Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it possible to cross breed subspecies of the common king snake? if so which subspecies would work?

>>Is it possible to cross breed subspecies of the common king snake? if so which subspecies would work?

yes. all. and don't!
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i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

Why Don't? Is it harmful to them?

>>Why Don't? Is it harmful to them?

it's harmful to the hobby.

i'm sure one of the other members will be more than happy to explain why it's detrimental to the hobby in the long run.

Rainer is just messing with you, man.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>Rainer is just messing with you, man.

it can't be rainer. everything is spelled correctly in the OP ;P

That's how you can tell, it's all a act.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Yeah, if every word was misspelled as always it would be way too obvious who it was. Your and Brian's comments were crackin me the heck up man..LOL!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>it's harmful to the hobby.

i'm sure one of the other members will be more than happy to explain why it's detrimental to the hobby in the long run.<

oh my harmful & detrimental huh?
how and why??? anyone???

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

thomas, tell me what this snake is:

Getulay
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

a hybrid. most likely calkingXcorn, probably backbred to cali.

,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>thomas, tell me what this snake is:
>>
>>
>>
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

I started to respond to your invitation but remembered who it was from. I do like arguing opinions with my friends from Texas but they're all smart and have conversation skills. Rainer started it, I'll let you guys advertise.

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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

hahahaha advertise what?

,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

All your post get deleted, it wouldn't make sense.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I would understand how this would negatively effect the hobby, if i where to sell the results, without telling the buyer exactly what two subspecies they came from. Though i have no real intention of breeding two different subspecies together, i was simply just wondering if it would be possible. Though if ever i did, it would be for pure hobbyist reasons, and i would keep the snakes for my self. and i don't understand how that would effect the hobby at all. But thank you for answering my first question.

It would affect the mainstream hobby because no matter how honestly you labeled them initially, down the line as they exchanged hands, the different people would assume them as being whatever they tended to look like and were sold as at any given point. Everything the offspring and the offspring's offspring down the way would end up getting muddied and would no longer be a specific known subspecies of anything.

Are you saying that if you bred a cross you would keep all 8 to 15 snakes that were produced for the rest of their entire lives? Because that is HIGHLY, HIGHLY doubtful. All the different people that ever acquired them would be breeding them to exactly what? They would breed them to whatever they figured they "likely" were and in turn would be producing folds more and so on, and so on.............They would NEVER be matched with the exact same cross you originally started with and told people they were. They would get infused into everything else BUT the particular cross project you started with as time went on.

This is the reality of how it actually works, but too many people don't give the first thought about that or ever give it a second thought about how their breedings might affect other people's snakes later on. The waters are so incredibly muddied because of many years of this happening already.

The OBVIOUS crosses are not so detrimental initially, but the similar looking "by-product" snakes produced in many of these clutches can often look virtually identical to either pure parent involved with the cross.

Brian's photo example of the "Cal. king" is just one prime example, because it is a 3-way hybrid and actually has 25% PUEBLAN MILKSNAKE in it's genetic lineage!!

Nobody kingsnake expert on earth would ever know that was a hybrid, much less a casual hobbyist wanting to buy something to breed to their Cal. king they had at home.

Then what would those babies all be and sold as?????

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Ok yeah i completely understand what your saying now. I guess i just needed someone to explain it to me. Well i don't want to do anything to harm a hobby/business that we all love. Thanks

....and I'm glad you have some good common sense and could clearly see what would inevitably happen. There are too many irresponsible people in this hobby that don't care about anything they do, or how it adversely affects other people's stuff.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>It would affect the mainstream hobby because no matter how honestly you labeled them initially, down the line as they exchanged hands, the different people would assume them as being whatever they tended to look like and were sold as at any given point. Everything the offspring and the offspring's offspring down the way would end up getting muddied and would no longer be a specific known subspecies of anything.
>>
>>Are you saying that if you bred a cross you would keep all 8 to 15 snakes that were produced for the rest of their entire lives? Because that is HIGHLY, HIGHLY doubtful. All the different people that ever acquired them would be breeding them to exactly what? They would breed them to whatever they figured they "likely" were and in turn would be producing folds more and so on, and so on.............They would NEVER be matched with the exact same cross you originally started with and told people they were. They would get infused into everything else BUT the particular cross project you started with as time went on.
>>
>> This is the reality of how it actually works, but too many people don't give the first thought about that or ever give it a second thought about how their breedings might affect other people's snakes later on. The waters are so incredibly muddied because of many years of this happening already.
>>
>> The OBVIOUS crosses are not so detrimental initially, but the similar looking "by-product" snakes produced in many of these clutches can often look virtually identical to either pure parent involved with the cross.
>>
>>Brian's photo example of the "Cal. king" is just one prime example, because it is a 3-way hybrid and actually has 25% PUEBLAN MILKSNAKE in it's genetic lineage!!
>>
>>Nobody kingsnake expert on earth would ever know that was a hybrid, much less a casual hobbyist wanting to buy something to breed to their Cal. king they had at home.
>>
>>Then what would those babies all be and sold as?????
>>
>>
>>
>>~Doug
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>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
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>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug I'm curious to what your stance is on gun ownership?
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

I love that conversation! We should all have that one in person at Daytona or other show we ALL go to. This isn't the place for that because people like to act different online. It would just be erased!

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Clinton2016
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>I love that conversation! We should all have that one in person at Daytona or other show we ALL go to. This isn't the place for that because people like to act different online. It would just be erased!
>>
>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Clinton2016
>>-----
>>Gerard
>>
>>"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"
>>
>>www.livebaitclip.com
>>
>>
>>GONE FISHING!!!

Huh? I'm just curious to know what DMong's stance is. As it seems his main problem with hybrids is irresponsible people and thus shouldn't be done etc. You can apply this kind of thinking to everything in life and if that were the case I think it this planet it would be pretty boring.
You can't limit what other people want to do because there is irresponsible, stupid, ignorant, lazy, etc people who don't take responsibility for themselves. Be it labeling a snake correctly, being a responsible gun owner, drinking and not driving, etc, etc.
Now if DMong is for gun ownership what would he say to someone who wants to take his guns because they believe that because there are some irresponsible guns owners out there then no one should be allowed to have them? Does that sound rational to him?
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

>>>>I love that conversation! We should all have that one in person at Daytona or other show we ALL go to. This isn't the place for that because people like to act different online. It would just be erased!
>>>>
>>>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Clinton2016
>>>>-----
>>>>Gerard
>>>>
>>>>"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"
>>>>
>>>>www.livebaitclip.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>GONE FISHING!!!
>>
>>Huh? I'm just curious to know what DMong's stance is. As it seems his main problem with hybrids is irresponsible people and thus shouldn't be done etc. You can apply this kind of thinking to everything in life and if that were the case I think it this planet it would be pretty boring.
>>You can't limit what other people want to do because there is irresponsible, stupid, ignorant, lazy, etc people who don't take responsibility for themselves. Be it labeling a snake correctly, being a responsible gun owner, drinking and not driving, etc, etc.
>>Now if DMong is for gun ownership what would he say to someone who wants to take his guns because they believe that because there are some irresponsible guns owners out there then no one should be allowed to have them? Does that sound rational to him?
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>>www.mesozoicreptiles.com

You can use alcohol too as an anology. For instances does DMong think alcohol should be illegal because some (dumb) people drive drunk and kill themselves and others. WHat about the other people who do the right thing and don't drive drunk, etc. Should those people be punished because of some select morons???

What Im trying to say is, does DMong wish he lived in the 1940's in Germany? Most likely were only wild hybrids back then. He could be in heaven.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

What's the tag line one member uses... Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms should be a convenience store not a government agency.

Seriously boys and girls...is it really necessary to get drawn into this argument time and time again?

No matter how many times I read Doug's comments do I see a way to equate those comments with who should or should not be allowed to own guns or how one particular individuals stance on the subject of gun ownership has any bearing on hybrids... the logic involved can only be attributed to a Jeff Schofield.

wow clayton. enacting godwin's law in only your second reply. trying for a record?

and i don't think alcohol or guns are analogous to this discussion.

i, for one, love the look of redback imperial pueblans. there's something awesome about how the introduction of the californiae newport morph into campbelli allows for that red stripe to be produced.

however, some of those "imperial pueblans" look like standard milksnake fare. here's an example from your website:

now, no one is questioning your ethics. you clearly label the genetic heritage on everything you sell.

but hybrids, to many, are a novelty. having something interesting or unique is exciting, at first. then, after the novelty wears off where does the owner dispose of said snake? craigslist? their local pet store (and who knows what the shop owner will sell it as).

the snake can then change hands several times over the course of its 20 year lifespan.

this is where things become messy.

personally if i was to breed hybrids, like imperials, i'd cull all offspring that didn't have the desired phenotype.

but then again, i breed sinaloans with known nelson's blood. so, maybe i'm a horrible person.

>>wow clayton. enacting godwin's law in only your second reply. trying for a record?
>>
>>and i don't think alcohol or guns are analogous to this discussion.
>>
>>i, for one, love the look of redback imperial pueblans. there's something awesome about how the introduction of the californiae newport morph into campbelli allows for that red stripe to be produced.
>>
>>
>>
>>however, some of those "imperial pueblans" look like standard milksnake fare. here's an example from your website:
>>
>>
>>
>>now, no one is questioning your ethics. you clearly label the genetic heritage on everything you sell.
>>
>>but hybrids, to many, are a novelty. having something interesting or unique is exciting, at first. then, after the novelty wears off where does the owner dispose of said snake? craigslist? their local pet store (and who knows what the shop owner will sell it as).
>>
>>the snake can then change hands several times over the course of its 20 year lifespan.
>>
>>this is where things become messy.
>>
>>personally if i was to breed hybrids, like imperials, i'd cull all offspring that didn't have the desired phenotype.
>>
>>but then again, i breed sinaloans with known nelson's blood. so, maybe i'm a horrible person.
>>

I don't think that imperial looks like anything standard. Pure pueblans don't look like that.
As for novelty the same thing could be said for a pure snake. You ever done a show? More than half the people buying s snake don't know what kind it is or how to care for it and they still buy it.

And for your Nelson/Sinaloans don't they intergrade anyways?
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

That Imperial throws awesome babies btw. I don't know if you can tell from the pic but the red banding doesn't go all the way around her it stops on the sides.

Here are some babies she's thrown out...

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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

the top one is awesome, but my question is: do you breed her back to a striped male or another normalish male?

>>the top one is awesome, but my question is: do you breed her back to a striped male or another normalish male?

A striped male.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

>>I don't think that imperial looks like anything standard. Pure pueblans don't look like that.
>>As for novelty the same thing could be said for a pure snake. You ever done a show? More than half the people buying s snake don't know what kind it is or how to care for it and they still buy it.
>>
>>And for your Nelson/Sinaloans don't they intergrade anyways?

agreed. it's not a typical pueblan, for sure. however, i have seen similar patterns of line bred oreo/halloweens. can't seem to find an exact match, of course, but there's a couple similarish ones on this site that'll give you an idea where i'm going with that: milksnakes.org/encyclopedia/campbelli.htm

and yes, sinaloans and nelsons do intergrade natually. as do nelsons and jaliscos and nelsons and conants and arguably so do nelsons/jaliscos with pueblans and ruthvens.

however, my line comes from sinaloae field collected in northern and central sinaloa in the 70's and early 80's by the original owners of the EBV - they were found to have the recessive "vanishing pattern" mutation and in the late 90's the albino gene was introduced from a moody line amel. because honestly, who doesn't want to see a sold red albino?

so, i'd compare it more to taking a newport morph cal king and mixing it with a high white desert phase cal to create a high white specimen. two snakes that are obviously closely related, but would never naturally meet.
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i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

>>>>I don't think that imperial looks like anything standard. Pure pueblans don't look like that.
>>>>As for novelty the same thing could be said for a pure snake. You ever done a show? More than half the people buying s snake don't know what kind it is or how to care for it and they still buy it.
>>>>
>>>>And for your Nelson/Sinaloans don't they intergrade anyways?
>>
>>agreed. it's not a typical pueblan, for sure. however, i have seen similar patterns of line bred oreo/halloweens. can't seem to find an exact match, of course, but there's a couple similarish ones on this site that'll give you an idea where i'm going with that: milksnakes.org/encyclopedia/campbelli.htm
>>
>>and yes, sinaloans and nelsons do intergrade natually. as do nelsons and jaliscos and nelsons and conants and arguably so do nelsons/jaliscos with pueblans and ruthvens.
>>
>>however, my line comes from sinaloae field collected in northern and central sinaloa in the 70's and early 80's by the original owners of the EBV - they were found to have the recessive "vanishing pattern" mutation and in the late 90's the albino gene was introduced from a moody line amel. because honestly, who doesn't want to see a sold red albino?
>>
>>so, i'd compare it more to taking a newport morph cal king and mixing it with a high white desert phase cal to create a high white specimen. two snakes that are obviously closely related, but would never naturally meet.
>>-----
>>i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.
>>
>>everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

Cool I've seen Ron's Sinaloans. They are very nice. You know he made some imperials himself.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

and i don't think alcohol or guns are analogous to this discussion.

Quite the contrary.

>>and i don't think alcohol or guns are analogous to this discussion.
>>
>>Quite the contrary.

so should we be petitioning for an addendum to the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms?

the ATFS (alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and snakes)
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i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

They are obviously both very confused with comparing guns to hybrids, Brian. If people mass produced bogus counterfeit guns my stance would be the same way it is with counterfeit snakes. See, as long as a Smith & Wesson or Colt 45 wasn't made with other Satuday Night Special parts so people "thought" that's what they were getting, there would be no problem there either and everyone could have genuine types of guns, just like it should be.

This is what people do when there is nothing to rationalize their arguments with.....grasp at straws and use anything insignificant comparison they can.

So to recap for those others here that can't grasp what they are comparing their bizarre arguments with....it AIN'T LIKE GUNS OR GOVERNMENT!......it's about muddying up the casual hobbyists collections and breeding projects. It's about thinking about what happens to all the stuff people are producing and get bred with. It's just as simple as that.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

" it's about muddying up the casual hobbyists collections and breeding projects. It's about thinking about what happens to all the stuff people are producing and get bred with. It's just as simple as that. "

That is a great point Doug, and I could not have said it better myself.

Pollution and perversion are in our hobby, with crosses and hybrids, simply because people do not care about:

1) The bloodlines that those who brought our fine snakes into our hobby with, from the wild, so we can simply enjoy having them.

2) The animals themselves.

3) Other herpers, whose breeding projects that they spent hard earned money on, that gets polluted because of someone elses inability to overthrow their own selfish desires.

Reminds me once when I was leaving an apt. complex years ago. Some little kid was riding around on his bike, eating a bag of cheese puffs. He came to a stop in the middle of the parking lot, finished off the last of the tasty cheese dust that had accumulated inside the bottom of the bag, and simply tossed the empty cheese puff bag into the air, where it landed in the parking lot, and he simply just rode away, without a care, leaving his pollution ( his litter ) to be dealt with by someone else.

Seeing the pics of hybrids all throughout the years reminded me of that instance.

Someone has a good time doing something, and then, leaves the pollution for someone else to deal with.

And those people, are, IMO, not real herpers. Not caring about the animals, the bloodlines, or most importantly, your fellow herpers, makes me wonder why anyone would even be in this hobby to begin with?

Then again, they are in the hobby, but not truly a productive part.

That is where trusting those who are noble and of good character, and who can be trusted, to provide our hobby with spectacular and pure specimens, which is exactly how our hobby started to begin with. For someone to actually advocate doing a complete u-turn spits in the face of our herp fathers.
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Genesis 1:1

"Reminds me once when I was leaving an apt. complex years ago. Some little kid was riding around on his bike, eating a bag of cheese puffs. He came to a stop in the middle of the parking lot, finished off the last of the tasty cheese dust that had accumulated inside the bottom of the bag, and simply tossed the empty cheese puff bag into the air, where it landed in the parking lot, and he simply just rode away, without a care, leaving his pollution ( his litter ) to be dealt with by someone else.

Someone has a good time doing something, and then, leaves the pollution for someone else to deal with"

Yep, this hobby/business is like that!...EXACTLY!...what a perfect comparison if there ever was one. That's always what happens. Once a few types are muddied up real good, they'll move on to do the same thing to countless more....and never give two hoots about what those snakes they sold are EVER bred with either.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"Yep, this hobby/business is like that!...EXACTLY!...what a perfect comparison if there ever was one. That's always what happens. Once a few types are muddied up real good, they'll move on to do the same thing to countless more....and never give two hoots about what those snakes they sold are EVER bred with either. "

Never giving a hoot just shows how selfish some are.

But, it all is about supporting those in the hobby that do care. The more support they get vs. the less support for those who pollute, would mean a healthier and wider array of pure specimens to choose from, when it comes to looking for what you want.

Remember that old commercial about pollution from the 70s, I think? Woodsey, the owl, saying, " give a hoot, don't pollute!"

How true that statement is, my friend!
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Genesis 1:1

Yeah, the only positive thing that can EVER come out of that practice is that genuine snakes are becoming more sought after, which is good. But at the expense of everything else unfortunately.

......"Woodsy Owl"..LMAO!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>And those people, are, IMO, not real herpers. Not caring about the animals, the bloodlines, or most importantly, your fellow herpers, makes me wonder why anyone would even be in this hobby to begin with?

That's pretty close to my point of view. I just don't understand how someone could spend weeks or months--years of effort, sometimes--in order to discover a king or pit crossing a hiking trail, or find a pyro or zonata partly exposed in a rock crack on a mountainside, or turn a rock to discover a beautiful red milk--and have their first thought be, "wow, I could take that home and breed it to (something else)". I just feel bad for anyone who could see no more value in the animals.
>>
>>...to provide our hobby with spectacular and pure specimens, which is exactly how our hobby started to begin with. For someone to actually advocate doing a complete u-turn spits in the face of our herp fathers.

Very nicely said.

>>Genesis 1:1

Terry,

Your post was spot on!!

" I just feel bad for anyone who could see no more value in the animals ".

I feel bad too, because of what they are missing, mentally, with the value aspect you are describing, but more annoyed as well, due to their selfishness, and then, wrapped up with humor, when their justification holds no water.

Then again, we are not talking about those who love the animals, but what they can do with them.

Good thoughts!
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Genesis 1:1

hey billy you do know terry "sold" his amel chainkings dont you? how is that any differant than me selling my hybrids?

,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>hey billy you do know terry "sold" his amel chainkings dont you? how is that any differant than me selling my hybrids?

Thomas, I'm not sure you understand that the amel kings were, at worst, subspecies crosses between Lampropeltis getula getula and Lampropeltis getula nigra, which have a considerable intergrade range. And that that's a little different than breeding a Kingsnake to a rat snake or milksnake?

But more directly to the point you make: I am opposed to intentionally creating intergrades and I am willing to stand in eternal damnation for having made the mistake of breeding them and selling the adults when I realized in good conscience I shouldn't do that any more. . I considered my actions – especially in light of new points of view that people shared on these forums – and decided my earlier approach was wrong.

If I were to argue that every mistake I made in the past should be perpetuated by everyone else, the world would be a sorrier place. I suspect you could find it in yourself to concede the same point. We make mistakes, we learn from them, we get new information and over time begin to see things in a different way. As I said before we're not seeking legislation here, we're seeking to change attitudes through education.

>If I were to argue that every mistake I made in the past should be perpetuated by everyone else, the world would be a sorrier place. I suspect you could find it in yourself to concede the same point. We make mistakes, we learn from them, we get new information and over time begin to see things in a different way. As I said before we're not seeking legislation here, we're seeking to change attitudes through education.<

yes i concede your point.
but see ive formulated my opinion on snakes over 35yrs of keeping snakes and over that time ive seen alot of things differantly.
i produce hybrids and will always produce hybrids i produce locality stuff and will always produce locality stuff i breed what i want to and when i sell it i am 100% honest with what it is always have been always will be.
the arguement that somewhere down the road that its gonna change hands and pollute pure ssp. is simply ludacris responsibility lies in the breeders hands and research should ALWAYS be done on potential breeding stock. real simple, perhaps TOO SIMPLE for some or they are just lazy and when things dont go their way they wanna whine and cry and blame someone else.
see me and many others have had their names dragged thru the mudd simply because we have and do openly produce hybrids/crosses/intergrades/etc, that we are liars or are inferior somehow to people with the puritan viewpoint.
it really goes to far.
i understand passion. i am very VERY passionate about snakes always have been always will be ask anyone who knows me.
but in the end we are no differant. we breed/keep snakes in boxes. youve sold hybrids i sell hybrids there is no better or worse only differant views.

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>but in the end we are no differant...youve sold hybrids i sell hybrids there is no better or worse only differant views.

Get your accusation right. It should read:

"you've sold intergrades and stopped doing so ten years ago (and) I sell hybrids. There is no better or worse only different views"

With that clarification readers can decide for themselves.

Yes! The funny thing is, look how the thread really started and ended. Someone asked a question, heard different points, then decided it wasn't a good idea. That's the point!
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

yeah but they could have been intergrades of calikingXeastern you dont know and thats the real point, not knowing. i consider that worse than misrepresentation, talk about polluting and being irresponsible! thank god you learned and wouldnt do that now, but i wonder how many do just that, perhaps learned from you???
selling and NOT KNOWING at least i KNOW what i sell always have always will.
if your gonna breed research lineage dont whine about hybrids.
they arent going anywhere.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>yeah but they could have been intergrades of calikingXeastern

I don't know what you mean. All opinions shared then were limited to nigra and getula. The origin animal was supposedly captured by a collector somewhere in the Southeast, the question was where, and thus in the range of which ssp.

>> you dont know and thats the real point, not knowing. i consider that worse than misrepresentation,

I don't understand what you mean. Not knowing, and disclosing you don't know for sure, is worse than misrepresentation? How? Why? I disclosed all known information on them, after doing a lot of work to gather that information. I had a dog in the fight: My interests would have been better served if they could have been shown to be pure getula getula. I gathered and published information that showed that might not be the case.

>>> talk about polluting and being irresponsible!

I don't understand what you mean.

>> thank god you learned and wouldnt do that now, but i wonder how many do just that, perhaps learned from you???

Well, i guess that's possible, if they "learned" something from me ten years ago and have lived in a vacuum since then, haven't read any of the articles i've written or my many forum posts, or heard me when I've spoken at state herpetological society meetings. I think some of the people who produce & sell hybrids realize some of the shortcomings of that activity but do it anyway either because they enjoy the creativity of it so much, or don't want to give up the income.

>>selling and NOT KNOWING at least i KNOW what i sell always have always will.

I'd argue that except for animals you personally collected, you don't know exactly what you're selling.

>>if your gonna breed research lineage dont whine about hybrids.

I don't know what you mean.

I think he meant it to have a couple commas.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

And I don't think Terry is alone either. Nobody ever knows what Davis means. His comments make as much sense as an endless rat maze.

Davis said: "you dont know and thats the real point, not knowing. i consider that worse than misrepresentation"

Huh?????, ....not KNOWING something with 100% certainty is worse than purposely LYING TO EVERYONE about what you are selling????

I guess considering the source, that makes as much sense as all the other comments he ever makes. At least he is very consistent..
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>Terry wrote>>> I'd argue that except for animals you personally collected, you don't know exactly what you're selling.

thats very true... its rather convienant that you dont know what i mean on the "other stuff" but thats cool.
no better no worse no right no wrong.

,,,,,,,,
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I probably dislike hybrids as much as you. I have gone to great lengths to obtain pure snakes but I really think you are going too far. We all have different tastes and none of us has the right to set rules and standards for the rest of the hobby. I am all for edjucating people on the subjective differences between pure snakes and hybrids but trying to control what people can or cannot own/breed as a pets is no better than what PETA does.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

N/P
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

" I probably dislike hybrids as much as you. I have gone to great lengths to obtain pure snakes but I really think you are going too far. We all have different tastes and none of us has the right to set rules and standards for the rest of the hobby. I am all for edjucating people on the subjective differences between pure snakes and hybrids but trying to control what people can or cannot own/breed as a pets is no better than what PETA does. "

I am not setting any rules or standards for the hobby. How would I even go about doing that? HAHA! I can't do such a thing! HAHA!!

I am just stating my opinion. How is my opinion " controlling " what others do? It isn't. Just my opinion.

It is an opinion that is formulated over caring about the end results of actions that are not responsible vs. ones that are.

If more and more hybrids were bred, than pure specimens may possibly be lost, and be a thing of the past. HOW WOULD THAT BE GOOD?

If more people stopped breeding hybrids, and focused on breeding pure snakes, then the hobby would be able to keep going with bloodlines of species of actual snake species. HOW WOULD THAT BE BAD?

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE OUR HOBBY TO BEGIN WITH!!

Doing just the opposite spits in the face of those who worked so hard out in the field, collecting specimens for us to enjoy.

No one here on this forum has prevented evidence, besides their emotional reasoning, to support any good reasons for hybrids.

That is why this is biological perversion. The abuse of our freedom, upon animals with mixing up species.

And yes, my opinion states that those who waste precious breathing time on earth creating snakes that pervert bloodlines are not part of the hobby, but part of what destroys. It is pure laziness, arrogance, and selfishness.

So, just my opinion. I would rather care about the end result of things I do in this world, vs. what simply feels good or looks good. It is called being responsible.

-----
Genesis 1:1

i notice you really like to use that term " biological perversion" what are you trying to say billy? please explain the term in your context. as in HOW is it biologically perverse to breed hybrids? one could say breeding snakes in captivity is biologically perverse hybrids or otherwise, so like most things you post it makes no sense. see if "it" was/is a perversion of nature "it" could not happen, nature wouldnt allow it.
are you really THAT narrowminded?
are MULES biological perversions billy?
are beef cattle biological perversions billy?
what of house cats and dogs are they biological perversions billy?
was the guy BING that perfected the wonderful BING CHERRY a biological pervert? what about mendel? or darwin? howsabout your huckleberry dmuong is he a biological pervert for breeding "hondos"???
you really need to understand that there is no one person better or worse because they breed hybrids or true locale types. personally i keep and breed both hybrids and locales see one can do both.
hybrids are not going anywhere fact is more and more are created every year and your constant whining will do nothing.
also attacking folks who hybridize is GONNA catch up to you oneday. being against it is one thing constantly slandering someone who doesnt care what you think is quite another.
freedom try to grasp its meaning.

,,,,,,,,,
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Why do you feel the need to defend something, you claim, cant be stoped

Its not about taking away anything from you. Its about making peole think about something. No one expects you to think, like you always prove in your posts. the person that started this thread, asked a question,heard different sides and made up their mind. Thats the point, stop freaking out, no one wants your freedoms. Obama isnt comming for your guns either, breath!
-----
Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

If I hurt your feelings.
-----
Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

"Should those people be punished because of some select morons???"

Exactly......the same thing happens because of all the crossed garbage that the "select morons" put out there.

Snakes have absolutely NOTHING to do with guns. But those are the only sort of things you and others can try to rationalize and justify with.

You are saying that you producing the crap by-product stuff that looks strikingly similar to genuine subspecies that people constantly acquire and breed is not YOUR responsibility at all, it's the buyers/breeders down the way......right?

So with your irresponsible justifying mindset, lets talk meth manufacturers then? So the meth manufacturer is free of all responsibility for what their product causes down the road and they should be allowed to make it,..right?

HAHAHA!!!!......geeez, c'mon dude!
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>"Should those people be punished because of some select morons???"
>>
>>Exactly......the same thing happens because of all the crossed garbage that the "select morons" put out there.
>>
>>Snakes have absolutely NOTHING to do with guns. But those are the only sort of things you and others can try to rationalize and justify with.
>>
>>You are saying that you producing the crap by-product stuff that looks strikingly similar to genuine subspecies that people constantly acquire and breed is not YOUR responsibility at all, it's the buyers/breeders down the way......right?
>>
>>So with your irresponsible justifying mindset, lets talk meth manufacturers then? So the meth manufacturer is free of all responsibility for what their product causes down the road and they should be allowed to make it,..right?
>>
>>HAHAHA!!!!......geeez, c'mon dude!
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

If you're the one that wants to do meth that falls on you. Its like people that smoke cigarettes. It causes cancer and unless you're a moron everyone knows this. So if you smoke them get cancer is it the manufactures fault?
If you hang a rope around your neck and kill yourself, is it the ropes fault? Take some ownership and responsibility to what you do. Stop trying to pass the blame to others. If you're so worried about the gene pool in snakes, do your research and buy your snakes from breeders you believe are reputable.
-----
www.mesozoicreptiles.com

Grweat points!......that's exactly why producing hybrids aren't like a rope company or cigarette company. They aren't the same just like I already pointed out to you before..LOL!

Dude, I am not worried about my stuff in the least. I know who has all the real stuff in the country and elswhere too. I'm concerned about the hobby's entire future so people can have the types of snakes they assume they are getting and breeding. Because you obviously aren't.

Stop passing it off to everyone else that isn't even knowingly involved with hybrids and assume some responsibility of your own dude. It's one thing to be off in the bleachers and not argue about it, but you even go as far as to tell me you have NO responsibility with how they get all scattered around everywhere for crissakes.

So waht about my question to you about the amel Pueblan x nelsoni????? How are you going to tip-toe around that I wonder?
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Is the idiot that doesn't think his smoking is affecting others around him. How many people have been affected by second hand smoke? Why can't you smoke in movie theaters, planes, restaurants? It was affecting people and they didn't even know it. Is it their fault for not knowing or the people that were smoking, legal or not?
I don't have a problem with you producing hybrids, some look really cool. To me, it seems like the cool part of making hybrids is the art of making them itself. Selling them seem like its only about the money, making what ever you can just to sell, even though it affects what many other people like. It doesn't go the other way, it only goes right. It's easier to just pawn off what you don't need to make it easier on you, no matter what, right?

-----
Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Hybrids don't make your teeth fall out.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

LOL!,..well, I have to disagree. This forum member is proof..

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>You can use alcohol too as an anology. For instances does DMong think alcohol should be illegal because some (dumb) people drive drunk and kill themselves and others. WHat about the other people who do the right thing and don't drive drunk, etc. Should those people be punished because of some select morons???
>>
>>What Im trying to say is, does DMong wish he lived in the 1940's in Germany?

I haven't seen Doug argue hybrids or subspecies crosses should be against the law. I and others have suggested here it's harmful to herpetoculture and disrespectful to the animals.

The hope is that discussion can change the culture, that ever-increasing numbers of breeders might recognize that harm can be done, and avoid it, just as cultural changes now encourage having a designated driver and liquor ads encourage responsible drinking. Education, not legislation. (In your question above, substitute "those who serve alcohol to drivers" for "don't drive drunk" and I think the analogy is clarified. One's self-contained; the other greatly affects others.

I guess if someone's a serious drinker, who prizes certain wines or has a favorite beer, they'd hate to see them being mixed, so people down the line would never be able to be sure they were drinking the "real" Chateau Lafite or PBR...though they might think they were. I'm not sure disclosure would make it any better: Can you imagine a person who studies and enjoys drinking saying, "hey, try this, I mixed these two wines and two shots of Miller Lite! I've made something new! It's really different and cool."

Can't believe you related this to '40s Germany!

>> Most likely were only wild hybrids back then.

But that's pretty clever.

.......very well put, Terry.

cheers, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>I guess if someone's a serious drinker, who prizes certain wines or has a favorite beer, they'd hate to see them being mixed, so people down the line would never be able to be sure they were drinking the "real" Chateau Lafite or PBR...though they might think they were. I'm not sure disclosure would make it any better<

and yet you sold your amel chainkings, CLASSIC

SPEAKS VOLUMES!

,,,,,,,
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Attacking the person, not denying his logic?

-----
Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>Attacking the person, not denying his logic?

i think he's trying to say, rather ineloquently, that we're all hypocrites on some level.

either that, or he's being an ass.
-----
westmextricolors.wix.com/west1

i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

Sometimes you need to do something to form a opinion or understand why something is wrong/important. I don't know anything about Davis's comment but anyone that has done something can change..

If its broke, why fix it?

Davis's response: what's broke i do all sorts of things.....blah......i don't understand your points so i will just attack something that has nothing to do with........hybrids/getulas and not addd anything to think about only laugh at.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's actually hard to write like that, lol.
-----
Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

just pointing out the hypocracy.
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Yet have nothing to say about what he said? Weird......volumes!
-----
Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>>I guess if someone's a serious drinker, who prizes certain wines or has a favorite beer, they'd hate to see them being mixed, so people down the line would never be able to be sure they were drinking the "real" Chateau Lafite or PBR...though they might think they were. I'm not sure disclosure would make it any better<
>>
>>and yet you sold your amel chainkings, CLASSIC
>>
>>SPEAKS VOLUMES!
>>
>>,,,,,,,
>>-----
>>Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
>>
>>my website www.barmollysplace.com

Are you saying he sold hybrids and tried to pass them off as pure snakes? If so the guys gotta be a troll right? That's not even hypocrisy. That's fraud.
-----
www.mesozoicreptiles.com

That's the don't try a fix something broken attitude that prevents you from understanding someone else's perspective and the affects ones actions have on others.
-----
Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Are you saying he sold hybrids and tried to pass them off as pure snakes? If so the guys gotta be a troll right? That's not even hypocrisy. That's fraud.
-----

well i believe he told the people he sold them to their nefarious background to but still he SOLD them back into his beloved "hobby" that he feals is being destroyed by hybrids, it truly speaks volumes!
terry and many others like him like to come on here and bash people doing hybrids because they dont like them, they like to spew fecal matter like we are inferior and cannot be trusted or that we are selfish and do not care?!?!?.
yet terry selling his "amel chainkings" is no differant than you selling your hybrids or me selling mine.
truly sad.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>well i believe he told the people he sold them to their nefarious background

Thomas is right (Thanks for defending me, Thomas--it's amazing how quick people are to jump to a conclusion of "fraud" when no one had even suggested that!). In fact, my career has been as a journalist/editor and I probably did more research about the amel kingsnakes' murky background and more importantly, published more of that information, than anyone else. I hope that sinks in on the poster you were replying to.

>>but still he SOLD them back into his beloved "hobby" that he feals is being destroyed by hybrids, it truly speaks volumes!

It was a process. Early in my snakekeeping days i owned a jungle corn, and considered crossing striped corns and striped amel cal kings to see if i could produce a red-striped white snake. I increasingly saw the intrinsic values of each of those species and abandoned that fool's mission. But my opinions changed gradually. As i read more about the merits of locality specific animals, and saw more of them in the wild, and was exposed to arguments about the potential problems hybrids could cause, my opinions evolved. I decided to stop breeding the amel "chain" kings. But yes, I still sold the adults--ten years ago. Today I'd either put them down or give them to friends who swore to keep them as isolated pets. Am I allowed to become smarter each decade? I hope so!

>>terry and many others like him like to come on here and bash people doing hybrids because they dont like them, they like to spew fecal matter like we are inferior and cannot be trusted or that we are selfish and do not care?!?!?.

I don't like hybrids, I can't imagine i would like spewing fecal matter, I've never said you were inferior or can't be trusted. I admire people who are open to ideas. We disagree on these particular ideas, and yes, I do think your position comes at the expense of both the animals and the hobby.

> We disagree on these particular ideas, and yes, I do think your position comes at the expense of both the animals and the hobby.<

cant just agree to disagree can you?
my position?!?
expense of both the animals and the hobby?!?!?!?!?
please do tell, how so???

,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>expense of both the animals and the hobby?!?!?!?!?
>>please do tell, how so???

If I haven't explained it yet in a way you understand (not agree with, but just understand) then I've failed in my efforts with you. Hopefully not, with some others.

yes i suppose you have failed terry.

as the fact remains, there is not one valid reason one shouldnt produce hybrids/crosses if one wants to, it certainly doesnt make one any LESS than one who breeds locality/types.

its called F R E E D O M !

,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

If nobody were standing up and saying hybrids are different from pure snakes eventually the hobby would lose many pure forms and even hybridizers would not be able to produce many of their favorite varieties. I disagree with saying pure is better than hybrid(in a captive context) but I totally agree that the hobby needs people who work with pure forms and that the entire hobby benefits from it. If there were no pure forms ther could be no Jungle Corns, no Imperials, no Jurassics, etc. they would all be whatsit X whatsit's.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

yes i agree, and i do BOTH.

,,,,,,,
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I am glad you enjoy both but I must say I do see statemnets like "getula is getula" to be an oversimplification and counterproductive. If all people viewed it that way then all getula would be a mishmash.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

getula is getula hmmmm thats my opinion no more no less.
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

To me that's a very ambiguous statement. Ambiguous means double meaning or no clear meaning. It could mean it's ok to breed any two getula ssp. togethes as long as you just label them as "kings" with no subspecific identity given or implied. Or it could mean it's ok to breed any of the getula ssp. together and call them whatever you feel like. Or it could mean that even if you breed brooksi to brooksi you still would just call them "kings" because all ssp. are invalid.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

Nobody needs an excuse to breed hybrids; it's it's own thing with it's own set of merits. However we all need to acknowledge that there is a difference between pure and hybrid if we are going to have any chance at all of keeping a wide variety of different forms available within the hobby for the future.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

Guns are just fine, and I have owned many in the past. Those are a certain type directly from the factory and stay that way. There is no comparing guns to producing unidentifiable snakes that get multiplied by the countless folds.

If you can't see that there is no comparison in the two, no wonder you are making these absurd comparisons and justifications.

BTW,...what do you think this snake on your site resembles and would likely be bred with down the road if the hybrid lineage wasn't absolutely 100% KNOWN by a potential buyer looking for a mate for his nelsoni??.....hmmm?

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Guns are just fine, and I have owned many in the past. Those are a certain type directly from the factory and stay that way. There is no comparing guns to producing unidentifiable snakes that get multiplied by the countless folds.
>>
>>If you can't see that there is no comparison in the two, no wonder you are making these absurd comparisons and justifications.
>>
>> BTW,...what do you think this snake on your site resembles and would likely be bred with down the road if the hybrid lineage wasn't absolutely 100% KNOWN by a potential buyer looking for a mate for his nelsoni??.....hmmm?
>>
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I label everything I sell. If someone has their head up their ass and sells it as something else that's not my problem. I've seen plenty of people mislabeling pure snakes that are for sale. Same thing can happen where the person buys it, breeds it, and sells the babies as something they're not.
-----
www.mesozoicreptiles.com

....I knew that would be your only option left..LOL!!

Head in their ass indeed!.........your snake would pass any day of the week to most folks as a real amel nelsoni. That's what it WILL be bred with at some point too....because your freakin label won't be attached to the snakes back as it exchanges hands and gets bred, or their offsprings ofspring either.

Anyway, your comments proved and reinforced everything I said, so no need to continue. Your mind won't ever be changed because that is your very agenda. But others that read these posts can clearly see what's going on just like the one original poster that understood it all very well after it was explained in detail. You know it's true as well, but admitting it would be admitting you contribute to the problem, and hybridizers can never bring themselves to do that openly. But privately to themselves know it is an absolute FACT!!

ta-ta!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>....I knew that would be your only option left..LOL!!
>>
>>Head in their ass indeed!.........your snake would pass any day of the week to most folks as a real amel nelsoni. That's what it WILL be bred with at some point too....because your freakin label won't be attached to the snakes back as it exchanges hands and gets bred, or their offsprings ofspring either.
>>
>>Anyway, your comments proved and reinforced everything I said, so no need to continue. Your mind won't ever be changed because that is your very agenda. But others that read these posts can clearly see what's going on just like the one original poster that understood it all very well after it was explained in detail. You know it's true as well, but admitting it would be admitting you contribute to the problem, and hybridizers can never bring themselves to do that openly. But privately to themselves know it is an absolute FACT!!
>>
>>ta-ta!
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I have no agenda. Only I like producing hybrids and "pure" colubrids too. I fully disclose everything I sell and I'm open about it. I will say if there are people trying to pass off a hybrid as a pure snake, I do find that to be wrong and the person doing so.
Whats your thoughts on the Tessera Corn?
-----
www.mesozoicreptiles.com

I know just as much (if not more) about the tesseras than anyone else does. Do you think you know something about them that I don't? If so, please do share.
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>I know just as much (if not more) about the tesseras than anyone else does. Do you think you know something about them that I don't? If so, please do share.
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I personally think they came from Jungle corns. Just my opinion.
-----
www.mesozoicreptiles.com

That is VERY, VERY likely. The only part I don't quite understand is the absolute 50-50 ratios of pure guttatus looking corns and tesseras in any given clutch. Because if anyone breeds a stripe to stripe, or Newport to Newport it doesn't mean all the offspring will look the same at all, but many would/could.

If the coastal Newport/Long Beach Cal. king or San Diego striper gene mutated into its own entity after being bred time and time again to become a dominant mode of inheritance, then maybe that could explain it,...I just don't know for sure. The odd dark bellies on some of the tesseras sure do coincide with the solid dark bellies of many Cal. kings too.

Anyway, yeah, I have some serious inside info on some of the Tessera origin, and I have also read countless things by many others including Joe Pierce and Mitch Mulks etc regarding their theories/findings too.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

just so you know doug DOES have an agenda.
its funny to here the puritans whine about hybrids destroying the hobby yet will breed a snake(any snake) w/o KNOWN lineage. based on looks. seems pretty BACKWARDS if you really think about it and lazy.
also even breeding snakes in captivity from the same or close locales are just like hybrids as in THEY ARE MANMADE! nothing real natural there.
there is no arguement to producing hybrids...
ESPECIALLY that... well, they will get sold down the line and, and, and, AND, oh, uh, irrresponsible breeders or dealers or god forbid LIL JIMMY!!! will breed them and produce some MUTT oh no!!!
thats just silly and weak.
im all about locality as well but i dont just "pick up" snakes to throw in my locality or any other BREEDING projects nor should ANY RESPONSIBLE BREEDER/SELLER/DEALER.

the sky is falling!!!

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I cant wait for you to buy me my beer and talk to you in person. It will be a fun conversation. I mean that with no disrespect or humor. I want to actually hear your thoughts, not guess what you meant. I bet it sounds a lot "clearer"straight from the horses mouth.
Drinks are on me if Rainer comes, too.
-----
Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

awww.... its good to want things gerard.
personally i dont care to meet you gerard, muchless buy you a beer(see,im kinda particular with who i drink with) youve prooven who and what kind of person you are here.
im at most all of the texas shows and alot of the La. shows and maybe i will make it to daytona this year but i really doubt i will have any time for you, why would i?

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I will see you in Daytona, it's going to be fun. Hopefully everyone ends up in one place some day.
-----
Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

whatever
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

LOL! i have a feeling Mr. Tough guy Gerado is not so tough in person and gets owned..punked and /or runs away.

These err,,bigger than life characters seem to shrink with face to face confrontaion..*cough..Dmong.. Dmong..Cough*.. had to clear my throat.

Screename bet anyone?

I really do want to sit and talk to you guys. I think it would be easier for you to not think with your fingers. Plus, drinking would probably make it better, right?
-----
Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Shrink from what/who bluerosy?
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thomas says:
>>also even breeding snakes in captivity from the same or close locales are just like hybrids as in THEY ARE MANMADE! nothing real natural there.

Speaks for itself.

"also even breeding snakes in captivity from the same or close locales are just like hybrids as in THEY ARE MANMADE! nothing real natural there."

This has been much touted but it is not really true in a hobby context. The fact that they are manmade simply just doesn't change them very much when we are talking about a captive animal whose only job is to live in a cage and be a mascot for the wild. Colors and patterns will drift a little bit if you select against them but the animal as a whole really doesn't change all that much. It is VERY easy to select for natural colors and patterns when you start with pure wild caught snakes and you can breed them for many generations before you ever need to add new blood.

This does change when you are talking about bona fide reintroduction programs but that is not really relevant to the hobby. With reintroduction programs it can even be hard for a wild caught animal to go back after being in captivity for a time, let alone captive born offspring.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

There really is no way to prevent those kinds of mixups either. That is one of the main reasons why I am not against hybrids. Rather I think the best thing is just to teach people the concept of purity and encourage them to work with whatever interests them the most but make sure they know the difference.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

absolutely, well said and i totally agree,

,,,,,,,,,
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

What I find particularly counterproductive and insidious is the arguement that all captive snakes are equivalent to hybrids simply because they are all manmade.

The saying there is no difference between say a pure amel brooks that was created by breeding a wild caught amel brooks to another brooks vs an amel calXbrooks that was created by breeding an amel cal to a brooks and then breeding bck so they all look like amel brooks.

Saying that the former is no different from the latter since a wild amel brooks isn't the norm in the wild. This type of arguement will lead to loss of varieties within the hobby. But if you acknowledge that they are different you can do both and one will not harm the other because people will be free to choose.

That's what I mean when I say teach people the concept of purity. To teach people that there is not really such a thing as purity by placing impossibly high standards on purity, ie saying they are only pure if they come from the same family group and even then they are only pure for 1 generation. This is a rediculous viewpoint and IMHO just encourages people to give up on trying to maintain a variety of forms within the hobby.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

ok aaron ...

>>>What I find particularly counterproductive and insidious is the arguement that all captive snakes are equivalent to hybrids simply because they are all manmade.

>manmade, made in nature, i guess its oversimplified. there is no arguement and im sorry you feel my opinion is counterproductive and insidious. but the fact is there are no ground rules and breeding a getula from n.fla. to one from Va. is as much a hybrid as breeding it to one from Ca.

>>>The saying there is no difference between say a pure amel brooks that was created by breeding a wild caught amel brooks to another brooks vs an amel calXbrooks that was created by breeding an amel cal to a brooks and then breeding bck so they all look like amel brooks.
Saying that the former is no different from the latter since a wild amel brooks isn't the norm in the wild. This type of arguement will lead to loss of varieties within the hobby. But if you acknowledge that they are different you can do both and one will not harm the other because people will be free to choose.

>thats funny especially when the amel brooks hit the market approx 4-5yrs after the amel calkings did in the 80's its always been done. many have done it deceptively which is unfortunate but doesnt change it.
what varieties have been lost?
people have always been free to choose. many choose to breed snakes with unknown lineages based on looks and that to me is no differant than producing hybrids.

>>>That's what I mean when I say teach people the concept of purity. To teach people that there is not really such a thing as purity by placing impossibly high standards on purity, ie saying they are only pure if they come from the same family group and even then they are only pure for 1 generation. This is a rediculous viewpoint and IMHO just encourages people to give up on trying to maintain a variety of forms within the hobby.

>really?!? you have pure from nature and then you have manmade there is no impossibly high standard or rediculous viepoint there just fact.

,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"manmade, made in nature, i guess its oversimplified. there is no arguement and im sorry you feel my opinion is counterproductive and insidious. but the fact is there are no ground rules and breeding a getula from n.fla. to one from Va. is as much a hybrid as breeding it to one from Ca."

You're entitled to your opinion but there are consequences to having that as your opinion and putting it into practice. The degree to which the snakes differ is the degree to which the offspring will homogenize, that is nature's rule not mine. I'm just telling people what will happen in the hope that some people will decide they are worth preseving.

"what varieties have been lost?"

None of the US varieties have been lost because new bloodlines are collected but lots of the Mexican, Central and South American Lampropeltis are either gone or at serious risk of being lost from the hobby.

"really?!? you have pure from nature and then you have manmade there is no impossibly high standard or rediculous viepoint there just fact."

What do you mean by "pure from nature"?

Purity is subjective. I would rather talk about the subjective nature of purity and try to get some sort of consensus than just say "if it's wild it's pure if it's captive born it isn't".
The former may generate some disagreement but the latter philosophy leads to homogenization of captive bloodlines, which is a huge loss to the hobby where we can no longer legally collect new bloodlines.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

>>You're entitled to your opinion but there are consequences to having that as your opinion and putting it into practice.-----

please tell me what consequences?

as for your homogenization hypothesis,,,,, pppfffftttt yogurt cheese curd.

with cbb even locality there is no natural selection. therefore whats produced is not natural its manmade no matter how bad one wants it to be natural/pure its not and NEVER WILL BE.
pure from nature or pure from some guy/gal that decided to breed snakes.
nothing wrong with some guy/gal breeding snakes we all know the benefits namely taking pressure of wild pops. are you really gonna say one guy/gals captive bred snakes are superior to another guys/gals because one breeds hybrids and one doesnt??? really???

,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Yogurt? Good arguement. I'm done.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Exactly! I don't even dislike hybrids, not even a little bit. I think the problem is selling the byproduct that looks close to the species used to make them. There are some really different looking animals produced, born with animals, not so different looking. Selling those animals that don't look completely unique, even as what they are, is irresponsible. They are more likely to get resold and end up where they can hurt a TRUE line. For what, $40? Those people CAN'T make the commitment to keep those animals, the ones that dont look very different, so they tell themselves it doesn't matter. I can't understand how someone who says they keep locality and hybrids would argue that. To call what you have a TRUE line and not understand how the other could end up effecting that line is weird. I would hope that someone doing this for a long time would know what they are looking for is and who to get it from. How can you expect someone, just starting, to grasp it all when it takes most people years to learn and some still don't get it?

How's everything been going over there?

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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

"How can you expect someone, just starting, to grasp it all when it takes most people years to learn and some still don't get it?"

I totally agree. Especially about the "some still don't get it" part.

I will also say that it's just as sad that more people in this hobby (especially nowdays) don't research way more into the specific types of snakes they are interested in getting or working with. I could never understand that either.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Things are great. Those brooksi are doing well. The male is freaking awesome like you said he'd be.

There is a big problem in the hobby with newbies not getting what they thought they were sold. My opinion is if you don't believe in subspecies that's fine but then you shouldn't be using subspecific terminology when you sell you're snake's offspring.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Cool, I'm glad you got them. He was good even by Thomas's standards for locality, conceived in the wild and hatched in captivity.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!