly says nothing. As you recently observed.

My thoughts are there is nothing wrong with pointing out the subjective differences between pure, locality, generic, hybrid and cross. Alot of people don't even know so it's edjucational at least and can be helpful in opening up new views that give people a wider selection of choices. I agree it should not be denigrating but both sides are guilty of that from time to time.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Very nice meansi Gerard. I think it's a safe bet there is no man-made L.g.holbrooki augmentation there.LOL!...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I call them whining posts because everytime anyrhing is said about some manner of cross or possible cross, you and a few others go on and on. Also, if another goes on and on and you, say, yea, what he said, or simply yes, then you are owning that persons, WHINING.

ALso you keeping something pure is not doing a thing. And that is the point of my reply.

To do something about it is to form a group that works to determine and register, locale animals, from crossed animals, a group that is RELIABLE. that way, sellers can have their animals registered and that would INCREASE the value of locale types.

Again, whining is the constant complaining, without doing anything to fix the problem. Cheers and best wishes

Yes, a group, with specific localities, on it.

I was referring to your return whining.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

That's a interesting idea, especially when you use examples that are hybrids. A albino animal is no different from a normal except for the color. If you breed a wc albino to a captive animal, the babies all come out looking like the wild type.
Mom and daughter, the father was found in my backyard. You think of her as a hybrid?

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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Yeah, I don't ever recall seeing the definition of "hybrid" as being an animal that lacks melanin either. AWW, but what do I know,.....I'm just a typical "non-thinker" and the hybrid producers/advocates are the real "Einsteins" of the hobby in their opinion..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Its not about Einsteins or thinkers, its about dip[bleep]s.

It does not take an Einstein to breed snakes in captivity. Or to be good at it.

Its just people being people and liking what they like. And you as a normal "^*^$%^&" are allowed to like what you like.

Your problem is a lack of understanding of both nature and people(yourself)

And I say that for very good reason. The first of which is, this problem, has been here longer then you have, it is a pre-exsisting condition. Yet you act like its just starting.

You are always bad mouthing people and animals, as if you have any right to do so, sir you don't.

Let me go street on you, why not just like what you like and shut the albino frog up about the other stuff you do not like.(your whining)

And yes I too whine, but in my case its about better care for the animals.

In your case, its not illegal, immoral, or against any set of laws, biological or otherwise. You simply do not like it.

So I will return to what I said, either shut up or do something about it. Thanks and best wishes

Then why don't YOU just shut the $%*@ up and stop whining about my posts?
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"It does not take an Einstein to breed snakes in captivity. Or to be good at it"

Yes, I won't argue that at all Frank. That only illustrates and reinforces my points all too well.

cheers & best wishes ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

i think that's an atypical example.

a better example is to look at corn snake morphs; a mishmash of genetic abnormalities from all along their range, creating offspring that, while similar phenotypically, would never meet in nature. which is, in fact, the textbook definition of a biological hybrid.

and nice amphibians. can barely find any around my place anymore. what, with all the housing developments paving over the wetlands i used to herp as a kid...
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i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

I think corn snakes are the same as the white sided whatever's FR cited. They're all mixed in with a lot more than different locales now. He was talking about a amelanistic animal, in his mind, being the same as a hybrid, I think.

Thanks, frogs are not in short supply here in Florida.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

If we are going to ask eachother questions, why isn't your yard and whole area full of albinos?

You see, they are selected against, or they would be common or even take over normal colored individuals, but they don't.

Or at least they haven't. Which is the beauty of natural selection. It does what it does, it keeps the animals in check for each and every locale. And as conditions change, the phenotype can change with it. Its a song and a dance.

In captivity, its a different song and dance.
If you take that albino Cuban treefrog(feral/invasive) species, and back breed it, you will express tens of thousands of albino frogs, which is your intend, yes? Now compare the treefrogs in your yard to the ones in your cages.

There is reason, your back yard is not full of albinos.

Also, its about time, outside conditions can indeed support morphs, like striped snakes that were normally blotched(an example) but normally only for short periods of time. Say a decade or less. Then the population will return to normal.

Such morphs as axanthics and striping etc, are indeed normal to other species, so it takes a little more time to clean up.

Now take your model, albinos and change it to hybrids, which do occur on a very regular basis, they like your albinos they are also cleaned up and disappear. They are selected against.

They disappear because they are unfit for the conditions they must live in. Which does not make them mutts or any the the derogatory names you guys apply to captive crosses. In all reality, captive crosses for all but the most extreme cases of deliterious inbreeding, are FIT for captivity. You just do not happen to like them and that is YOUR right. But to call them names because you do not like them, makes you the derogatory name.

All in all its about human behavior, and what your doing(how your acting) with your buddies, are wanta be elitists, that is, you want want your doing to be elite, but then so is what others are doing(ones with crosses) so it ends up being very human silly games that do not have a thing to do with the snakes/frogs etc.

Now for one last crazy biological thought, every species, every local type, started from a morph/cross/hybrid. They evolved, which means they are different then what the came from. Cheers

The guy that found mine and the other hundreds, finds them every year, in the same spot. They haven't been produced in captivity yet, the hundreds have all been found in the wild.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

How is it that the albinos keep popping up? Because, the hets are normal looking and survive just like normals, cause they are. The frogs just produce a butt ton of offspring that give you a better chance of seeing the albino offspring. Have a good day, keep smiling.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I understand the rest of what you're trying to say. The only difference is, like you said, it's what is natural. Breeding a Mexican black to a florida isn't something that happens in the wild. It's not about being better than anyone but about having the animals be, what they are label as being. Saying that its always been that way is just trying to justify not worrying about it. Stop worrying about it like you say, it takes two to argue.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

and your basis for this is?
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

what is a blaze phase anyway?

See you spoke and put you foot in the mouth. AGAIN!

So far there is no recessive trait in kings that are a Blaze phase or aka hyperythristic trait. So where do you suggest it came from?

Stupid losing argument there buddy. no one ever has contested the Blaze to be a man made cross.

You should have used another morph as an example. Come back next year an replace that morph name for another and maybe you'll get better. LOL!

Even the ones who are on your side of the debate are shaking their heads at you . Ahhh ha ha ha AH HA HA HA HA! they are clinching their teeth and their buttocks and are remarkably silent.
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The theory that Blaze goini were simply hypo brooks goini crosses was found false went test breedings proved that blaze and hypo traits are non-allelic.

Though blaze goini have since been widely crossed to other forms of the Florida complex, it does not suffice to simply say that the trait originally popped up out of crosses or as the result of crossing.

As with most of these things, it hinges on one's judgement of the character of the people involved. My take was that GC was being straight I therefore have no reason to suspect the original blaze of being hybrids but then neither did I ever consider them to be local specifics. If that is the standard, them virtually all market Florida complex kings are hybrids and singling out Blaze for special treatment reflects a poor understanding of the issues at hand.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

nobody cares what a nobody says.
it must a terrible exhistance to be so ASHAMED of who you are as a person to hide behind a screenname a hurl accusations about something you have not a clue about.
sad
pathetic
pityful

,,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Yes, very PITYFUL!
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

It is a naturally occurring phase that has been accentuated/enhanced with selective breeding. That is neither a cross nor a hybrid.

You've been told the wrong information. Anyone with some common sense can clearly see the fact they are all hybrids/crosses. Even the supposed originator of them is known for crossing everything else into goini to produce axanthics, amels, and other morphs. Take a look at some real goini and maybe you'll notice how those blase have other things mixed into them.

I know next to nothing about them, so since it isn't natural, please explain exactly what it is.

for all i know, you could very well be right, but for those of us that are here to learn a thing or two about these awesome animals and havent already made up our minds about everything under the sun, your argument is completely invalid until you find a way to back it up.

not trying to be rude, just want to learn something (if there is something to learn)
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1.1 Argentine Boas
1.1 Dumerils Boas
1.1 Black Milk Snakes
2.3 California King Snakes
1.1 Nelsons Milk Snakes
2.2 Corn Snakes

I did not create them so only the person that bred whatever into goini would really know. My guess would be either Florida or California kings or possibly both. Throw into the mess that it used to be thought that goini was a intergrade with Florida kings but that theory has been proven not valid. But breeders used to breed their Floridas with their goini all the time because of that old theory. My bet would be that a lot of the goini seen in the hobby have some Florida in them whether people know it or not. Most breeders have no history on their animals. Only maybe that they got their animals from other said breeders.

Look at some of the wild caught goini out there and then look at those blase. Of course not all goini are going to look alike but they have certain characteristics not seen in the blase. It's pretty clear.

I had a Blaze before just about anyone did as I designed GC's ad and that's what payment was a blaze and a het I believe. Anyway I really don't know if its a hybrid but I can speak on my thoughts on the Blaze I had. The Blaze was color wise stunning but the overall physicalness of the animal was disappointing. It didn't have good muscle tone and seemed rather narrow overall. I'm used to a more rounded Normal King body and this snake had a more laterally compressed look. It just didn't feel like a vigorous animal. My first thought wasn't hybrid though and I'm not really sure what the truth is. I guess I'm indifferent on them.

Keith

What did you think about the head pattern on them? From all the blase I've seen, even their head patterns looking nothing like what you see on the wc goini. Blase heads seem to be much, much lighter which I assume is from the California Kings crossed into them.

The head pattern was odd but not Cal King like at all. I doubt any Cal King was used I just don't see how that equals a Blaze. I would instead lean towards a Bloodred Corn or something along those lines. I really don't know if the Blaze is a hybrid but whether it was or wasn't its now been bred into untold amount of Goini/meansi and Floridana.

Keith

You can't really compare wild goini to countless years of captive selective breeding like the one's in question though. That is like comparing a wild Okeetee corn to a captive-produced peppermint corn, or a striped/patternless Terazzo corn, even though the Terrazzo originates from Florida Keys lineage.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yes you can. Just because something has been line bred for years to look a certain way does not mean the animals will lose the normal characteristics of what make it a Corn or any other type of snake. All those Corn morphs in the hobby that originated from only other Corns will still have what makes them look like a Corn. The blase without a doubt have other things in them as they do not have the normal characteristics of any wild goini.

Are you saying that this line-bred pure Terazzo corn (P.g.guttatus) still has the same characteristics of a normal wild corn???..LOL!

Plenty of old-school authentic hypo floridana have weird light heads and "busier" patterning too.

Don't get me wrong, I hate bogus counterfeit stuff, but I know about ALL SORTS of authentic stuff that displays NO similarities to their normal typical counterparts whatsoever. I could show an entire slideshow of real stuff that is like this.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

If you were to not tell someone what that snake is, most people I bet would say it is indeed a Corn because of certain characteristics. This is not the case with the blase.

What is this snake?

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

i know

,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It's definitely a kingsnake from the eastern part of the US. Looks like possibly Florida or Outer Banks even but definitely not an Eastern or goini. There's no telling what else may be in it's genes as only the breeder that produced it would know but certain characteristics clearly show it is mostly some type of king.

mostly huh???

ROFLMFAO

,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Yeah, a pure authentic aberrant Outer Banks (L.g.sticticeps) produced by Howie Sherman.

It's directly related to my group. Very old photo though.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Beautiful snake there my friend!
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks!,.....yep, love those guys!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I never would have guessed. Nice animal.
Have any of you heard about an experment where someone got California kings, and nothing else. Selectively bred them, and eventually produced a snake that looked like a Florida king. I heard about this 25 years ago, so I'm not sure I got it right, but does that ring a bell to anybody?

In all this you STILL have not said what characteristics or lack of make you think blaze aren't goini.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

It is a kingsnake that shouldn't get a second look from someone interested in keeping pure forms.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

unless there is credible evidence to the contrary.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I would certainly agree with that 100%. If it were sitting on just anyone's table and I saw it labeled as an Outer Banks I would roll my eyes and continue right along. Luckily there is no question as to it's authentic locale L.t.sticticeps lineage.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

At first glance I thought it was some sort of mosaic or something but I generally don't give such pattern anomalies a second look regardless. I have a weakness for the classics and generally look for perfect patterns which are more rare than such aberrancies.

I agree on the heritage of that animal but I would like to know what you know of it.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

It was produced by Howie Sherman, who also produced my two very classic and aberrant OBX breeder stock animals. A friend of mine bought that weird looking aberrant from Howie at a N. Carolina show this past season.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

hahhaha yeah theres definately NOT ANY obseleta in that snakes makeup a trueblue linebred cornsnake there

,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas,...please tell me that you are really not as completely clueless as you come across here???..

If FR or Rainer posted it, you would be "T-bagging" them about it's authenticity...

HAHAAHHAHAA!!!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

If I read you wrong and you meant that it WAS a pure corn with no obsoletus, then I'll apologize.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

oh its pure alright

pure snakes... gotta luvem

,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Yep, my apologies then. I thought you were being big-time sarcastic in your post about the obsoletus..LOL!

yep, a pure true corny snake morph..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah, thought he was being tommy. It's weird when he acts like he does in real life, huh.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

the lrg.head the lateral patterning and striping and im sure white patternless belly are all corny traits taxonomy overstep imho rosecae is.... well you know...
naturally occuring

its all good.

i get it.

now breeding that cornsnake with one from say n.carolina or Va. or even n.fla. is just like me breeding my mongrelkings.
whats produced is UNnatural and is solely for "pets" unfit for the wild even though "the wild" would absorb them like a drop of red dye in the ocean.

its all good.

i get it.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

There he is......
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I had those 10 years ago, cool Rosys.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

yep,......they are very cool southern "rosascea" variants Gerard...
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I remember the first ones that were produced. I wish I hadn't got rid of those things.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

KJ Lodrigue says Craig Boyd started them in the late 90's from some wild-caught Keys corns. Then Don Soderberg got a bunch from Gus Rentfro. Miami corn got crossed into some of them, but not all. Soderberg had a boat-load of the original pure lineage ones from Gus, and those are the same ones my buddy Jim Godfrey and his partner Daryl Camby both work with today. They have some insane Terrazzo multi-morphs too that are screaming neon pink!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Are you saying that it has "nefarious' backround? LOL!

You are not very good at impostering an imposter. Which is Nobody. Nobody is the the real keith Hillson and you are a nobody.
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I see your point and understand that it has the potential to be valid.

however how can you KNOW that is what happend? lots of snakes have been selectively bread to exibit traits that aren't recessive or co-dom. breeders just worked with certain individuals and line bred for years to get characteristics to "pop" more. some of the extremely high white cal kings, okeetee phase corns that have outrageous red color with black borders that are 5 times thicker than what you'd ever see in the wild, and hog island boas that have virtually no specs and are extremely pink looking nothing like wild types for example.
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1.1 Argentine Boas
1.1 Dumerils Boas
1.1 Black Milk Snakes
2.3 California King Snakes
1.1 Nelsons Milk Snakes
2.2 Corn Snakes

Even with those that you mentioned, one can clearly tell an Okeetee Corn for example is indeed a Corn. The colors may be brighter in those cb animals but they still retain all the other characteristics of any Corn. This is not so with the Blase. Even if the blase were originally just high red animals, they should still retain the other normal characteristics of goini. One of the main problems in the hobby, as I mentioned before, is people used to breed Florida kings into their goini lines for years. So much of what you see out there is not what typical goini should look like. Look at the WC animals and look at those blase and you can clearly see which characteristics do not match.

Agreed you are indeed guessing.

If you want to lump all generic goini in as potential hybrids that is fine but you have specifically sited blaze. I believe that to do so you should present supporting evidence beyond an uninformed guess.

Just because you do not understand the mechanism of this trait is not sufficient evidence of its origin. The fact of the matter is that blaze is a trait. It is passed on and inherited as a simple recessive. That it emerged in a line bred hi-red line of generic goini does not make it a line bred creation. My experience with the blaze trait, which is significant, is that it is not hypertheristic but some form of hypomelanism. As with many other forms of hypomelanism this trait affects both pattern elements and the intensity of melanin in the phenotype. In other words, not only is black pigment muted to varying degrees but the area occupied by melanin based pigment is also diminished. The original het blaze exhibited typical goini pattern elements. So did the F2 possible hets. Recessive traits affecting pattern elements are nothing new and shouldn’t be hard to understand.

It should also be noted that the assumption that blaze as a trait were just some sort of goini x hypo brooks cross was tested by controlled breedings and found to be false. You breed a blaze to a hypo brooks and you get double hets. To my knowledge all other types of hypo that have manifest in the FL complex have been allelic and there is no other trait out there that it is comparable too or compatible with blaze. If I’m wrong, and there are test breeding to prove me so, I’ll gracefully yield to the facts but as yet nobody including Nobody has presented anything beyond unsubstantiated and ill informed opinion.

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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

‘Blaze’ is a marketing word. To me it is sort of ‘brown’. That color has always been common in Goini. It has been accentuated or exaggerated through selective breeding of Goini, not a hybrid or cross. Very simple, no conspiracy there. Blotched Kingsnakes, selectively bred for that juvenile ‘orange’ (will be brown) color. This is an idiotic thing to be arguing about. You claim “all”, I think you are wrong. There are hybrids and crosses, and some with this in it, but there are blaze phase Goini that are neither. IMO.

I agree, Norm....

There are certainly TONS of blaze crosses out there, and there are coutless flame hypo brooks x blaze crosses, and any combination of said ssp. percentage in between. But the accentuated red pigment on the original blaze goini in my opinion is simply accentuated red pigment (erythrin) from line-breeding. As many know, both floridana and goini can commonly express quite a bit of red pigment when young. The blaze goini are just a little richer colored and can retain it a bit longer in some, but not many.They're sometimes more patternless just as normal goini/meansi can display. Those all generally tends to fade big-time into a tannish-brown snake as they mature just as you mentioned that's not much different at all than many normal goini. Seems that the VERY red-headed hatchlings have a tendency to remain the reddest as they mature more.

Also I'm sure you and most everyone else with any knowledge of how this hobby works can eaily assume there's not much doubt that Cal. kings have been hybridized into them too, just like almost any other type of popular colubrid hobby snake, but there is no way they got the red hypererythristic trait from any Cal. king. I see all sorts of red goini that look like any other goini without the exaggerated red pigment.

Yeah, it definitely ain't like the good ol' days back when Dealy's Aquarium pet store was around when you, Paul Stone and I were kids, huh??..LMAO!!...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"We all know it. It's sad that some here are still trying to say that they are the real thing but those hybrid breeders will always say such."

Nobody was trying to target me so it must have been you.

LOL!
I can see Geraldo is trying to do damage control while Billyest and Douglasville remaim encourable from the sidelines (tongue in cheek) whilst their Good buddy Keith Killson just got gutter raped.
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The story is still unfolding but we will have a news reel at 11 of the horrific yet unfortunate gutter incident..
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I'm not trying to do anything, agreeing with something someone says is what normal people do when it makes sense. FR and you say things all the time I agree with, we only argue about the stuff we don't feel the same about. I'm not scared to say it, you should try it. Acting tough isn't actually tough.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Acting tough isn't actually tough

So you are saying you are actually not a dik?
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Rainer

Quit using my name and accusing me of having anything to do with this thread. I have every right to call you on kingsnake's TOS ...but in the spirit of posting here again ill just ask you kindly to refrain.

Regards

Keith Hillson

Really? How do i know this is really Keith?

Oh wait nobody is keith. Or is it the other way around.

You know you it is not smart to post under keith hillsons name as it could lead to further eternal banment. Or what is beyond that...is there such a thing as total anihilation?..no wait, that was your website.
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Whatever.

Whatever, whoever
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Perfect example of how to lose respect from people. I would lay off the steroids for a bit and try to calm down and actually think about what you post. People might start taking you seriously and listen to what you have to say. Usually I just ignore yours and a few others posts. Your immaturity wreaks in here so you may want to go back and read what Gerard wrote as he was being civil and not a child like you come across.

Hey i am not the one with the alter ego.
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