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Tony D Feb 14, 2013 09:49 AM

A little history on the Blaze phase goini. In the late 90s several breeders including myself and the McQuates we independently working on line breeding for “hi-red” goini. As most people know neonate goini are spectacular animals but loose much of their color as adults. None of us at the time were working with locality specimens but neither were we looking to outcross these animals into anything that would dilute the intensity of red. It was during this period that the McQuates popped out a rather unique animal that was a quantum improvement over the rest of the clutch. This one snake was the first blaze and it was bred back into the line and proved to behave as a simple recessive trait. This is a key point; “blaze” as a trait arose out of a line-bred project but is a discrete heritable trait that follows a classic mendelion pattern.

It has been said to be a HYPERtheristic (sp?) because it looked intensely red as a neonate but I came to believe that is was some sort of HYPOmelanism. I thought this for two reasons. Number 1, if you were expecting a hi red animal the original blaze disappointed as adults. Second, normal goini are hi high red as neonates. I theorized that they just looked redder because the melanin was reduced. I was not alone in this and several detractors started saying that the blaze line was simple a goini X hypo brooks cross. This “theory” was tested and found to be false as goini proved not to be allelic with the hypo trait found in brooks kings. At the time there were several line of hypo brooks but all were know to be allelic or compatible.

Still accusations that the McQuate created blaze by crossing persists. People who push this have to conveniently forget that it’s a heritable trait not idetified in other kings and site pattern characteristics they feel are un-goini. However, just because one does not understand the mechanism of this trait is not sufficient evidence of its origin.

My experience with blaze is that this form of hypomelanism , as do others, affects not only the intensity of melanin but pattern elements as well. In other words, not only is black pigment muted to varying degrees but the area occupied by melanin based pigment is also diminished.

The attached picture demonstrates this. You can see that the primary blotch element of the patter has greatly reduced amount of melanin with pigmented area receding to the scale edges. The inter space pattern which would normally have lighter scales with clean well defined tips of darker pigment show a similar though nearly complete recession of pigmentation. Given that the original het blaze exhibited typical goini pattern elements the anomaly observed in the homozygous form has to be attributed to the trait. Anyone claiming that it’s due to crossing isn’t looking at the evidence.

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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Replies (65)

Tony D Feb 14, 2013 09:50 AM

BTW, this was one of the original blaze.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

thomas davis Feb 14, 2013 11:21 AM

good stuff tony

,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tony D Feb 14, 2013 12:09 PM

My experience with blaze is that this form of hypomelanism , as do others, affects not only the intensity of melanin but pattern elements as well. In other words, not only is black pigment muted to varying degrees but the area occupied by melanin based pigment is also diminished.

After re-reading the post I wanted to revisit this portion. My observations of blaze leads me to believe that the primary mechanism is a reduction in the amount a melanin vice the reduction in its intensity. This is not without analogue. There are two closely related milk snakes that each exhibit a form of hypomelanism, syspila and temproalis. In the syspila hypo there is a general reduction in the amount of melanin. As a result the reds and white are cleaner and the black bands are more slight but remain well defined. In temporalis the hypo trait primarily manfests as a reduction in the intensity of the black pigment. Hypo temporalis can look anywhere from just a very clean looking normal (kind of like the syspila hypo) to something that almost looks albino. In fact many people call them T plus albinos (which is another misnomer).

Anyway my take is that the blaze trait is similar to the syspila type of hypo. As neonates these guys are blazing. The red, ever present in neonate goini, is more prominent because its less masked by melanin not because there is more of it. As the animal ages and both red and black pigments fade you're left with an animal that in my opinion lacks the contrast and luster of the original.

I've posted a couple of pics of the hypo temporalis to show the range of expression you can seen in the melanin. The lone animal is quite dark while those in the clutch shot almost look albino. part of that difference is exposure but not much. As an aside the darker ones look better as adults.

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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

a153fish Mar 12, 2013 09:22 AM

I know this is old but there has to be some different genes at play between the dark ones, and those looking like albinos. Maybe there is an intermediate genotype, similar to the Peanut Butter and Jelly Brooks? That dark one looks T to me. Those have always been on my wish list by the way.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

GerardS Feb 14, 2013 12:46 PM

I enjoyed that history and I bet you had some amazing animals. The story I have heard and I'm hoping that he will come and post himself, is that the original animals didn't only come from wc goini/meansi but other breeders offspring as well. The animals back then were thought to be just a Floridana and were regularly mixed together. As for the inheritance of the morph, it could have easily popped out of a unintentional crossing and has nothing to do with my opinion on the animals.

F1 female

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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tony D Feb 14, 2013 01:19 PM

There is no doubt about the fact that the entire eastern complex was widely crossed and these were indeed the early days of striving to create as many new morphs and morph combinations as possible. The original albino Florida kings, at least the ones I saw in 93, were obvious Cal king crosses.

Despite this, there was nothing you could cross a goini to that would increase the amount of red. You didn't get a hi-red goini by crossing it into easterns or Floridas you got it by aquireing and breeding the best goini and holding back the best of the best. This is just my two cents but the strategy behind developing a hi red line of goini pretty much ensured that they were among the least compromised lines available in those days.

Now if a few zealots want to call out all hobby generics as hybrid crap that's a point of opinion I've learned to live with but calling out a specific line as was done earlier with blaze only demonstrated a poor understanding of the animals history and husbandry.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

GerardS Feb 14, 2013 03:15 PM

What I meant was, I understand the blaze is a unique morph and isn't the product of hybridizing. Line breeding like you guys were doing is exactly how you would prove out a trait hidden in a species. If you breed a hypo brooks to a goini and breed those babies back to each other, you would get hypo crosses, right? I am by no means saying that is what I think about how the blaze were made, not at all. I think it is a unique morph that poped up from a wc line that was crossed at one point. The crap I was referring to was all the hobby generics, animals being sold as meansi/goini that are not. The Blaze that SOMEBODY started are included in that.

Dixie county intergrade

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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Splitfire59 Feb 14, 2013 07:30 PM

That's a beauty.

DMong Feb 14, 2013 01:04 PM

Yes, I agree that they originated as authentic goini, and many others out there even right now are indeed still authentic un-crossed blaze goini. But by the same token there are also countless goini x floridana (brooksi), hypo brooksi x blaze goini, hypo flame brooksi x blaze goini, etc... that look extremely similar to each other. Many out there being sold as either this type or that type are definitely unknown origin crosses too.....LOTS of them.

I often point out the origin histories of certain subspecies or certain morphs to enter the hobby regarding many different types of snakes. And what some started out as and what many actually are now can often be two very different things as the years go by. I have lots of pics of these very known crosses from different people's breedings, and with many you can't tell which are which if your life depended on it.

I also have a photo of a hypo brooksi x Eastern getula that looks absolutely identical to a pure Eastern getula as well. Don't get me wrong.....I'm not trying to toss a wrench into the authenticity of all of the blaze goini,....far from it. I'm just making it very clear that there are loads of these misrepresented crosses sold as authentic "Blaze" goini out there too. There is no way on earth that I believe all of them out there labeled and sold as "Blaze goini" are indeed the same authentic Blaze goini as the originals were, although some certainly are. It all depends on who has fiddled with what, and who hasn't. Not any different than lots of other stuff out there.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Tony D Feb 14, 2013 01:29 PM

That is a completely different issue.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

CrimsonKing Feb 14, 2013 01:28 PM

Tony are there any pix of an adult patternless blaze? And some full body shots of adults?
Thx.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Tony D Feb 14, 2013 01:36 PM

Mark that's all I have. I lost most of my pics years ago in a hard drive crash. Most recently I got out of blaze for the simple reason that they don't live up to the promise.

I seem to recall seeing a pic of a patternless blaze but again it was lass attractive than the original. You see that one Jerry posted on FB?
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

CrimsonKing Feb 14, 2013 03:03 PM

too bad about the crash. It seems we've all had at least one of those.
I was just curious since I rarely see any adult blaze..I know they must be out there somewhere....I mean, somebody must have kept a few...
I'll look for JK's pics...
I remember back to some of my original goini and their babies. In the same clutch there'd be silver-ish, gold-ish, patterned and such. Only a few were red...Then everyone thought red was cool, so I went in that direction.....produced some really colorful animals, some of which held a good bit of color. Now I'm kinda in between on what I have and what I would like to work on with the looks.....Some wc that have pattern and some cb that are mostly w/out pattern.....
We'll see....

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

GerardS Feb 14, 2013 03:18 PM

Did you keep any of last years babies?
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

CrimsonKing Feb 14, 2013 07:18 PM

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Tony D Feb 14, 2013 03:49 PM

I liked the yellow one best but the reds sold.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Spankenstyne Feb 15, 2013 12:28 AM

I have a pair that are supposedly from GC. I have no way of proving it though, a friend picked them up in Daytona years ago for me as babies and was sure it was from their table but he brought back a lot of stuff and was grabbing them as a favour.

I'm up in Canada & we have very few eastern getula being worked with up here period so those of us that do keep them tend to try and keep them as pure to type as possible, but we're also at the mercy of whoever we get them from as to their true lineage like anything else.

Anyway here's a couple of adult pictures as requested.
Apologies for the poor quality, and the pics are a couple of years old but gives a general idea.

I don't know if others have found this as well, but as they age I've found the males to have held their colours and stay brighter than the females. Could be a fluke & I don't have enough of them to say with absolute certaintly, but just an obervation based on mine & the feedback from folks who have bought the babies I produced. the Male is the one with the brighter colour and more orange head. The female was in shed but gives a basic idea:


Image

CrimsonKing Feb 15, 2013 05:02 AM

Thanks. Those are big robust animals. Some of my males (not blaze) also hold color longer as well.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Tony D Feb 15, 2013 06:33 AM

Definitely blaze, lineage I can't say but they seem to have held their color nicely. I would even say they're less hypo-ish than the ones I worked with.

I would tend to agree about males being nicer. Its not 100% set in stone but its a pretty good chance that the best looking neonates are going to be male. As far as holding color I can't say. Some of my best looking adults were yellow females with touches of red but a lot of that is just personal preference.

For reasons I have sited here I wouldn't worry about continuing to work with them. The trait has altered the distribution of pigment on these and there is noting otherwise about the animals that suggests they are aren't goini. They are generics for sure but there is nothing wrong with that especially in the context of morph production. I see no reason to give up hard won stocks to pursue a more pure lineage when the two are so easily compartmentalized. People who say otherwise are just marketing.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

GerardS Feb 15, 2013 07:11 AM

"People who say otherwise are just marketing"

Marketing what?
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tony D Feb 15, 2013 09:12 AM

Excuse the paraphrase but you've already said real snakes over crap. Remember......

"I have some very sweet wc meansi that My friend and I are working with. The goal, to get some real examples of this species into the hobby and try and weed out all the crap."

Trashing the competition to gain an advantage is a classic example of base marketing. You want to know how its done with class, look at Nick M. He's put in the field time and has some of the badest local getula around. He's well known, respected and he's done it without trashing what's gone before him. I haven't picked up my last snakes from him.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony D Feb 15, 2013 09:14 AM

BTW I love the "weed out ALL the crap" part. Such ambition.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

GerardS Feb 15, 2013 09:38 AM

"Most people would succeed in small things if they were not troubled with great ambitions."
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

GerardS Feb 15, 2013 09:32 AM

Yes, Nick is in the snake selling business as, I'm assuming, you are, too. I AM Not! I am in the, snakes are my hobby and I don't try to make money or have to worry about what potential costomers think of me category. That is a very big factor that dictates what someone says on here, not always what their opinions are, though. Try and understand that, I am here for what I like. I don't even have a problem with Cris or Sheila, they're very nice people. The people that I have trashed on here are 100% equally guilty of returning or initiating it.

I agree, Nick Mesa is your best bet at getting a real Kingsnake and is someone I have spent a lot of time talking to for the reasons you mentioned.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tony D Feb 15, 2013 10:09 AM

I used too but now I sell off a few surplus. mostly I've been experimenting with new ways of keeping and breeding beyond the classic plastic box method. Results are sketchy, the animals are healthier and feed better but breeding success has been very limited for several years.

Anyway my role here is just as a market watcher. I'm interested in where the market goes and why it goes there. Some trends are good others not so much. I like the trend towards more natural forms but am really taken back by the divisiveness. Time was we all really did just like snakes and enjoy each other's company.

I will say this though if you're not in the business I don't think you've thought things out very well. You're working with wild caughts and have a goal to weed out all the crap. How are you going to do that, by giving the offspring you produce away? How much buyin do you think you're going to get giving snakes away? I could give everything I produces away but people who pay nothing for animals generally don't take care of them much less worry about preserving lineage.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

DMong Feb 15, 2013 10:50 AM

Tony, he didn't mean that he was going to get rid of all the crap literally. He meant that he won't contribute to it at ALL by having and offering only authentic species/subspecies.

Also, he has been deeply involved with a couple of the most respected and knowledgeable old-school reptile dealers in the entire world...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

kh70 Feb 16, 2013 12:06 PM

I don't know Tony those don't look like a Blaze to me. They look like those Brooksi Goini crosses that are so prevalent these days.

Tony D Feb 21, 2013 08:53 AM

Besides pigment distribution attributable to the blaze trait, what about these makes you think they are crosses?

It certainly isn't pattern. You put brooks in the wood pile and the "blotch" element of the pattern contracts significantly. I don't see any evidence of that in these animals. Of course opinions vary but if you took the blaze trait out of these animals, I believe they would look like a classic goini.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

GerardS Feb 21, 2013 09:35 AM

Do you have pics of the f1 and f2 hypo brooks x goini hets you made?
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tony D Feb 21, 2013 09:57 AM

No lost everything some years back in a hard drive crash.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

GerardS Feb 21, 2013 10:55 AM

Don't you still have the snakes?
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tony D Feb 21, 2013 12:25 PM

No I got out of most everything for a few years. Once I hit 50 I started wondering how much of my remaining time I wanted to spend cleaning snake cages.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sean Feb 15, 2013 07:27 AM

Tony,

If you are defining this as a hypo trait, how is it the blotches keep their dark, black pigment and yet the bands as you say lose much/most of theirs? I have yet to see a hypo trait that will reduce black pigment in one area but not another. The blotches on AKs naturally lighten to varying degrees as they age so how could this be determined to be due to a hypo trait?

One thing I have seen with the wild caught AKs is that they have a half light/half black coloration on the bands. Why is it many of the blaze do not have this? And if you are saying it is because of the hypo gene, then why on those same snakes are the blotches keeping their normal dark pigment?

The lack of this half light/half black coloration on the bands is one thing that leads me to believe these are not real AKs but also look at that head pattern. Spankenstyne posted two below but look at the head on the first one. It screams to me that there is something else mixed in with that line. I have seen that with many of the blaze and no wild caught AK I have seen from myself or anyone else has ever even come close to having a head pattern with almost no black in it whatsoever. Are you saying this is also due to the hypo gene in the blaze? If so, why are the blotches on Spankenstyne's photo also dark as they should be?

One last question, do you know or have any possible idea where the original animals that produced the blaze came from? I know the McQuades produced the so called blaze but where did they get the parents from?

GerardS Feb 15, 2013 08:33 AM

Yo, what up man? You would think there would be some record of the original animals, wc or not, and some locality info.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tony D Feb 15, 2013 10:17 AM

You are operating on a consensus bias.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

GerardS Feb 15, 2013 10:58 AM

I assume posting this under my response to Sean's post you think he doesn't share my opinion. He is someone I think we can both agree has some knowledge about the species and dedicates his time to learning everything about them. Lets see what information he has learned when he responds to you later.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tony D Feb 15, 2013 11:32 AM

on the contrary I think you are parroting his opinion. That's why I was glad he chimed in.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

GerardS Feb 15, 2013 11:48 AM

Yes, I asked him to because he has a lot more knowledge on the subjects history than I do.

Aside from the back and forth between us and your opinion on what you think about the morph, do you have any info on the founder animals, wc, cb, ect.?

I don't think anyone made a hybrid on purpose to sell and make money or anything like that. I just think that the morph popped up from AK's but in intergrade clutches. That's based off of the info from others and then forming my own opinion.

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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

CrimsonKing Feb 15, 2013 03:58 PM

...were the founders goini or meansi...
...shoot, maybe youze should rehash the albinos too....
Have fun...
I was gonna feed this weekend but it's gonna get cold again.....so I get another week to decide which pairs I want to put together......

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

GerardS Feb 15, 2013 04:06 PM

I didn't start this conversation and don't think the albinos even deserve any thought.

I know, this weather is even crazier than last year. All my females were swimming around eating pretty much the whole time. Hopefully it won't affect my production, again.

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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

GerardS Feb 15, 2013 04:08 PM

How's that big female mole doing?
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

DMong Feb 15, 2013 05:11 PM

Bet ya didn't know they love skinks!...
Image
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Sean Feb 15, 2013 08:54 PM

I asked Tony about some history on what he knows on their origins so just waiting for him to respond. From what I know, I've yet to hear anything other than they came from some breeder.

Tony D Feb 15, 2013 09:57 AM

Hi Sean I was hoping you'd weigh in.

I'm not sure that hypo is the best term for what this trait does but its certainly better than hypertheristic. I made a post in this thread titled "a bit more" that gives a little further explanation of what I'm thinking but the big thing is this:

het blaze have the typical pattern elements you're talking about

of the original only the homozygous form did not.

therefore I attribute the anomaly to the trait not the origin of the stock.

I hope that my thinking on this is more clear this time around you and look forward to your comment.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

DMong Feb 15, 2013 11:12 AM

"I'm not sure that hypo is the best term for what this trait does but its certainly better than hypertheristic"

I'm only mentioning this because you spelled it the same way twice. The term is hyperERythristic, as in exaggerated (hyper) erythrism.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Tony D Feb 15, 2013 11:33 AM

spelling is not my forty
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony D Feb 15, 2013 11:38 AM

In watching the outcome of the hypo brooks x goini crossings a very high percentage of F2 generations are very nearly patternless. Don't you find it odd that this was missing from the original blaze lineup? Why did we have to wait to see actual blaze X hypo crosses to see this if blaze is just hypo?
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

GerardS Feb 15, 2013 11:56 AM

I don't think that hypo brooks had anything to do with the blaze. It is clearly a unique morph, much like the ultra/ultramel corn snake was a unique Grey Rat morph.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

DMong Feb 15, 2013 12:15 PM

Or the amel "Honduran" gene from the two original L.t.polyzona groups imported in from Leipzig Germany back in 1994 and 95 from the Hortenbach's. Although the Hortenbach's did market them in Germany as what they actually were....amelanistic Atlantic Central American milksnakes (L.t.polyzona).

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Tony D Feb 20, 2013 06:03 AM

Can you ID the alternate source? If not you are doing nothing but speculating and you are doing it with absolutely nothing to go on.

I'd also like to know where you were when all this went down? Were you even into herps or interested in goini. Did you see the original clutch, have you talked to the breeder or are you going off of second hand info and supposition?
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

GerardS Feb 20, 2013 06:49 PM

Sean was waiting for you to respond to him about your experience with the line so he can share what has been learned. You can find his question below.
Goodnight!

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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Tony D Feb 21, 2013 10:00 AM

I did respond though it might have been to the wrong post. In any case I've commented on my take and observations several times. it gets a bit frustrating trying to follow and keep up with every branch of a thread which wouldn't be required if people read with a bias towards understanding one another instead of trying to prove others wrong.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sean Feb 15, 2013 08:16 PM

Tony,

When I had contacted GCR years back, I was sent photos of some of their offspring. What is interesting is some of those that were labeled as het for blaze lacked the half black/half light coloration on the bands and had light heads like what I've seen in other blaze. Then there were some labeled as blaze that had that split scale coloration on the bands. So these seems to differ from what you are saying you are seeing.

I also had saved some photos of various AKs posted by others here over the years and several that were labeled as Hypos, look just like your blaze in the banding and light heads, yet these did not have any red.

Whatever trait it is, as you compared it to hypo in the temporalis, I still do not see how if it were the hypo gene in the AKs that would make the bands have less melanin but yet the blotches remain normal. IMO, it would seem something else is at work here which leads me to believe more that it is a result of some sort of cross/hybridization.

What do you know about the origin of the animals that produced the blaze?

DMong Feb 15, 2013 10:17 AM

Yeah Sean, I think substantial basal scale lightening as they mature often gets confused with hypomelanism too.

There is no question at all that many hypo floridana have the odd-looking "skelator" heads. Even the old-school lines originating back to Bill Love, Beard/Maxwell, etc...Many of them I saw that Beard had on his table back in the early-mid 90's for $700-750 each had the weird pale heads,...even many of the darker rusty-red colored hypos too.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Tony D Feb 15, 2013 10:27 AM

Those hypos brooks had a very weird head pigmentation which was lacking on blaze. I sighted this years ago and took it as evidence that the trait didn't even need to be tested. It was only after repeated insistence that blaze were a form of hypo brooks cross that I did the test breeding that disproved the assumption.

You also have to remember that the names we give these traits are made up out of whole cloth. They may or may not have the same mechanism. Two traits with the same name can act very differently. See my post about hypo syspila and temperalis.
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DMong Feb 15, 2013 10:41 AM

"Two traits with the same name can act very differently. See my post about hypo syspila and temperalis"

Yes, but I am also the last person that needs to be explained to. I mention the very same things to folks all the time. For instance... a Yellow ratsnake that has no yellow and is left with only gray with dark stripes is NOT an anerythristic as it would be in corns.

For instance, I know for a FACT that the extreme hypo gene is a hypo gene and not T-neg as a few have claimed. That is another entire issue most don't understand at all. I have disproved it beyond any doubt with breedings many times.

Anyway, no need for us to preach to the choir on that stuff.

~Doug
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Spankenstyne Feb 15, 2013 11:00 AM

I do wonder if perhaps "Blaze" is presenting both hypomelanism AND hypererythrism?

Might explain some of the unexpected inconsistencies coupled with the normal natural variation in AK's. The weird skeletor head pattern like the one on my male if you look closely enough has darker orange/brown where there should/would be the usual black markings.

What also makes me question it just being hypomelanism instead of hypererythrism is the eyes, the irises are red/orange in all the Blazes I've seen. Admittedly a low sample size but has been consistent through all the babies I've produced and the ones my buddy brought in that I picked mine from originally.

Sean Feb 15, 2013 08:30 PM

I seriously doubt it is any form of hypomelanism as the hypo trait is not going to just affect some areas with black pigment and skip others. What's happening with these blaze seems to be more pattern oriented, that is decreasing the amount of black (not the intensity of black) on the bands. I would say it's very likely this is due to it being crossed/hybridized.

As for the amount of red in the eyes, I had several clutches from wc AKs I found myself and many of the offspring had red eyes. I believe this is also seen in Florida Kings.

CrimsonKing Feb 15, 2013 09:00 PM

Sean the hypo FL kings often still had black, especially around the head/neck area. It was mostly gone with more selective breeding over the years. Similarly, we would look for clear bellies and keep those back...it seemed to be a marker of sorts for the better looking (lighter, more hypo) adults that would then produce even better babies.

one thing that is worth mentioning, I think, although I'm not sure where it comes into play here, is that some getula are much more predisposed to overall lightening as they mature...I'd say a FL king will lighten up whereas a Cal would not.....and just what are we seeing? The color is expressed in layers over the cell too, isn't it? If so, maybe there's certain levels that are being expressed/depressed via these genetic traits such as hypomelanism, etc.?

:Mark
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Sean Feb 15, 2013 09:18 PM

Mark,

I'm not sure really what we are seeing in the blaze as we do not really even know their true origin. So until that time, it may always remain a mystery. It's like the number of posts here from people asking what kind of king they have. Nobody would be able to answer that unless we were able to trace it's origin and find out some history.

Is that a FL King cross/hybrid in your photo? I see there's no red on the head so maybe the black pigment appears darker there than the rest of the body. So what the heck is that thing?

CrimsonKing Feb 15, 2013 09:39 PM

hypo FL king.

:Mark
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Tony D Feb 18, 2013 09:16 AM

I realize that hypo is a bad description but if you look at the hypo syspila you see a general cleaning of the ground and blotch color by the removal of melanin but the black bands remain black so selective reduction is not without precedent.

Given the nature of the market, not even the McQuate’s know the lineage with certainty. All I can go on is my observations and what I’m been told. The McQuates say “this” line was not knowingly adulterated and I saw the clutch that contained the original blaze. The normals all looked to be classic hobby line goini. When they became available I purchased a blaze and bred it into my line. Again all the hets looked every bit normal goini. My judgment on the line is pretty much that simple. I was told they weren’t knowingly crossed, I saw no evidence of it and I have not heard a convincing argument to the contrary. Lack of information on a lineage is simply not enough to convict. Now, the line that produced blaze certainly weren’t local specifics. Were I interested in maintaining locality goini, I wouldn’t have considered them.

The only reason I brought this up for discussion is because blaze was called out for specific attention when in reality all hobby herps are suspect. My take was that the poster was posturing and I don’t think it useful when we start placing ourselves, what we do, or are interested in above others. It doesn’t do the community at large any good and I believe it’s among the reasons why interest in colubrids has waned. I admire what you guys are doing with the eastern complex but the merits of your projects speak for themselves, there is no need for negativity. Ultimately, I think the negativity is counterproductive.

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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

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foxturtle Feb 16, 2013 01:52 PM

A blaze phase goini is as much a goini as anything else in the general pet trade today. I take the “innocent until proven guilty” approach. No one has brought any compelling evidence that they contain floridana influence. We don’t have a solid lineage for them, but we don’t really have a solid lineage for most of what gets bred. Most keepers aren’t worried about lineage, so the information is rarely retained when animals change hands. Even then, like a game of telephone, facts get misquoted and the info gets botched. I’ve seen it many times.

Goini in the pet trade are not the same snakes we see in the wild today. For decades “goini” has been used as a catch all trait for all Apalachicola type kingsnakes. They are cranked out in big numbers for the pet trade by commercial breeding facilities. They’ve been selectively bred for the cleanest banding (think less black stipling) and the reddest coloration. They are an amalgam of different localities that today might either be considered intergrades, or pure “meansi”.They are a domesticated snake, just like most other snakes that are heavily bred in the pet trade.

I guess my point is that we can’t hold the same standard for pet trade/generic lines that we do for locality lines. They serve different roles in the hobby. Known-lineage/locality is still a niche interest.
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Sean Feb 16, 2013 04:49 PM

What you see in the hobby today is mixed bag of all sorts, much of which no one can give any background on whether it be origin or even what has been bred to what. It is the main reason I stay away from pretty much anything out there sold as "goini". I prefer to stick with knowing that if I find one, it's the real deal. Then again, I don't keep anything as the real pleasure is being out in the field and finding them.

Tony D Feb 18, 2013 07:44 AM

Very well said Nick. You saved me a lot of time rehashing this with Sean. I really love what you guys are doing with the eastern complex kings and bringing knowledge of the diversity of phenotypes to bare.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

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