Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Over the years I've had many do this. Young ones, old ones...
Well fed...
Not fed heavily....
Hands washed....
No quick hand movements to entice...

Others working with Kings have never had it happen.

Maybe some of my well fed Kings just have higher aspirations?
Eat a person and your good for the year?

It's like a switch gets turned on and a normally placid animal just starts to chew.

What are your thoughts? Anybody figure it out? Best guess?

because they're getula. haha.
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i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

That's really not uncommon with young snakes in general. He should calm down before long. Some of my ratsnake hatchlings were doing the same.

Them trying to communicate with the keeper in some way we don't understand?
Not suggesting the simple "feed me more". I've done EXACTLY that to try to satiate them and found it didn't work for me....

Some form of "cage crazy" ? I've had kings kept in cages and tubs do it. In quiet low stress rooms and in high traffic areas....

Just wondering if anyone has figured it out.

I personally have never had a Pyro, Black Milk or Speckled do it. Just a random experience or something more common in the Common Kings? Why?

Makes working with these guys more fun at times.

ANY excuse to post a Pit!

they dont like you bob
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I've always thought it was because they are "wired" to eat anything and everything they can get down their throats. I've personally seen kings eat rodents, eggs, lizards, birds, snakes, fish, and even a cricket.

Maybe they just assume everything in their world is potential food...
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1.1 Argentine Boas
1.1 Dumerils Boas
1.1 Black Milk Snakes
2.3 California King Snakes
1.1 Nelsons Milk Snakes
2.2 Corn Snakes

"Maybe they just assume everything in their world is potential food..."

Lol , that's the conclusion I've come to at times too!

I used to love the Far Side cartoons and he had a pic of two spiders building a web at the base of a kids sliding board and one spider said to the other " If we pull this off well be set for years " Reminded me of that aggressive kingsnake attitude.

At the same time though I've had some that stayed mellow. I guess everybody's an individual.

Hi Bob, I think several things are at play.

As one said, snakes are hardwired to secure prey, then determine what it is after. Seen that many many times in nature.

Also, they learn where food comes from and WHERE it comes from.

Combine that with the grap the biggest part behavior and you have them eating your hand.

Theres more, in group cages, its the monkey see, monkey do, type of thing. They will watch another feed and then repeat it, and often repeat it poorly, hahahahahahahaha

Lastly, we tend to lose track of where are animals are. That is, they are hardwired(instint) for nature and they are not in nature now. We tend to think what they do in captivity is normal, but in most cases, there has to be insanity(not Sean T) Remember, insane is to act different then normal, its not necessarily bad. Just different. Captivity does support different behavior.

All in all, my bet its a weird learned behavior and its normally rewarded, after the snake does that, it is given a mouse(food item) which trains the animal to do it again. Reptiles are good with reward learning. They also attempt to improve on the previous event. Cheers

It's happened with snakes I feed by hand and its happened with snakes that get FT left in a cage with no really seeing me directly.

At times I have rewarded them by then giving a mouse to satiate them but there have been other times over the years they accidentally get dropped just to have them pause, take a good look that in comparison, I am Godzilla size and they still come charging after me across the floor. As if to say " I can eat you!"

I even had a friend relate to me a story of someone cleaning cages and momentarily throwing an average sized Eastern King in a large garbage can with an adult Boa who's cage was also being quickly cleaned . He figured the difference in size made it of little concern and when he got back to the Eastern King, found it had killed the Boa even though it had NO HOPE of being able to consume such a large animals.

It's a mystery to me....

Whoops! Another Pit! How does that keep happening?

That was a very stupid move on the guys part in my opinion. A snake can constrict and kill an animal MANY times larger than it can actually consume. Just like a 15 foot python could kill a large adult man or huge bull mastiff, etc.. but not be able to consume him afterwards.

I am betting he just tossed them in together and walked away for longer than a quick minute to clean too, or he would have heard the comotion going on immediately as soon as it happened.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

But I admit it is much more fun to 2nd guess other folks mistakes instead of my own! Sheesh. If you only knew about some of mine! Lol.

Actually I think I'll keep them to myself Doug.

Another Pit?! How does this keep happening?

Yeah Bob, no doubt we've all done a few things that we wish we hadn't done in the snake room before...

Nice Pits!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

N/p

Once I heard a frog screaming from under a rock, I lifted it and found a neonate watersnake attempting to eat a full grown leopard frog. I laughed. Once found a average sized yellow rat that ate a full grown rabbit. Have no idea how it swallowed it.

When I was breeding blackheaded pythons, every once in a while they would go nuts and chase me around the house, heck with the rat, I want you. Once, a 10 footer was out. I found it coiled up, with the cat sleeping in the middle. Not a problem. Cat loved it.

I have seen what you showed a bunch of times, kings are particularly good at it.

Do you think it relates to the ones that attempt to eat themselves?

ALso, snakes do learn from watching. I proved that one. Cheers

It's certainly something to try to understand.

I have never ever been able to find a " cure" for it. As time goes on I either get rid of the animal or learn to live with the limitations of working with an animal that does that. It's unsettling to think of a visitor being handed a King to handle to calm their fear of snakes and have to worry about suddenly getting chewed on.

As Frank said it does happen in other kinds too..

http://youtu.be/dnfn6rV4sL0

And is still displaying the same behavior so I would think this is outside of the theory of maybe captivity " cage crazy" ?

http://youtu.be/8Y46hfeqihk

You saw a yellow rat that had eaten a rabbit?

I'll share a story with you then, that I very rarely tell any snake folks because of how silly it sounds.

Several years ago I was herping a ranch of a family friend outside of snyder tx. I was making a few passes around an old barn lifting tin and whatnot and came upon 3 coachwhips backing and adult cotton tail rabbit into a corner where the barn met a fence. After 15-20 seconds of watching 2 of the coachwhips struck/bit the rabbit and for some reason the rabbit just sat there while the coachwhips began chewing apparently trying to eat the rabbit. I stupidly moved in closer for a better look which caused the rabbit to take off tossing the snakes. 1 coachwhip took off, but the 2 that had attacked the rabbit stood their ground. I just had my bare hands and didn't want to be bit 20 times so I let them be.

The handful of times i've told this story to snake folks at herp meetings i've got "no 6' coachwhip whould ever view an adult rabbit as prey", "there is no way 3 snakes where going afte they same prey... they arent wolves who hunt together", "the coachwhips would have tried to eat eachother rather than the rabbit", etc...

What do you think about it, Frank?
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1.1 Argentine Boas
1.1 Dumerils Boas
1.1 Black Milk Snakes
2.3 California King Snakes
1.1 Nelsons Milk Snakes
2.2 Corn Snakes

These are wild free ranging coachwhips, I taught the larger one to feed off tongs and crawl up me to feed. She in turn taught others. At one time(when she cycled) there were five of them all feeding off tongs. Not rabbits hahahahahahaha

That is a very cool story. She fed 14 days in a row, 4-6 mice, then bred laid eggs, and fed 17 days in a row, laid again, then 15 days in a row then laid again.(have pics of breeding, pre egglaying sheds, and gravid.

I was walking outside and a full grown rabbit took off, it ran by a pallet of floor tile. Out shot a snake and grabbed the rabbit by the hind leg. It jumped and jumped, twisted and screamed. I could see the snake all stretched and twisted as it hung on with the rear part of its body. The rabbit finally escaped. It was a 3 1/2 foot gophersnake. Cheers

...
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1.1 Argentine Boas
1.1 Dumerils Boas
1.1 Black Milk Snakes
2.3 California King Snakes
1.1 Nelsons Milk Snakes
2.2 Corn Snakes

"She in turn taught others"

Pretty cool........

It couldn't possibly be that a couple other coachwhips happened to be in the same vicinity for the hand-out,....could it?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Interesting.

(And I tread respectfully here, don't want to be a jerk)

It's much like when I go into an enclosure with a bunch of young animals. Everybody is a mellow camper except for that one frightened /grumpy individual. "Grump" goes berserk on your hand, rattles, musks, bites repeatedly and you go "later" for this and go away. Next time you go in that enclosure 2 others " Get all up in your hand" because they saw it worked, you retreated .

Just the opposite of what we try to do for a positive result.

You go into the same enclosure and "Grump" gets all up in your hand. You calmly pick him up even though he's gotten a few good bites into you and handle him for awhile to show him no harm comes to him and you're not out to eat him.
You put him back in the enclosure with the others and any others possibly contemplating the same behavior figure " why bother, nothing happened to Grump" and they have learned something.

I figure its similar to what Mounted Police do. Horses are very smart but are herd animals. They get a sense of security from being in a group where the monster/ predator is likely to grab another horse or their numbers intimidate a predator.
Often times the quickest way to get a police horse" bulletproof" is to put it out with an experienced animal and as the day goes on, he sees that nothing happens to the other horse and " learns" his fear just needs to get lowered to normal "caution" status and trust starts building because in a sense you are asking them to do something un-natural. Before too long the horse is able to go out to work solo.

I think that's what Frank may have been "thinking"? Maybe? Can't really speak for another person, just trying to be helpful?

Anyway. Pits are better. Nah, nah nah nah nah!

*Photo not mine. Homegrown Herps I believe

Awesome Pit!

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. But the other side of the coin is that horses are somewhat "intelligent" and actually CAN think to a certain extent, whereas a snake cannot think or reason at all. They act purely upon very simple enstilled instincts, although certain associations and tolerability from different things, situations and surrounding stimuli (good or bad) do certainly come into play in many of their individual behaviors.

In 46 years of owning and working with many different types of snakes, I have never known a snake to "teach" another snake anything.. I will say that some of the things they do (or don't do) are because they don't feel threatened at all from past associations they have had. That could be interpreted as a form of "learning" in my opinion.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I don't know how the heck four of them learned to trust me(a human) other then watch her. Which is a form of learning. As in, her movements taught them to do the same.

The female, I had to gain her trust a 1/4 inch at a time and over months. The rest, just joined in. No training required. So, they learned by watching her.

I also hand fed roadrunners the same way. Got pics. The females were the most trustful, and they would bring their young. At first the young would sit in the bushes and watch. Then all of sudden they would come up and take mice out of my hands. The young ones did not have to be worked with either. And yes, there were times

Anyway, you can call it anything you like. It absolutely is what it is. Cheers

Then Frank, whats your take on feeding live prey to any snake? Is it really that dangerous? Or if properlly supported, can it be done with out considerable risk?

:

Hi Leo,

I have no problem feeding live prey to predators. ITs what they do.

You do have to consider the health of the snake, and the danger of the prey. That is, start small and work up, If a snake has problems, then look at why it does.

To me, a high level predator that cannot kill its prey, is the problem. There has to be something the matter with it.

If there is something the matter with the predator, then prekllled is apropriate.

In the zillion years of my keeping herps. I have not seen a problem, and I do feed both prekilled and live.

Again, its a tool to determine the health and strenght of your subject, the snake.

About the rationalization of death. Hmmmmmm I can do that too. I take me out of it. NATURE/evolution/god(pick one), made these animals to kill prey, If they were in nature, they would be killing prey. I think i have a problem with folks who think taking death out of the picture by only buying frozen that other people KILLED, is a superior approach. That is a bit escapist(is that a word?) they are just putting the dirty work somewhere else. Leave the dirty work to the snakes.

Anyway, just use your judgement. Have a great day

Thank you very much for your input Frank! Regarding your approach to feeding snakes, I understand that you recommend pretty frequent feeding, so, Do you simply keep offering as much food as the snake demands every single day? This might be my stupid human logic, but I tend to fear that certain snakes are so voracious that they could continue eating until they explode. Is this notion absolutly nonsense?

I once had a baby blackneck garter chasing an adult mouse.

Wow!,.that tiny garter snake must have had a death wish, huh??

That one obviously was never "taught" anything by its mother or siblings..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah, that snake was tiny. obviously a newborn.

Hi Doug, I think its time you get out of the dark ages. hahahahahahaha.

Goggle up SOCIAL snakes, A grad student, a young lady Named Melissa, is doing great work. Observing parental care in snakes.

A whole lot of SNAKE behavior is starting to looking like they learn from eachother.

I get the feeling in the next few years, your whole concept of snakes will get turned upside down. Cheers

Hi Frank.

Ya know, You're right! I guess the little newborn Garter was taught to be a bully.

So did the mother teach him that, or was it the other newborn siblings?

Or was there some other older neighborhood kids that had a bad influence on the little newborn garter?

....hahahahahhahaha!!!!!!!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

he was just a rebel doug. a lone wolf.

A one man wolf pack.....
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Oh yeah, I forgot about those lone rebel types, Brian..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com