Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What do you think? Any thoughts?

I have all different kinds except for solid gray.

Think it matters to the occupants?

Feel bad if they can't see what's going on around them?

I just ordered some more transparent Vision V70s to replace some ARS tubs which are great tubs but mostly only allow light in.

I figure on a certain level it stinks to be a captive and I'd like to make it a less irksome existence so I think about this stuff. I think I would rather see my surroundings but is that a fair assessment on how the animals see it?

We all know some desire seclusion and do better not out in the open.

Could it be cruel to see the outside world and not get to it and better to just be kept in a dark tub?

I'm sure we all have the same desire to be good to the animals in our care.
Just curious as to how all of you see it.

We all know some desire seclusion and do better not out in the open.

Could it be cruel to see the outside world and not get to it and better to just be kept in a dark tub?

Good questions Bob. And one i think will not cause so much divsion as other topics here unless someone start to get personal and point teh finger again.

I think the enclsers you have are wonderful for the snakes.

Maybe I am different from FR on this because he seems to really really care more about the snakes much more than I do or anyone else, for that matter.

But to me, being KINGSNAKES (not boids, racers, treesnakes ect) they live in holes in the ground. They don't get cluasterphobic (ever). They are fossorial most of there lives. So to me an existence in a tub with stuff in it with temp gradients, food, water, proper humidity ect. they have a great life in IMO.

the only thing they lack is there instinct to gravitate to what they are designed for. to search and do what they do like a magnet clings to metal. We don't even know hwo these creatures know how to do it. Like birds migrate. we take that away from them. awe know that snakes can die if not properly relocated. Or even if they are they are so disturbed they may move into another area just to die from lack of the habiatat and food they need to support themselevs.

So I wonder how much thought or worry they actually have from living in a boring box. They have everything they need and i don't think they worry mch way . In what they miss and also what they have. They just have it there and since they are used to living in holes in teh ground I don't think we can compare them to a person, a dog or a cat or even a rodent or warm blooded animals. They are fricking snakes that live in holes in te ground.

In all that makes kingsnakes the perfect terrarium pet. Perfect for us humans to enjoy. set up. breed, learn from ect. But i don't think they will be missed or anyone misses them in nature.

So point being. Once you put a snake in a box. That is what it is and will be for the rest of its life. No release back into the wild. They are here for our enjoyment and I say lets captive breed the heck out of them and the color morph varients, the crosses , the hybrids and locality specimens..whatever makes us happy and we enjoy.

So why can't we just get along and respect one anothers enjoyemnst and stop the stupid fighting over trivial stuff. We could learn so much from each other without teh bad mouthing and one-upping. It is really a shame. But in a prfect world i wish we could all enjoy and see things this way.

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

I know Kings are not known to be big time basking animals but I do observe mine in captivity hanging out under a light source even though they are CFLs and do not generate heat. Their heating needs are met by heat tape/pads in the area of 100degrees. I often wonder if they sometimes utilize sunlight not only to warm themselves but also utilize UV to "cleanse" themselves from fungus/bacteria etc. since they do spend a lot of time in burrows.

This cool pic that Pyromaniac posted on the Pit forum makes me wonder about the "enriching" of their lives.

It's good to hear others take on things.

Hi Bob,....

Sure, lots of wild kings have been found basking very openly in the early morning sun on canal banks, field edges, etc...

They will often situate themselves length-wise directly towards the sun on cool mornings to absorb as much warmth over the broadest area of their bodies as possible, then go do their "thing" after the optimum temp is achieved (whatever that may be). Very similar to what alligators and crocodiles do.

Nice cages BTW!...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks Doug.

My field experience isn't much. Most of my observations are "in-house" .

I was under the impression from what I've read here from folks with lots of field experience that Kings skin is thin and desiccates easily unlike the Pits that have thicker scales? I've seen some folks taken to task for using low wattage bulbs to heat them while trying to mimic the sunlight from above as you might expect in nature. I of course do realize they like to pic their temps while hidden too to avoid predators. ( This King sometimes sit squarely under this CFL beam even though her heat pad under the fake hollow rock is in excess of 100degrees.)

Interesting...

Discussions, not arguments are a great way to cash in on folks experience and learn stuff here. One of the redeeming values of the Forum.

I also realize we are talking opinions/exprrience here so I'm not looking to provoke drama folks.

Sure, lots of wild kings have been found basking very openly in the early morning sun on canal banks, field edges,

You are talking the southeast where you have the floridana and eastern getula. But most kingsnakes in the rest of the country spend very limited time in the sun basking during spring and summer months and even with some spend no time basking in sunlight at all.

For instance.. western zonata spend most of their time underground and only come near the surface during late spring. Ten thats it. Even during hot summer they go back underground away from the sun and heat . Soem gravid females venture into dark carvinorous forest where sunshine does not even get through because of the trees to lay eggs in decomposing tree stumps . They avoid any direct sunlight. I have never heard or seen one basking in direct sunlight. They just don't 'need' it.

I have found much of the same with cal kings in general (unless it is during a very short window of time like maybe two weeks out of teh year in feb or march). Othersise it would be a heck of a lot easier to find them in desert habitat in early morning sun by just walking.

Now rattelsnakes. They are different. So are other species of snakes. They like to bask. But teh question is do they "need" it like lizards do to be healthy? I think not.So they do it just because they are thermoregulating their body temps? Obviously they don't need direct sun or they would be out in sunlight during most of the warmer months of the year.

How we obsevre snakes is when we see them during spring on teh suface. Tey are also trying to breed and males go cruising for females ect. The rest of teh year they dissapear. That is why herpers figured out to set up Artifcial cover. And that A/C even has to be sitting out for a season or two before a snake will even utilze it and dare to crawl under it. What does that tell us? Snakes like living underground and safe.They are what we call 'secreative" .. where they cannot get picked up by predators and they certainly would not be basking in sunlight if they want to live. If they avoid newly placed A/C they will avoid sitting in direct sunlight unles they live in such a place like Florida. where they seem to be higher on teh predator scale than southwestern kingsnakes.

being from california, i'd have to agree with that.

i've seen plenty of rattlesnakes and garter snakes basking (and one random pacific gopher), but never have i seen a lampro basking in the sun.
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westmextricolors.wix.com/west1

i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

Interesting.
I was thinking after I posted that that I was not taking into account the differences in humidity in the different parts of the country.

Ah, Rozy sunbathing. I try to imagine how they feel and how nice it is to be able to feel the sun on one's back. The idea that the uv rays cleanse the snakes's skin is interesting. Maybe it also helps their immune systems in general. I have a friend who benefits from solar exposure to mitigate his psoriasis, an auto-immune disease. It seems any animal that deliberately seeks out the sun has a real need for it. My pits are much more interested in sunbathing than my pyros, but the pyros like to see what is going on outside their cages.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I like the vision cages an have started using them. The only thing I don't like is the limited depth you can provide due to the shallow lip. I'm think of gettin some taller ones and modifying the lip and door to allow deeper substrate. My other problem has been, without a $1000 ad bill, keeping safe temps. I'm playing around with some new low watt bulbs to see if I can get that under control. I still think its stupid to keep them together but I do like, with my new smaller collection, providing them with more......wait for it.........choices. Oh my god, that's right, we never said that was a bad thing.
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I personally love the Visions. Our snakes are so awesome looking its a shame to not see them more often. Some are better at displaying than others. For those, I feel more comfortable with utilizing tubs. My Pyros and Graybands seem to be very comfortable displaying once they lose their fear of you.

Yes a taller cage and a glass lip would probably be a nice simple temporary mod for a Vision cage. I have played with the idea of using glass and using aquarium sealant to adhere powerful magnets to it and using large powerful magnets on the outsides so I don't have to permanently damage a cage.

Hi Bob,

I have also considered raising the lip on my Visions as well for the purpose of allowing deeper substrate. Instead of the magnets though, you could use a line or two of silicone caulk to adhere the new glass/plexi lip to the cage. That way, if you intended to remove the extended lip at some point, you would just need to give it a good slice with a sharp utility blade. then just scrape the excess off. I wouldn't use strong magnets, as long term exposure to powerful magnetic fields can mutate DNA. I know the risk is slight, but it is a risk.

I have modified the shat out of my 3ft Visions. I have holes drilled all over them from screwing branches in place for my jungles. If I ever sold them, I'd tell the customer that the extra ventilation would be no charge. good luck.

Will

Thanks Will.

I wasn't sure the aquarium silicone would adhere to the Vision plastic. That would be an easier solution.

Interesting point about the magnets. One of the reasons I value this forum to kick things around and benefit from others thoughts. If possible, I'd rather forgo the costly mistakes and possible harm to the animals .

"No charge" lol

What's nice about this size is you would have plenty of room to have quite a lip. The problem would be the closer you get to this type of light the more it ""Backlights" your viewing. I had the less expensive #400 models and found that type of lighting annoying.

I have also thought of levels of very thin plywood or plexiglass and lit up with red or blue LEDs to view the animals. I've thought that plexiglass would allow for the use of a dampened substrate? I have a big sheet of black plexiglass I wound up not using for another project.

Congratulations on supporting choices. Please keep in mind, if you do not support the right choices, then its for nothing.

The problem with many here is, they do not understand what choices to offer. So they end up saying their animals do not make choices.

The key is usable choices, like I said, in nature, its all about making choices, in captivity, its a bit hard to understand what that means. It is complicated as its based on what you as an individual already provide and the individual animal.

With varanids, this was coined usable temps, usable humidity, usable substrate, etc. Not just temps, or humidity, or whatever.

This is the wonderful part, You like different species, but most do not address them as different species, muchless individuals.

An example is, On the hog forum, many say, we love hogs, and I asked how come, as they keep them exactly like kings or corns or anyother colubrids. Its just a thought. You can't see them(in racks) and all conditions are exactly like any generic colubrid.

So as you set up your cages and reset them up, ask yourself, are these choices they understand how to make. That is very important. Good luck

{b]this was coined usable temps, usable humidity, usable substrate, etc. Not just temps, or humidity, or whatever. {/b]

usable.. Usable.. USABLE ..USABLE...Usble.. Ueblo. Usabe. UGH! Okay i will try and rememebr that term.

Just wanna make sure everyone undertands my typo for usble.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

ARE you healthy yet???? I hope so, cause!!!!!!!

Ok, is that not a real word? good if not, as I love making up words, remember, the english language is based on making up words. If its used, then its real. Or is it spelled wrong. Either way.

All in all, its true, with varanids, there was a huge bump in temps to allow success, from hot spots of 90F to a minimum of 135F to WELL 200F and they WORKED. And worked well. When I came up with that, the key is using them temps so the animals used them, HENCE usable, errrr useable, not you and I able.

Anyway, you get the picture, I will allow you to use a better word. That would be great.

I just came back from a Cali spring run. Not great, but lots of boas and kings and crots. Best wishes

I just came back from a Cali spring run. Not great, but lots of boas and kings and crots

Not great?..you're killin me man.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

I had not done a spring Cal trip in a very long time. I just wanted to see the normal stuff I saw as a young man.

I did see striped racers, which I really like, two stripe garders, ringnecks etc. And alligator lizards, one of my all time favs. as well as lots of gilberts skinks and western skinks. I really wanted to see some coastal gophers, but missed on that, did find a cabazon intergrade. Desert/coastal gopher.

And I got a touch of poison oak, hahahahahahahahahaha, It really doesn't bother me. It does go along with spring herpin.

One sad story, a friend went to a Mitchells den, two days before we got there. He hooked out a male, to take pics or whatever. We found it dead. Sad. Best wishes

yeah I am stuck out here on the east coast (Georgia) where field herping doesn't do much for me due to the lack of diverse lifezones. Umm, what's the old saying.." It's a nice place to visit because i would want to herp there my whole life?" LOL

Anyway, I have dreams of stomping around the foothills around the southwest. Espcially whenever my birthday comes around in early april. That is what i used to do on my birthday. Go snake hunting. Now it is just a dream.

I hate GA, Florida ect. LOL

PS.
I do end up going in May to do a little field collecting out west but i am usually tied down with a female partner.. thus slowing me down.

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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

I really like your cages but have not as of yet been able to afford them. I got a bunch of big glass tanks in a mouse trade and my snakes enjoy watching the activity in the room. Some of my smaller snakes are in big sterilite tubs, and I have several 2012 pyros in tubs. But there is plenty of natural light. Being diurnal they do appreciate the light. I'd mostly dispense with the tubs altogether but find them easy to move around, unlike the glass which is heavy, best not moved about.

I have one very timid baby bull who just got moved into a big tub and the opaque walls seem to have given him a sense of security, as now he is feeding well and not hissing and bluffing like before through the glass.

My living room with some of my snakes hanging out on top of their hide boxes. If they want it dark they can go under the boxes.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

This glass cage is in a high traffic area but they don't care! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

You do what you can when you can...
I worked a lot of overtime and found some used in really good shape for good prices. I had to watch classifieds for a long time for what I thought were good deals.

Your animals look well tended. You're Like Billy, always messing with them in one way or another whether handling, hanging out whatever... I personally think that enriches their lives giving them interesting things to be inquisitive with. Like Rosy said, maybe they don't care but it is an interesting thing to contemplate.

You got me thinking of investing in one of those screened cages for the back porch. These Pits seem like they have a lot going on behind the eyes.

lllreptile.com/store/catalog/-/24-x-24-x-48-inch-aluminum-screen-cage/
This is what I got. To make it snake escape proof install aluminum window screen in the bottom panel then lay the cage on its side with the door on top and put a sheet of linoleum or some such the length on the floor, then a deep aspen and boxes to hide under. If you have cats put a sturdy wire screen cover like this:

to prevent them from falling through the top when they jump onto it. All my cages not in shelving have the anti-cat screen tops...cats! Argh! Also makes it possible to set things on top of the tanks when needed.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Cool. Thank you Sir.

Do you ever find that there is a concern with nose rubs doing this Bob? The concept is real interesting. Like having a rabbit hutch outside for your snakes.

Ever get your Pits resenting you bringing them back in?

Well, last year I was going to prevent baby bullsnakes so I put the male and the female in separate adjoining screen cages. He got very displeased and rubbed his nose on the screen, but then I relented and put him in with her.

No more nose rubbing, although this did not prevent baby bulls later! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Thanks. Love the idea.

I have always thought that clear or unclear cages, as long as their cages have good hides for them to seclude themselves from being seen or not seen, it seems like they are happy. But, at the same time, allowing as much light to be in the cage would not be considered a bad thing, if they have great hides.

Good questions and thoughts brother!!

I have seen some of the rack systems that had cages that were not clear, to where you could not seen in them, like the solid gray ones, and I always thought that it would not allow as much enjoyment as to be able to walk into your snake room, and view everyone without much effort. Nothing like taking a moment out of your day, walking in, relaxing, and seeing everyone in a matter of minutes, either cruising around or hiding.

Pits, kings, no matter what, they all seem to do well in clear cages in my collection.

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Genesis 1:1

I feel a bit uncomfortable about the solid color tubs as I mentioned but like Rosy said maybe it doesn't matter. How do we judge "happy"? I'm not serious. But I wonder about it.

I hear ya!
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Genesis 1:1

howdy bob, i dont think lampropeltis really care being fossorial but other sp. like say pituophis i would never keep in a tub. differant beast.
my pines are very curious and alert. they are housed in groups 1.2 or 1.3 to 125g aquarium 6ftX2ftX2ft the groups will interact with other tanks and groups and i believe providing/allowing visual stimuli is healthy for them. lampros not so much, ball pythons nope, so i go by sp. and type.
my newest snaker is an 8ft yellowtail cribo and like my n.pines very inquisitive. a snake like that i could never dream about putting in a tub. also i do corns and rats in tubs but have better results with them in cages namely aquariums or neodeshas. i suppose i am one of the only ones left that still use 20g long tanks i have several dozen and prefer them to tubs for most of my collection. but my kings and milks they get tubs.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Any downside to housing Pits together other than bigger cleanup? I know T. Spuckler has mentioned housing his Black Pines together and Pyromaniac often pics his together.

I've kept my Snakes in tubs in the past but now I just keep them in aquariums. I can then see clearly what needs cleaning and can watch my captives without disturbing them.

Keith.

Your exactly right. You cannot even think about putting such active snakes as cribos in a rack type cage.

And you can with kings, but that does not make it all they are. If allowed, they love large cages and work well in groups and get along great. Just not so much in tiny cages.

My question for kings is, it can be done, there is no doubt, but should it be done all the time? Thanks great post

Snakes do find shelters with a view in nature. So do many lizards. So yes, I think it would be good if you provide a way for your snakes(some of then) to see.

I am with you on the snakes in a box with nothing to do.

They also need security as well. Best wishes

"Snakes do find shelters with a view in nature"

Interesting.

"Snakes do find shelters with a view in nature"

Interesting.

Yeah FR just gave away a secret on how to find lamprpeltis out west and other snakes.

you peer into crevices while walking. On the right day they will be out ..or their coils seen.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

Good questions.

Very species dependent I would imagine. Rosy boas for example seem to do best in smallish caging, even as adults. Getula like small cages as babies. As adults, they will use a larger cage to their advantage (larger than a tub anyway). I think body shape and eye size is very telling. Small rosy eyes and fat bodies = they like it slow, dim and not travel far. Long slender snake and big eyes - they like to move and see and chase.