Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Doug,

Because you represent one extreme end/viewpoint in this hobby, do you (and others) have a set of rules that you play by? If so, can you outline them here?

For example, is it acceptable to you to breed say, a corn from Miami, FL, with a corn from Ft. Lauderdale, FL? Or Clewiston, or Spring Hill? Where is the cut-off to your acceptable range?

I did recently acquire three corns from Martin County, and they came from approximately a mile-long stretch. While it’s feasible, it’s also unlikely that these three would have met and bred. But because they’re from the same county and look similar, would your standards approve of breeding these snakes?

I understand that you keep hobby hondos--produced out of ignorance is your stance, correct? Well, considering the “mutts” you so chastise, could the case not be made that these mutts too were produced out of ignorance? And if so, how can you justify the keeping and celebration of one type of cross, while turning your nose to others? Is it simply because you keep them and like them, and therefore, they’re acceptable? Or is there another reason? If so, what is it?

And what of the reality that once we remove an animal from the wild, it no longer will be subjected to the same demands nature places on it, but to our whims alone? Extracting a slice of evolution for our own pleasure might be seen by some as disturbing some natural master plan, perhaps? (And how many of us are really part of some breeding plan, set to release our captive creations into the wild? In most cases, shouldn't our snakes have no bearing on the wild?)

Please understand and accept that I ask these questions in earnest. As I say, you seem to be a preeminent vocal proponent of a certain ideology, so my goal is to get more clarity.

Thanks!

For example, is it acceptable to you to breed say, a corn from Miami, FL, with a corn from Ft. Lauderdale, FL? Or Clewiston, or Spring Hill? Where is the cut-off to your acceptable range?

I did recently acquire three corns from Martin County, and they came from approximately a mile-long stretch. While it’s feasible, it’s also unlikely that these three would have met and bred. But because they’re from the same county and look similar, would your standards approve of breeding these snakes?

As long as they are the same subspecies (P.g.guttatus) and it doesn't get changed by someone there isn't a problem at all in my opinion. They are still 100% cornsnake, just not locale-specific is all.

I understand that you keep hobby hondos--produced out of ignorance is your stance, correct? Well, considering the “mutts” you so chastise, could the case not be made that these mutts too were produced out of ignorance? And if so, how can you justify the keeping and celebration of one type of cross, while turning your nose to others? Is it simply because you keep them and like them, and therefore, they’re acceptable? Or is there another reason? If so, what is it?

Not all Hondurans in the hobby necessarily have other Central American ssp. influence in their lineage, although most certainly do. The vast majority key-out taxonomically as hondurensis, but there is no way to know what percentage of what is in the mix or not anymore. After 30 plus years of being imported from different areas and bred by everyone and their brother without really knowing what they were (or weren't), they are what they are and that can never be reversed. There are just too many countless thousands out there. However, I know the differences between all of the Central American milks, and know where the true L.t.hondurensis are, as well as the other authentic Central American milks. Anyone that ever acquires real one's would already be very aware of the differences between the "hobby Hondos" and an authentic one. For one, they would have to pay far more for one. Another huge difference is that I won't EVER breed any authentic subspecies such as abnorma, stuarti, polyzona, oligozona etc..into ANY of the hobby Hondurans I work with....or vice-versa...EVER! The first amels originating from Leipzig, Germany in two groups were in fact amel L.t.polyzona.

This might be seen as hypocrisy to some, but the situation with Hondos is very different than most of the other snakes out there today. It is similar to anyone working with cornsnakes that might have some creamsicle (emoryi) influence in them from an old-school bloodline that was produced many years ago. All you can do is not add any foreign influence to them from that point on, and that is all that can be done in that particular instance. Keeping the Hobby Hondos from getting into any of the precious few other C. American subspecies in the hobby is extremely important in my opinion. That happened to the authentic Guatemalan milks (L.t.abnorma) back in the mid-late 1990's and they completely vanished forever until just recently with the true abnorma bloodline I know have.

And what of the reality that once we remove an animal from the wild, it no longer will be subjected to the same demands nature places on it, but to our whims alone? Extracting a slice of evolution for our own pleasure might be seen by some as disturbing some natural master plan, perhaps? (And how many of us are really part of some breeding plan, set to release our captive creations into the wild? In most cases, shouldn't our snakes have no bearing on the wild?)

Well, my stance really has nothing to do with reintroduction of anything into the wild at all. My view is solely in regards to all the muddied captive-bred snakes out there and to try to keep authentic stuff available for future years so people can enjoy what they buy something as.

Please understand and accept that I ask these questions in earnest. As I say, you seem to be a preeminent vocal proponent of a certain ideology, so my goal is to get more clarity.

Anyway, that's basically how I see it. But there are many different facets to it's complexity and there is way more to it than I could possibly type in a single post though.

cheers, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

hahaha check out the hypocrite defending his hypocracy classicoh and the lil blurb about him and only him having PURE CA milks ahahahahaaAAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAAA, CLASSIC LIKE YOU WOULD KNOW did you catch them doug or does some book tell you what they are oh that and info from an importer, oh you bet, trueblue PURE there, mo'betta than any other CA milks cuz you just know! ROFLMFAO!!!
still a cornsnake AHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAAAHAHAAA yeah it is doug it is still a cornsnake AHAHAHAHAAAHAHAAAAHAHAHAA
even if its a corn from alabama bred to one from virginia its still a corn just like my MONGRELKINGS are still kings.
and a CA milk from honduras and one from costa rica's offspring is STILL a CA milk
congrats, your gettin it, im happy for you

,,,,,,,,,,
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

The scrambled ramblings of a true madman!..
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks, Doug!

So it seems like the theoretical Miami and Spring Hill cross would be the "generic" corn snake?

Here's a couple more questions: What would constitute "locality" then? I literally live a few yards away from a county line, so it's possible to have a mix of corns from two counties occur in nature. What would those be considered? Pasco or Hernando County corns? And how far away can (or close does) one corn have to be from another to constitute "locale specific"?

So if a generic corn is acceptable, is a generic gulf hammock or greenish rat? Where ranges overlap and subspecies intermingle, it's obviously common to find crosses. So if that's natural, and a black rat does recognize a yellow rat as a mate (whether or not the yellow is from the Carolinas or FLA), are the manmade "generic" greenish rats considered acceptable?

Thanks again!

All sorts of things are acceptable to some people, and certain other things aren't by others. My opinion is that if the subspecies isn't instantly changed by a man-made captive cross-breeding there is no problem. I work with some recently discovered locale-specific T-plus "greenish" ratsnakes too. Those were a product of nature in a specific area of S. Carolina where there are only Black x Yellow natural intergrades. The original morph male was found less than 140 yards from the two wild "greenish" females he was bred with. So since nature made them, it's all good. Those will always stay just like they are as long as I am working with them too.

Gulf Hammocks are great too if nature produced them. It's when people toss different species and subspecies together that throws a wrench into things for the hobby. That's my take on it anyway.

Like I said, when I breed a Hobby Hondo, the offspring will stay hobby Hondos. If I breed a locale specific "greenish rat", the offspring will stay a locale "greenish" ratsnake. When I breed Outer Banks kings together, the offspring will stay Outer Banks kings. When I breed these rare Guatemalan milks together, they will remain Guatemalan milks. When I breed corns together, the offspring will remain cornsnakes. 15 years from now none of the subspecies will never change because of something foreign I threw into the mix. If some phenotypes vary some, the subspecies still always remains the same.

Does that explain my stance well enough?

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yes, I'll leave ya alone now

>>so my goal is to get more clarity.

good luck with that andy.

,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hey, thomas! We all know there will be differences of opinions on pretty much any topic out there, but I do like to hear all sides of an "argument" (if that's what this can be called). Everything to me everywhere really is murky and muddy, and I'm always curious as to where people draw lines and how they came to draw them. I think you draw a line at species crosses, correct? I'm a bit more wary of species crosses myself, largely because I don't understand how genetics works. Like, an arboreal snake (like a rat snake) has more vertebrae than a king snake. And their anal plate is divided, unlike a king snake's. So how do the genetics know what to do when those species are crossed???

>>I think you draw a line at species crosses, correct?

captive is captive. i dont draw any lines with captive snakes they are captives. if its locale great!, i keep some locality if its close great! if its downright hybrid... great! in the end all of those CREATIONS are simply captive snakes.
the only arguement left to the purists is my and others crosses will destroy future generations when the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop,etc for a breeder based on looks. also in the end lets say LIL JIMMY breeds what he thought were 2 same ssp. and upon breeding them sees there is something else in the mix, WHATS REALLY LOST?!?!?!?!? its STILL a captive snake.
yeah some rat/king crosses will have divided anal plates some not, on my bullXcorn crosses some have 4prefontals and some only 2, i like stuff like that, thats why i do it ones ive sold in the past my customers liked, so what ive honestly sold them as what they are can i help it if someone down the line misrepresents or lies? hybrids and crosses are not going away they have always been here (herptoculture) and always will be.

the sky... the sky... its... its...its... F A L L I N G
,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hi fliptop,
You didn't ask me, but I wanted to weigh in. While this seems to make me the minority, I personally prefer snakes from mixxed localities. I just like knowing the parents of said hatchlings are not related (but same subspecies). That's just me. I am however aware of bloodlines that have actually been heavily inbred and still maintained their vigor, while others did not. With that said, my hat's off to those who dilligently maintain and produce locality specific animals. Keep it up guys.

Alan,