Reptile & Amphibian Forums

it is hard to tell with the yellow tinge lighting (maybe from indoor yellow lights or walls) but it looks like a snow Florida king (Lavender Albino x Anerythritic).

It is best to take the snake outside on an overcast day to get accurate pics of teh colors.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

Yes we need better pix. I would add that to me, it looks more eastern than anything...

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Yep, looks more like an Eastern King but obviously a cross of some sort. Without knowing some history, there is no telling.

I was more thinking a lavender splendida.
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www.brooksi.com

It's a crossed lavender king. It looks to be a lavender Cal. king x floridana of some sort of percentage. There's no way on earth that is a "Florida" king with all that white flecking on the snout and sides of the face, as well as the draped "chain" type pattern it is displaying.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug,

While I don't disagree with you that it could possibly be a crsoos with cal king. Or crossed with a cal king at some point. Which is quite common with teh lavender albino trait.

But recessive traits DO effect pattern. And the lavender (lavender albino) trait does effect pattern on a brooks more so than te hypomelanistic trait. And we all know NONE of the hypos relly has much of a brooksi /Floridana pattern. They have th stripe on teh nape and their is no busy side pattern with distinguished bars on to.

Another thing is if you bred a normal California king to a Normal florida king and create a brand new 50/50 cal x florida cross it will have more pattern than that lavender snake in teh picture. Then if you breed back twice a normal cal x Florida to a Florida again the pattern is almost completly broken up classic floridasna pattern. Then they get more of t chunky body heft and head head starts to minic the florda more. Also teh calmer dispostion of the Floridana follews as well.

So just because the pattern is not classic broken up on teh sides and has a low band count has no bearing on whether it is a cross.

That being said. I think that still could be a cross sinc emost lavender Florida came from cal kings that Florida residents started breeding into their backyard catches in teh 80's. I remember going to Florida shows in the early 90's and finding cal x floridana crosses on tables from florida residenst quite common.

The one in te pic aboves head shape is more of a tell than anything. To me it looks more classic Florida king head shape and neck. Cal king crosses tend to have longer heads and weaker looking necks when bred back once or twice.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

Yes, this is definitely a "mutt"...and in MY opinion, Eastern King is in the mix, but whatever else is the mystery. My guess is, as most of you have stated, is Cali.
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1.1 Trumbower Tricolor P.C.Sayi
0.1 Albino Trumbower Tricolor P.C.Sayi
1.0 Normal (het.for Axanthic) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Whitesided (het.for Patternless,poss.Axan) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Leucistic P.M.Mugitus
0.1 Snow P.M.Mugitus

Of the controversy the two camps here often discuss. You bought a nice snake you thought was pretty and are enjoying it. It's important that YOU like it and I hope you enjoy it and it has a long nice life.

NEGATIVES - You will probably never really know what it is without history. It's apparently the reality you have when you purchase a snake like yours that looks nice to you. Might be part Lab might be part poodle. What's for sure is its YOURS. Enjoy it for what it is but you won't really be able to get some folks to appreciate it at all. When you eventually breed it and sell the babies, some of the folks that come up to your table inquiring about it will walk away when you can't tell them anything for sure.

POSITIVES - You have a somewhat unique animal. It's blend of whatever it's make up is , would likely never have been seen out in the wild. You like it and enjoy it enough to clean its cage for the next decade? Good for you.

I'm not really passionate about either side and can see some of the points of both sides. I personally am drawn to locality, or an animal that is bred to look like a refined version of the qualities that are typically found in nature in an area. But as an outsider of sorts to the whole thing which has been talked about at great tiresome length here, it seems your situation is a perfect example of their passionate opposing opinions.

Remember YOU like it and that's all that's important. Enjoy.

I

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

There is nothing wrong with keeping specifically bred locality snakes. Soem people like to have pair from teh same hillside. Or even unde rthe same trash pile they were found at. Then you have some from te same county but seprated by concrete and Interstates.

it all really boils down to what you want.

What it does not eman is you have to have one or the other (something which seems to be a problem with some on this forum) . You can have both. locality specific, generics, natural crosses, unatural crosses and hybrids. One can enjoy all of them.

As far as the brow beating on this forum .. Yes it has caused a lot of people to turn away. What is funny is the people who have a cross and enjoy it. No longer feel they can after a few people break out into their snakes is better because it is not a "MUTT". HA HA! They love to use that derogatory term mutt. Well even ddogs are all mutts selectivly bred for genrations raised from wolves.

It is always about somebody who thinks there is better while we all keep these snake sin tupperare boxes or aquariums and then breeding for color. either way. They are not natural forms any longer. They are forced breeding from unbonded animals (yes snakes bond for genrations and selctivly breed each other) that are usually opicked up from another breeder or breeders. Unless you caught teh snake syourself and breed them they are all unatural generics imo.

Also the snake above is a very common look for lavender Florida kings because the recessive trait effects pattern. Which the people commenting saying it is a cross have no idea about that fact.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

Bob, that second photo is a lie, it's supposed to be in the low 40's and upper 30's here in FL tonight......LOL....
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...

....this one I had years ago....

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

That is a snow as well.

You got to remmeber there is no anery in Cal kings or easterns or any other kings. So e know at least that the anery in a snow came from a Florida. Then even if it was a Florida that had the lavender tait injected into it years ago was probably bred back and for all intense puposes looked like a large robust Florida. Then that wa sbred to teh anery.

BTW Anerythristic Florida king is anothe rcessive trait that effecst pattern on Floride kings. Ever see a brookis pattern anery before. No, they are usually abberant pattern formed due to the recssive trait effected the pattern as well on these.

So the double homo snow the OP posted could indeed be 100% Florida with all these traits effecting patterns. People need to slow down before they judge by teh look of the pattern of a Flordana multi homozygot before pronoucing it a cross with Cali king.

By the wayyy ,...why have we not seen any Blue eyed blond, Paolomar ghost or any of te lavender hypoish looking Florida kings that are so common in teh Calif kings? I guess people stopped breeding calis into Florida a loooong time ago.??Otherwise we would have a Paolomar type ghost or something along those lines in Floridana.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

...yep, so glad you're here to clear it all up for us......
another thing that many of the "know it alls" out there who think they know exactly where their purchases come from, is that quite a few of their beloved big name breeders get some of their animals from back yard breeders...just like me....

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Ha! I was having trouble keeping up until he explained it in a way, I could understand?
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Gerard

"How awesome would it be to deny the prophecy?"

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Just remember, next time you see a morph that looks like it has hybrid influence, it's only because the "authentic" mutant gene it has is affecting the pattern..LOL!! I guess that's a convenient way of saying.......nevermind what it looks like, as long as it's fairly close to what it's "supposed" to be.

I guess I could put something like this Cal. king x floridana hybrid in with my Outer Banks, or even the floridana. Not sure which though,..but heck, I could label and sell the offspring as either one anyway...right?...

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Just remember, next time you see a morph that looks like it has hybrid influence, it's only because the "authentic" mutant gene it has is affecting the pattern..LOL!! I guess that's a convenient way of saying.......nevermind what it looks like, as long as it's fairly close to what it's "supposed" to be

No that is not what i am saying at all.

I thought I was pretty clear and i would explain it to you if you asked. But I guess you are just trying to troll again. Always the stealthy instigator. Man i wish teh mod here would wise up to you.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

"trolling" -seeking to disrupt this site with inflammatory posts
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

" I guess I could put something like this Cal. king x floridana hybrid in with my Outer Banks, or even the floridana. Not sure which though,..but heck, I could label and sell the offspring as either one anyway...right?"

Right! HA HA!!

All kidding aside, that Outer Banks is spot-on perfect, and our hobby is blessed to have breeders such as yourself, and the many other, fine established breeders I know, to be producing perfect specimens of real species. No skeletons, no surprises, and great snakes!!

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Genesis 1:1

another thing that many of the "know it alls" out there who think they know exactly where their purchases come from, is that quite a few of their beloved big name breeders get some of their animals from back yard breeders...just like me

Those "big name" breeders breed everyhuing. Boids, pythons, hybrids, colubrids. They seem to undertand that each has its place in the hobby and that there are many people who like different things and different flavors. I happen to be one of them. i like all facets of herpetoculture. No need to keep bashing one group because u like one thing and they like another.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

When did I bash anyone?

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

That was not directed at you mark. But te others on this thread.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

I've seen pattern aberrancy with Hypo genes but never with Axanthic or Anery. Maybe if the hypo gene was involved? Also pattern aberrancy is just usually aberrant not looking like the pattern of another king??? Your confusing the subject. The other Cal King mutations you listed and wondered about....how do you know what they would look like? You can imagine but you may have produced several and didn't know.

Keith

I never said te axanthic gene effects abberancy. Just the ypo and Anery gene.

Maybe you made a mictake in thinking teh anery and axanthic gene in Florida were the same. they are not . they ar enot allelic and are different recessive traits.

Actually i beleive the anery trait effect color more so than any other line trait in creating reds in a double homo morph. The anerys seem to be mostly from very dar rust or brown phenotyes. which when combined with a lavender albino for instance. just makes the colors pop in teh amel form whic is borrowed from the phenotype anery.

of course today we probably have the Anerythrictic phenotype bred out and we have a very different "anery" today . So none of this really applies anymore. I am speaking from old school experince. Just thought it was interesting to mention for people into Floridana morphs and breeding. If you can find an ugly runt dirty and muddy anery that looks like poo. It may be the best ting to breed into light colored morpsh that show red like hypo, lavender albino, T negative albino ect.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

You know I know the difference between Axanthic and Anerys, don't play games. How are anerys sometimes aberrant? I've only seen normal Floridana patterned animals.

You know I know the difference between Axanthic and Anerys, don't play games. How are anerys sometimes aberrant? I've only seen normal Floridana patterned animals

You obviously don't know what I am talking about. I am not playing games. Don't take my words as a bad thing. i am just trying to explain.

The normal phenotype.. argghh, I mean the "normal" HET for anery shows normal Florida pattern. But the Anerythisitic version is abberant. The anery visual form does not show nomal basic Floridana pattern.

Not so with the axanthic. With the axanthic the pattern is not effected in its visual form with the abberanices like the hypo and Anery in their visual form.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

I'm calling bs since I've seen many Anery Florida Kings and they were of normal patterns. Do you have examples?

Keith listen. If it was somebody else asking. i would post it.

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK.

I am not going to waste my time on you again because it is an endless spin. If i prove one thing then there is another. What prize do i get for proving you wrong? maybe you should pay me to educate you. Otherwise i don't think anyone is interested in your thoughts.

Why don't you do you own research and learn something before you speak to me..on second thought don't bother. Stay in the dark . I really don't care.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

Yeah like I said bs.

What is is rally funny is that you don't know anything about Florida genetics yet you are questioning me. HA HA HA!

Oh mannn . I live this genetics stuff everyday for years. HA HA HA!

tell you what. Put your BS where you mouth is. Paypal me $50. and i will post you a pic of several abberant anerys. Duh!
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

Keith

SEE! I know you Keith. If i went through the trouble of posted an abberant anerythristic king you would just say it is a cross. There is no winning anything with you, And I know that.

So pay up if you want info. Otherwise I will just assume you are trolling me.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

No I'm just giving up since you often mold the facts to fit your egregious self serving meandering posts....just sayin'

Don't bother replying I'm done.

Keith

No I'm just giving up since you often mold the facts to fit your egregious self serving meandering posts

And u forgot to add the "nefarious" backrounds of my snakes.

There is no self meandering posts man. i just don't dig you dude.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

Rainer I prefer you NOT to dig me so that's alright, no worries. Here is a link to a post of a bunch of Anery Kings please point out the ones that are aberrant because of the Anery mutation.
Anery Kings

Some of those are very abberant.

Abberancy effected by the hypo trait is the same way. You get one end of the spectrum to the other. Sometimes you get large saddles and lowband count as some of those in the link. Sometimes you get lines. Sometimes you get both and a patternless top with no bars.

If you look at that link you just posted to some of my anerys. you will notice that some that appear to be very similar to teh lavender the OP posted. someone who does not know (as some posters here pointed out) that the way the Florida looks it appears to be crossed with a Cali x...or a eastern x Florida based on the disticnt thin chain pattern.

Looks at te pics. you will see some. Now imagine if te trait is lavender albino. Same pattern there..hmmm. Even when you see them, you are confused.

Anyway, just as the Op had posted of his lavender. My point is and wwas that the anery trait as well as the hypo and lavender albino triat effect pattern and not just color in Florida kingsnakes. The Anery with the eastern like banding is no different.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

Yeah those are like crazy aberrant. Like I said you mold the facts to best fit your beliefs.

K

Ya you are right. That anery does not look abberant at all.

and the other anerys o the link don't look like they have the chain pattern of a Cal king or eastern king either. Same with the OP's lavender. His does not look abberant either. Nope not at all. LOL!
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

There is one with thicker bands but they aren't aberrant just influenced by whatever??? If this is your lone example I think I proved my point.

no these are not "my" lone examples. These are your lone examples.

When i made that post i didn't want to cloud the issue with posting anerys that were more abberant. That was not teh topic at hand when I poste dthose pics. So i chose the more classic patterned ones.

Like I aid in teh eginning of this thread. it is a never ending circle with you. that is why i choose to not respond your your questions and give answers.

carry on.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis