Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My graybanded kingsnake had surgery last spring, and I've been trying to get his weight back up ever since. He started eating, but has only been eating very small mice (only one at a time, and will only take them about every ten days). The last time I fed him I was excited because he took a bigger mouse (but still well within the size he should be eating). He ate it on a Sunday night, and sometime Tuesday night/Wednesday morning vomited up a 2/3 digested mouse. I tried to figure out why he would do that, and realized his tank only had overtank light for heat, no undertank (he'd never eaten in the winter before), so I put an undertank heater on his tank. I also got smaller frozen mice this time around. I've not handled or disturbed him since he vomited (and he's shed since then). My main question is that in researching this I found someone who said you shouldn't feed a snake that vomited for 2 weeks so it's stomach can recover. Is this true? Two weeks from when it was fed or when it vomited? Thanks for any suggestions.
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1.0.0 277 Graybanded Kingsnake, Boris Karloff
1.0.0 Crockett Graybanded Kingsnake, Julien Sands
1.0.0 Ball Python, Frank Langella
1.0.0 Pastel Ball Python, Claude Raines
1.0.0 Boa, Benedict Cumberboa (or Big Ben)
1.0.0 Sweet Rosy Bourke Parakeet, Didgeridoo
1.0.0 Ringneck Dove, Pimmdale Plumington
0.1.0 Smart & Loving Daughter

Yes, that is absolutely true that you need to allow the snake's gut time enough to recover before attempting to feed again (at least 10-12 days or so). That might have been one of my posts you saw, as I post about this very subject to folks very often. After that time period you should offer a much smaller meal for a few feeding to make sure its stomach is back to operating normally again with the acids, electrolytes and gut flora back in proper balance to be able to digest once again. The very WORST thing anyone could do is to immediately offer food after a regurge incident because it will only cause another regurge again and be many times worse every time after. The rotted food actually poisons their system. I just posted twice today about that as a matter of fact to some people that had their snakes regurgitate. Because the winter time is cooler and people have to tweek their setups accordingly to make sure the temps are right so this doesn't happen.

A snake has to have enough belly surface warmth to properly digest with temps of around 82-87F on one far end portion of its enclosure, but also have a cooler area to retreat to after digestion to conserve energy and body mass in the 70's for example, but it can even be cooler than that.....the important part is that it can seek enough warmth, then get away afterwards.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

A snake has to have enough belly surface warmth to properly digest with temps of around 82-87F on one far end portion of its enclosure, but also have a cooler area to retreat to after digestion to conserve energy and body mass in the 70's for example

I would say 82-87F is no where near warm enough for proper thermoregulation and digestion for a hot spot.

Maybe it is because you are in Florida and your problem is you have the opposite problems of snake temps. You need strong air conditioned rooms to keep snake rooms cold otherwise the hot spot heats up the entire enlcoser.. You actually have the opposite problem where you need a cooler cold side. Maybe that explains your very cold hotspot suggestion.
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Well, it definitely depends on many different things depending on where you are and what ambient temps are, and the specific types of enclosures being used. In an enclosed rack, medium tubs, or with fewer air holes for ventilation I totally agree, it could definitely get too hot. with a more open larger cage with a screen top for example, it wouldn't be anything close to the same situation either.

Your cooler air temps have to offset the heat on the warmer side like you said or the entire tub will get too warm because of the small area, so it works well where you are at and what they are kept in. And it really doesn't matter how cool it gets, as long as they can seek enough heat on the one end. I'm sure we both agree on that too.

The temps I gave will still work fine, and so will a 10 foot long tub that is 150F on one far end and 30F on the other. The snake will simply not go to either far end is all.

We both know that it can be done any number of different ways, as long as they get the proper warmth and can also get away from it too,...however it gets done in whatever the circumstances happen to be where they are kept and what they are kept in.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Still for more practical purposes and 80% of the country living in cold climates with cooler snake rooms. i ould still say a hot spot of 100F is neccessary. Su they can get away with a 70F colol side with a very small tub or even a shebox in a colder room.

IMO the ideal for a snakeroom in Florida is to have a couple air conditioning units installed to make or to keep the room temp at 60F (actually the cooler the better)and then you can provide a proper heat gradient and more importantly a hotter hotspot to aid proper digestion and elimination. ZThe high that you reccommened is to me far from optimal and could even cause regurges with some spieces of snakes.
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There is a bit more to it. Like Bluerosy, I recomend 100F hotspot. This problem is also linked to hydration.

Normally in the winter, the air in houses is very dry. And causes dehydation issues.

Its nice to see Dm mention cage size as a limiting factor. Yes, the smaller the cage, the more difficult it is to include a suitable range of temps.

what is so often missed in these conversations is, snakes in nature have a design, that design is to behaviorally use the enviornment to control their temps. In all the field work I have done, its extremely rare to find a reptile thats body temps are a match to where its sitting. They always pick areas with temps, above their actual needs or below.(when regulating temps) Individuals do not behaviorally pick 84F to obtain a body temp of 84F.

Even on the cool end, like overwintering, they rarely have the exact same temp, but its very close.

Lastly, they do not utilize one temp, such as 84F when warm or 55F when cool. They without question use a range of temps to maximise their ability to perform different functions. Of course, they do not live in small boxes in nature. Some boxes is without question, unnatural to their behaivor and their biology.

In small boxes, the snakes are confined to the bare minimum. because of space limitations. I just wish folks could once in a while talk about more then the bare minimun.

Of course in small boxes, all you can do is the bare minimum, I do question what the bare minimum has to do with the snakes.

The bare minimum has everything to do with the keepers. Just think, if you kept them at the temps they want, they would feed daily and crap daily. What a mess. Cheers

Thanks for your reply, and info. It'll be 2 weeks next Wednesday, so I guess I'll try feeding him a smaller mouse then. Now that I've put and undertank heater on his tank, the warm hide is now between 94F - 100F, and the cooler hide is in the 70's. He's in a forty gallon breeder tank - I like to give them room. Does that sound fine? He spends most of his time in the cool hide.
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1.0.0 277 Graybanded Kingsnake, Boris Karloff
1.0.0 Crockett Graybanded Kingsnake, Julien Sands
1.0.0 Ball Python, Frank Langella
1.0.0 Pastel Ball Python, Claude Raines
1.0.0 Boa, Benedict Cumberboa (or Big Ben)
1.0.0 Sweet Rosy Bourke Parakeet, Didgeridoo
1.0.0 Ringneck Dove, Pimmdale Plumington
0.1.0 Smart & Loving Daughter

With it being in the 70's on the cool end, it is too hot on the

warm end. If you had much cooler ambient temps, it would work out. I would make sure it is in the high 80s or so in you situation, and monitor the temp at the belly surface of the enclosure too, not above in the air. Temps of just 70's to 100 is too warm in those confines, low-mid 70's to high 80's will work fine in that situation though.

Now if you had ambient outside cage temps was something like 60F and you had 94-100F on the very far end, it would be different. It is all very relative to any given situation. And if it was a bigger enclosure it would work too....see what I mean?. It's all extremely relative to other things going on in the immediate area and inside the cage.

Again, make SURE you accurately monitor the temps correctly at the cage floor surface. I've seen many folks overheat and kill their snakes by just assuming things.

Also, place some tight hides on either ends and read what the temps are inside. You also don't want them to have to choose proper temps over feeling secure and hidden either if you can help it.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I'll have to get the undertank heater off the bottom of the tank and get a smaller one, since this one doesn't heat under 94 (that's reading the temp on the floor level over the heatpad). Then maybe I can get it to 80s. Thanks for your help.
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1.0.0 277 Graybanded Kingsnake, Boris Karloff
1.0.0 Crockett Graybanded Kingsnake, Julien Sands
1.0.0 Ball Python, Frank Langella
1.0.0 Pastel Ball Python, Claude Raines
1.0.0 Boa, Benedict Cumberboa (or Big Ben)
1.0.0 Sweet Rosy Bourke Parakeet, Didgeridoo
1.0.0 Ringneck Dove, Pimmdale Plumington
0.1.0 Smart & Loving Daughter

You're welcome,.....but NOT 80 degrees! You need it in the very high 80's on the floor surface ONLY if it is going to be in the 70's on the far end. 80 degrees isn't warm enough on the far end. You only need a small portion of it to be warm anyway, not an entire half of the tank. All it takes is enough of the floor surface so the snake can go there and coil up to digest properly, then it will leave when its done to lower its metabolism more to conserve energy/calories.

Also, just use some heat proof spacers of some sort...ANYTHING like small stacks of thick metal washers, ceramic discs, thin blocks of whatever around the house to barely raise the cage floor off the mat just a small bit. You can adjust it very accurately that way in small increments depending on the height adjustments you make...

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Sorry, after I read your post again, just leave it exactly like it is at 94, but make sure to move the pad to the the very end so only a little bit of the tank end is over it at 94F so it can coil up and digest properly (either a bit closer or further from the max. temp.), then it can move away to the lower temps in the rest of the cage afterwards in the 70's. You don't need (or want) a large surface of the cage being 94 or more at all!, just a little bit. Like if your cage is 36", only maybe 10" or so has to be warm so the rest can stay cooler. Remember, they only need and use the heat for digestion. Otherwise snakes are hard-wired to conserve what they have in the cooler temps.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I have those "stick to the bottom of the tank" undertank heaters. The one he's in now has a hide over the undertank heater. The digital probe I put in the hide reads 94F. He's also got a hide on the other end, that end reads 74.56F. I also have a empty tank, just like the one he's in. I plugged it in overnight, and this morning The hide over the undertank heater also read 94F in that one, but the cool side hide read in at 71F. I think the difference is because the tank he's currently in is in a stack of tanks, and the heat from the tank on the shelf under his is making his cool side warmer. The empty tank is on a stand across the room all by itself. Do you think I should take him out of his present tank and put him in the other one? I haven't touched or handled him for a week and a half, not wanting to upset his stomach further. And he's actually looking interested in feeding in the last day - will moving him harm him or put him off? I REALLY want to be able to feed him as soon as I safely can, but also want to do my best to assure he will be able to retain his mouse this time. Thanks so much for you time and experience in this!
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1.0.0 277 Graybanded Kingsnake, Boris Karloff
1.0.0 Crockett Graybanded Kingsnake, Julien Sands
1.0.0 Ball Python, Frank Langella
1.0.0 Pastel Ball Python, Claude Raines
1.0.0 Boa, Benedict Cumberboa (or Big Ben)
1.0.0 Sweet Rosy Bourke Parakeet, Didgeridoo
1.0.0 Ringneck Dove, Pimmdale Plumington
0.1.0 Smart & Loving Daughter

71 degrees on the cool end is better yet, but the contained hide on the opposite end of 94 or more is too warm and it won't likely stay there at that temp. But often they will situate only their belly over a portion of the warmth to digest with the rest of their body situated in the cooler area. If you place a much longer hide so the temp gradient is broader inside it, then it will seek whatever variable within the long hide to properly digest as it wants, then go where it likes afterwards. Like I mentioned before, you don't want it to have to choose security over temps, or vise-versa. Multiple hides in defferent areas are a very good idea so it can choose security in any temp, as well as warmth to digest properly while also hiding. There are many different ways to achieve this, but you have to make it happen one way or another so it doesn't regurge the next meal.

Make sure it is utilizing the warmth gradient after it feeds on a smaller meal and all should be fine. I wouldn't move the snake to another enclosure if you want it to feed either. Just tweek what you have it in so that it actually utilizes the warmth. As I said before, you can move the pad to only a smaller portion underneath, or put in a much longer hide to achieve the very same outcome.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Well if he is that warm he is just burning calories. What he is trying to do now is conserve calories as much as possible by staying on the cooler end.

To bad you don't have any liquid flagyll to settle his stomach. Sounds like he is starving and needs to eat eat eat!
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He ate last Wednesday night (small mouse) and kept it down! YAY! I'm going to see if he'll eat another tomorrow night. Thanks for all the help.
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1.0.0 277 Graybanded Kingsnake, Boris Karloff
1.0.0 Crockett Graybanded Kingsnake, Julien Sands
1.0.0 Ball Python, Frank Langella
1.0.0 Pastel Ball Python, Claude Raines
1.0.0 Boa, Benedict Cumberboa (or Big Ben)
1.0.0 Sweet Rosy Bourke Parakeet, Didgeridoo
1.0.0 Ringneck Dove, Pimmdale Plumington
0.1.0 Smart & Loving Daughter