Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In a post below, it was stated that fish are not part of a hognose diet, but they did react well to scenting with tuna and or salmon juice.

So today, I picked up a couple of fresh dead goldfish(feeders) and tested them on two hogs.

Both ate the dang fish. Interesting.

In the field, I did find hognose activity in the water, it just never occurred to me that fish would be part of their diet.

I guess I will have to test more. Cheers

Frank,
In my experience, well established hogs will eat anything you ove infront of them. This includeds hotdogs and chop meat. That might explain their activity near bar-b-que's...

Now we are talking, yes, normal healthy hogs have a wide range of things they normally consume. But, those Bar-g-Q hogs did not eat salad, or fruit, or bugs did they? So they do have a certain range of what they consider food.

I am going out today to see if the wild hogs are up and moving yet. I have not see them attempt to eat a sign post or tree. Hmmmmmmmmm Again, they do have a range of what food is.

Which brings up the question, why are these neonates so picky and have to be tricked? Even some larger captive hogs require this trickery. Why is that?

That is my question. As one that has worked with tens of thousands of neonates, and works in the field with the same. I do question that? Once while living in Fla. I was rehabing a S.A. hawk. I was cutting the fat off of beef heart on my porch. I had to go to the store(for the wife) When I came back, their was a neonate cornsnake eating the beef heart. Hmmmmmmmmmm Lessons of reality.

One thing i learned in the field is, colubrids do not nest to just hatch the eggs, they find nesting areas so that the neonates can survive. Heres a funny thought, how come keepers hatch eggs in particular conditions, then as soon as the egg hatches, CHANGE those conditions to something else? This is a very serious question, do you have an answer?

Yes, Gregg your right, healthy normal hogs will eat just about anything. But many here do not know that.

Its so hard to get any of you guys to actually talk about the hogs and not attack people(just because they think differently then you)

My whole approach on this is based on what you said. A well adjusted individual will consume a wide varity of prey items. The question must be, how do you make a picky(not well adjusted) individual, into a well adjusted individual? Any ideas??

You see sir, that is the question?

Of course, me being me(FR) I have to go a little further. It appears that most here, blame the animal for being picky. That is, most of the neonates do fine, so this picky individual is WRONG. You KNOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW I am sensitive about blaming animals for our own lack of understanding.(Do you know where what YOU KNOWWWWWW comes from?)

Those picky individuals CAN be indicators that husbandry is marginal.

Its my opinion that husbandry should be looked at first, then use trickery as a last resort. But so far on this site, shoe box(recipe) husbandry is protected as if it was saintly.

I do understand that it would be very difficult to learn from the animals if you cannot see them or offer them anything or anyway to teach the keeper. So the keepers tend to learn "only" from eachother. Then "only" believe in eachother. Is that whats going on here? Is that why I am hated? because I believe in the animals and not so much other keepers? So is this religious prosecution? hahahahahahaha that is seriously funny

Ok, enough of this, got to go to church, going hogging. Later

p.s. If you guys would talk more, then I would make these replys shorter, hahahahahahahahahaha

Frank,
My personal theory on why some individuals, especially hatchlings, need to be tricked is this.

Theyare most likely programed to take on certain prey items at different stages of their life. They are not constrictors, nor are they potently venomous so they need to be able to overpower their prey and eat it quickly.

Heck, some venomous species venom changes drastically from neonate to adult. It starts out being highly toxic to amphibs and becoming highly effective on mammals as the snake gets larger.

So, I believe their taste for what is food changes or broadens as the snake grows and matures.

You do bring up some good questions and topics from time to time Frank.

Thanks Gregg.

We do agree on that. Prey type does change as they grow and what they key in on (what is available to them locally).

But that does not cover why most neonates take to rodents quickly and a few do not.

If you could identify which ones are picky, by genetics, or build or health, that would make it easier. But it seems in overtly healthy individuals are often times picky.

I am basing my opinion with other reptiles I have worked with. And have produced large numbers of. Take Greybands and pyros, Both of which are suppose to be problematic(lizard feeders)

Yet, when I modified their conditions, I have very very few that would not take rodents right off. Will this work for hognose, I don't know, but has so far for me.(not big numbers)

I mentioned something about, how come folks hatch eggs, then take the neonates out and set them up in conditions that are way different then what they hatched in. To me, that is a good question and a good place to start. Lets talk about this please.

This would be a great conversation.

In the field yesterday, I saw the first signs of activity, tracks by a burrow. But no snakes yet. Will look again in a week or so.

Their enviornment, is so so dry and only going to get dryer before the rains start. Which is interesting, they reproductive activity takes place between now and the rains.

Their neonates hatch, after the rainy season. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

When I bring up something, there is good reason, its normally about something I read here that is questionable, To me. They are all good subjects of conversation(what this board is for).
Yet for Too many of you, its not good, and thats normally because you do not understand theres a problem, or your are prejudiced. You know, we do it this way, cause we do it this way. Which normally has little to do with the animals, and a lot to do with the keepers.

This dang thing I have against "recipe" husbandry, has nothing to do with reading how to keep these animals, or right or wrong. ITs all about losing track of what the subject is, the "recipe" or the animals. Most(many) here, thing the "recipe" is all important, and its simply not. The animal is what is important and the subject of the recipe/s.

THe big problem is, if anyone(me) questions the recipe, they are precieved as attacking the author. Which is totally wrong. Its not about the author/s, its about the subject, The hognose.

The problem here(and many forums) is people again confuse conversation. Whether its an attack of them(not) or to question husbandry(yes). So they attack me, all I ask is, question the content, its not about me, or you-alls, its about the animals and about their husbandry. Its also not about right or wrong. No offense, but we all are wrong most of the time, so why all the sensitive behavior. But again I rant. Thank you for not taking it personal. It IS about the hognose. Best wishes

Hey Frank,
Answering your first question, in my opinion, the reason why some hatchlings will take unscented rodent pretty much out of the egg is that maybe in some individuals, the instict to eat just might over ride what they shoud be eating. Thats what I think it can be. It might be as simple as that or I could be way off the mark.

I am not sure if this can be a genetically predisposed behavior or not. I know that the anmals I hold back for future breding projects are not always based on pattern and color. Part of what I look for as far as my own breeding stock is concerned is feeding responce. Does it make a differenc? No sure at this point but it cant hurt to try.

As far as older established individuals being "picky", again it could have something to do with the time of year and what is naturally available to them. One thing I love about snakes and other reptiles is their mostly instinctive behavior that can be seen even in artificial captive environments. This could be their hard wired instinctive nature showing. In my experience, established hog rarely become picky. Especially females. I would think they have more to gain from being opportunisticand feeding on just about anything they can overpower. Males on the other hand cn be a pain in te butt at times. Breeding season usually hinders their feeding. Most of my mature males will not eat until they have bred a female. Younger males seem to be less affected.

In regards to taking hatchlings out of their incubation temps and ptting them in conditions way different conditions.
Personally, I do not set them up in their rack draws (which are clear by the way LOL) until they have had their first shed. This happens anywhere from a couple of hours to a couple of days. I would imagin that once they hatchin the wild, they will go from where they hatched out into the big bad world where conditions will be vastly different from their hatching environment.

Recipe husbandry is unavoidable in captivity Frank. Everything is a recipe. We do not all always agree on what recipe is best. However, I think the things that work are what should be used and suggested. Your way, my way, Troys way and everyone elses way can differ. I think what is important is the animals we keep like you say. As long as they are "happy" and healthy, I personally believe that there are more than just a few ways to do things. Obviously, if something works well for me and someone whats to know how to keep their hogs, I am going to suggest they do as I do.

Hognose snakes come from different parts of the US as you know, and their environment and ques can differ slightly and dramatically. A hognose snake from Colorado may have different seasonal and feeding behviors than hognose snakes from Illinois. Which can be the answer to the first question as to why some individuals will eat rodents right out of the egg. A theory based on the fact that most of the captive hgnose snakes we are working with are the result of breeding hogs from different areas/States.

This is turning out to be a good conversation. Looking foward to your reply Frank.

>>>>Yes.....

.....I agree with it all....small items at first, venom changes as they get older....husbandry, genetics...all makes them pick what they want...

also...some mice smell different....I always thought lizard eaters would eat frozen thawed first due to them smelling more closely to lizard scent...yea...I know....some people use lab chow that is fish based protein...!...some use dog food...all kinds of odd smells can come from mice....

also....my thought....some babies eat let's say mice,some salamander, and some frogs...because if they all ate the same thing...they would all run out of food...so baby snakes in a single litter can be kind of pre-programmed to eat different food items...sometimes....

...
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........JY

....sometimes...snakes will not eat right off or at all due to the wrong conditions while incubating...example would be ball pythons (not hogs)...IF you have the eggs really humid and wet, they will swell and grow huge in size and full....thus making the inside pressure go up...too much pressure is bad...and babies can be actually stunted or just odd....and some die,some kink ,and some won't eat....too full is not always good....

too little water can cause the yolk sac to solidify and that means the embryo/neonate will have less food from it..sometimes to the point it will be skinny and even not want to eat after hatching....(this trouble was with balls and corns sometimes)......they can even get stuck inside the egg/to the shell and die.....

.........
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........JY

What you just said is common to all herp eggs. There is a range that is normal.

I am thinking, what you mentioned and how neonates are housed after they hatch is the primary problem. Thanks again

What problem are we facing when it comes to moving our hatchlings from the incubation container to a cage or bin that has the thermogradient? In the few hunded hogs I have hatched out, I have never had a hatchling not feed for me. Yes, some need scenting but scenting only last for 2 to 3 feedings and then they are taking unscented without fail.

I am interested to see your take on this Frank. Like you say, we are constantly learning. The day we refuse to learn or stop learning is the day we should stop keeping. All I have to offer you is my experienc keeping them in captivity. So far what I have been doing is working for me and I assume it is working for the snakes as well being that they are breeding season after season, feeding well, get through 10 weeks of brumation without a problem and all offspring start off strong. So far all ofspring I held back have gone on to produce nice, big, fertile clutches.

Thanks for the conversation Frank.

Hi Again, first and foremost, I have said all along, when I offer help, its for those who want it or need it. Not for folks that don't have a problem or don't want it.

What is key to hatching eggs is temps and humidity. What is key to raising neonates is temps and humidity. Its the same. only with neonates, the ability to gain more heat helps with a wider range of tasks. When taken out of the hatching conditions, there are normally placed in much lower humidity and also have no way to combat dehydration. Normally in nature, they prevent dehydration by staying in FULL CONTACT with a base neutral humidity. Which means in areas(home shelters) that prevent loss or gains in body fluid levels.

I talk about the snake, not the keepers.

Some here, have the "recipe" fine tuned and do not make mistakes. Which is fine. Others have problems. And/or may not know, the actual reason/s.

pesonally, I cheat, I like to setup reptiles in a way that its not about me making mistakes, as I will make them, hahahahahahaha. I like them to do the work. Hey call me lazy.

Again I will say, when I entered the world of hogs, I was very surprised to see problems, that are so curable. Like nesting and basic feeding problems. Egg binding seens fairly common. There is the common approach of treating and not preventing problems.

On the subject of feeding, you and others, rationalize all manner of reasons why your captives are picky, you make up possible reasons that relate to nature. When in reality, in nature they eat doorknobs or anything even resembling their prey. They have to, or they are dead and gone. We could talk about how it really works in nature.

ALso when reading questions from beginers, the answers where not answers, there was a lot of, it could be this, or maybe that, or its possible its something else. THe maybe's the could be's, the its possible, show a lack of understanding of the animals. It does not mean, some folks are not successful. I stated all along, you guys have produced GREAT animals. From reading this forum and recent books, there appears to be a basic lack of understanding of hognose or colubrids in general.(appears is a key word)

Also, I do not mention names as I do not pay attention to names of keepers and its not about a single keeper. Overall, as much success as you guys have had, there seems to be a lot of mystery.

Of course there are many approaches to doing just about anything. Colubrids are an easy subject, as far as reptiles go. They have been bred for many decades. I started line breeding and producing morphs, in the early seventies(many species).

There is this mystery to me about captive breeding, and it starts as simply as, the statement, I bred my X species. Actually, hopefully, they bred eachother, you the keeper did not bred them. They actually did what was natural to them. You the keeper only supported it.(the definition of husbandry, to support)

Many keepers, want control and to feel like they accomplished something. So they use methods that allows the keeper to make all decisions. Sweater box or recipe keeping is a great example of this. If you look at it, all that is natural to the captive is taken away. In extreme cases, there is nothing natural left. No dirt, no anything these animals can recognize as normal. None the elements that allow them to actually make decisions. Everything is done for them.

Please take a moment and think about that. How would you feel if all you understand is taken from you. All feels, smells, materials etc. Consider, there is no plastic in the lives of hogs in nature.

Then there is the approach of letting the animals do what they were designed to do. Or as much as you can.

One is all about people, the other is about animals(doesn't matter what kind)

I am odd, but these two approaches do not have to be seperate and in reality, there is no way to seperate them.

Consider, these animals have been growing up, pairing up, breeding and producing, since before civilized humans EXSISTED ON THIS PLANET. Yet they are treated as if they are incapable of making the simplist of choices.

Consider in nature, they obtain parasites with every meal, and have no problems, yet in captivity, you HAVE to treat them if one is suspected. In nature, they can heal from the most horrible of injuries, yet in captivity, they are prevented for a pin hole injury. I have found two individual snakes in nature, that healed and survived their backs broken in SEVEN places. Healed without a vet or any medicine. I found a greyband that had its back broken in three places and in two of those places, was cut in half and only held together by skin, and it healed and grew up. Without treatment.

I have found many varanids that survived burns that covered over 75% of their body, yet in captivity, a small burn often kills them. Looking at wild box turtles, you find a common scaring, where they were hit by cars, having the side connections broken and healed. Hit by cars. Yet in captivity they die for no reason????????????? Are you starting to get my point????? These animals have abilities and they are Extremely good at them. Let me think, they reproduce in all manner of conditions, hot, cold, dry, wet, droughts, floods, etc

In nature their immune system and ability to heal is exceptional, but not so in captivity?????

Yet, their natural abilities are ignored.

I commonly hear, but FR, we can never duplicate nature, so we don't. Dude, thats a cop out, Thats A or Z thinking. No one ever said, all or nothing. Use what you can. And without question, use what helps the health and welfare of the animal. They have the ability to take care of hognose, as they have done that for millions of years, and without humans to help them.

Ok, let me stop this rant and end with this thought.

You try reading this forum, or recent books on hognoses, then compare them to hognose in nature. I mean, look at the pictures of their habitat, then read what is unique to their habitat, then look at how their kept. Those are only a chapter apart, there is not one thing in the husbandry part that reflects the actual snake or its habitat, or its abilities.

If was was to be honest, folks seem to be all about morphs, and forgot the base, the hognose part. The hognose is before the morph. Morphs are about people, hognose are a animal. What about the hognose?

The keepers who want to fight me, must be only about morphs, as all they want is to make it about people and not the animals.

Gregg, I thank you for making it about the animals. And there is nothing wrong with morphs. In reality, morphs are hognose with a funny color and pattern(none phenotypic)

p.s. I just got back from hog habitat(the field) looking at captivity and nature will make a person crazy. Its about what I do not understand. I flat do not understand why they have to be so different.

Hi Frank,
That is a long but interesting post. Thans for taking the time.

I agree 100% about the humidity with hatchlings. In fact, I do keep my hatchling on the humid side untill they have put on a few grams. They are then kept dryer and all of my hogs, inclding adults are offered humidified hides (something generally not recommended by other keepers/breeders). I know, it is not very "natural" but it does allow them to exibit some level natural behavior. It allows them the choice of a humidity gradient so they can maintain their moisture intake. I have to say that I rarely, if ever, see my hogs drink. I personally believe that humidity gradients are just as important as temperature gradients.

I am also 100% with you on nesting. I offer large nest areas. When I find eggs, they are all in a group and almost never come into contact with the nest box. They are usually in a "pocket" dug out in the nesting substate.

I feel that dehydration and improper nesting is the cause of egg binding and it has little or nothing to do with the age and actual size of the female. So I do what I can with the space I have to prevent this.

As far as feeding issues go and the pickyness of some hatchlings go, I do not so much try to rationalize it as I do try to come to conclusions as to why it is so. Why are hogs different than kings or corns? The huge majority of hatchlings eat without fail. Why have I produced litters of gaboons and puff adders and never had a neonate refuse a meal? I never had to scent feed any other species I have bred. Only hogs. Genuinely looking for your input on this Frank.

None of us truely have the answers to some of the problems beginners run into. There are too many variable so I do not think people want to say this that and the other thing is indeed the problem. I think most like to take the diplomatic route with questions.

Anyway Frank, I have to admit, I do not keep hogs because of the morphs. I keep them because I think they are cool snakes. However, the cool morphs are the reason why I keep as many as I do. LOL.

Maybe that is the reason why I can not keep them all in huge cages with tons of options but I do my best to keep them healthy and thriving.

I agree 100% about the humidity with hatchlings. In fact, I do keep my hatchling on the humid side untill they have put on a few grams. They are then kept dryer and all of my hogs, inclding adults are offered humidified hides (something generally not recommended by other keepers/breeders). I know, it is not very "natural" but it does allow them to exibit some level natural behavior. It allows them the choice of a humidity gradient so they can maintain their moisture intake. I have to say that I rarely, if ever, see my hogs drink. I personally believe that humidity gradients are just as important as temperature gradients.
See, you have addressed the problem, it seems others have not. But why to you stop keeping them humid??? Is it because its harder to keep the cage clean? If so, thats not about the snakes, its about us keepers.

I am also 100% with you on nesting. I offer large nest areas. When I find eggs, they are all in a group and almost never come into contact with the nest box. They are usually in a "pocket" dug out in the nesting substate.

I feel that dehydration and improper nesting is the cause of egg binding and it has little or nothing to do with the age and actual size of the female. So I do what I can with the space I have to prevent this.
we again agree, and again you have addressed the issue, you can use large nesting in a seperate container. I use large storage boxes, made into cage/nesting and move the females in them when they go into shed. Helps shedding/nesting and effects female and egg health. After the first nesting, they remember and take right to them. The first event is a learning event and you will see some investigating.

As far as feeding issues go and the pickyness of some hatchlings go, I do not so much try to rationalize it as I do try to come to conclusions as to why it is so. Why are hogs different than kings or corns? The huge majority of hatchlings eat without fail. Why have I produced litters of gaboons and puff adders and never had a neonate refuse a meal? I never had to scent feed any other species I have bred. Only hogs. Genuinely looking for your input on this Frank.
ITs already clear you do not do "recipe" husbandry and address your charges as to their needs. About hogs, a couple of thoughts, first, hogs hatch out at 4 or so inches, which makes them meals for even a medium sized toad. As I mentioned, rodents in nature occur in a different pattern then captivity, which means, pinkies in nature are normally in a nest and that nest usually contains the mother and father, and wild rodents do indeed protect their offspring. So I would think(rationalize) its not a great plan for a hog to take pinkies until its much larger and can protect itself.

These types of behaviors are soft types, that is, they will not normally eat things like wood, or apples etc, with will investigate and consume fish frogs, some insects, birds, rodents, reptiles etc as food.

My concern is not with what individual snakes choose as prey or what is a natural prey item, its about how many here approach it(not you) Many resort to trickery FIRST. My recomendation and I am sure is yours as well, would be. Try such things as you did, humidity choices, different temps, cool spots, warm spots, better sheltering(security) etc, and do those before trickery. Also trickery means scenting with what seems very unnatural, tuna and salmon. As I mentioned, I offered fish to some of my hogs and they took them without hesitation. So fish may be a natural prey item.

None of us truely have the answers to some of the problems beginners run into. There are too many variable so I do not think people want to say this that and the other thing is indeed the problem. I think most like to take the diplomatic route with questions.
Here we disagree. You have told me how you adjusted your cages and those adjustments are the answer to many of the problems I was so surprised to see here.

Anyway Frank, I have to admit, I do not keep hogs because of the morphs. I keep them because I think they are cool snakes. However, the cool morphs are the reason why I keep as many as I do. LOL.

Maybe that is the reason why I can not keep them all in huge cages with tons of options but I do my best to keep them healthy and thriving.

The point is, I never said all or nothing, not with anything, not with cage size, or amount of options to choose from. What is concerning is the lack of learning. What shocked me was, some folks think of themselves as experts and say, hogs do this or that, while all along, they have no idea what a hognose is, They do nothing or try nothing. They keep the snakes in a way, you cannot see them, observe them, or learn anything about them. If they have problems, they resort to ANOTHER RECIPE.

My hope would be, they start with a larger cage and test different choices and actually learn the animals. It does not mean you cannot keep them in Rack systems. I have to say, Rack systems are not and were never meant for learning or understanding or ENJOYING snakes. They are purpose built to house large numbers in small areas. So with this is mind, Rack systems are not about husbandry(husbandry means to husband or support) Rack systems are not about support, they are about the bare minimum. My question is, do these wonderful animals(your words) deserve to always be kept at the bare minimum??????? See, I ended with a rant. hahahahahahahahahaha Thanks again Gregg

About hogs and rodents, or in context, neonate hogs and pink mice.

So far, and please understand, so far means I am only begining looking at wild hogs.

They, the hogs, hatch in the late summer, after the rains and at a time when rodents are past nesting. You may want to consider, there behaviors are built on native rodents, not invasives(house mice and Nor Rats) which reproduce year around.

Our native rodents are very seasonal and normally cease lactating as soon as it gets real hot(24/7) June normally.

So rodent pinks are not available as a prey item to neonate hogs, not here(borderline Westerns and Mexican hogs) What is available is toads, lizards, insects, etc. There hatching is just past toad emergence and at the time of lizards hatching. Of interest, in some areas, they feed on green toads and neonates do consume adult green toads(per. Obser.) I also tested Sonoran toads(get large and eat snakes) Neonates were reluctant to take Even tiny Sonoran toads, but adult hogs did take them. Neonates took to green toads and red spotted toads, which occur in other areas with hogs and not green toads. Lizards of many species are everywhere.

What is of interest to me is, WHAT DO THE ADULTS feed on in nature. In context, not what they feed on, but what prey items support success. Success in not to keep them alive, but what allows reproduction and weight gain. (progress)

From what I have seen so far, Toads are not effective to the adult hognose. Remember timing, toads do not emerge until the rains(in context the toads they consume) Which is after the build up and egg laying season.

I did observe adult females and they showed no gain of weight after the toad season.

With all other reptiles that I have successfully studied, there are very specific prey sources that allow progress. The sucessful individuals, learn these and depend on these. The make routines. That is, show up at the prey source, the DAY the source is ready, year after year.

Most of these snakes fall into two basic areas, Resident animals and transient animals. Residents have established territories. More importantly, established progressive food sources. Transients basically are roamers and have little in a way of established routines. If you look at them as street people, they move from place to place and feed on anything they can get into their mouths. They are seeking, stable conditions. In most cases, these are the walking dead. Their routines expose them to danger and predation.

Unfortunately, because they roam, they are the most often encountered and the most often used for data. Which is where a lot of poor information comes from.

Context is very important, in the field, you want to see what a GRAVID female fed upon to support her. You want to see what a old female that has produced successfully year after year, feeds on and when. In most field studies, there is NO context to data. Its just basic raw data and in many cases of no real use. Which means, it fails when applied.

For instance, we know hogs eat toads and such in the late summer, but what do the gravid females feed on??????.

After observing a few(100+/-)in the field, Its becoming obvious that there is more to it.

If I were a herper from another country, say Africa or S.A. I would pick up a hognose and say, Hmmmmmmmmmmm look an egg eating snake. As their build, shape, mouth, etc, all indicate a egg specialist. Even that enlarged tooth, its being questioned as a toad popper, hahahahahahaha. Do hogs eat eggs, oh heck yes.

Ever wondered why hogs are non directional feeders, that is, they don't worry about head first, hmmmmmmm thats an egg specialist behavior.

Consider, bird nests and reptile nests, are HUGE HUGE amounts of energy. And would indeed support progress.

Take gilas, another egg or nest specialist. Short thick animals with the ability to store lots of energy. Hmmmmmmmm a lizard hognose. Short thick, can store lots of energy. That means, they have short periods of time to consume a lot of energy and store that energy for long periods. Which again indicates nest robbers.

Also, hognose inhabit treeless praries, grasslands, wetlands, all areas of ground nesting birds and box turtles.

My goal this year is to see if I can support that theory in any way.

The problem is, the nesting season appears to be in the spring early summer and here its totally bone dry with very little snake activity on the surface. On the other hand, their habitat is an easy study, flat with very little in the way of cover. So if they move on the surface, I will see them. In otherwords, they are a perfect study for old people. hahahahahahaha Flat, none of that climbing up and up and up rocky steep canyons etc. YEA!!!!!!

Again thanks for the conversation. Best wishes

Too busy to post.

If I were a herper from another country, say Africa or S.A. I would pick up a hognose and say, Hmmmmmmmmmmm look an egg eating snake. As their build, shape, mouth, etc, all indicate a egg specialist. Even that enlarged tooth, its being questioned as a toad popper, hahahahahahaha. Do hogs eat eggs, oh heck yes.

Take gilas, another egg or nest specialist. Short thick animals with the ability to store lots of energy. Hmmmmmmmm a lizard hognose. Short thick, can store lots of energy. That means, they have short periods of time to consume a lot of energy and store that energy for long periods. Which again indicates nest robbers.

Frank,
I agree 100%. It has been proven that hogs do indeed feed on box turtle eggs pretty frequently in the wild, more so than they would on hard shelled bird eggs. Or so I think. I happen to believe that the eggs of reptiles might be a big part of adult hogs diets especially gravid females for the same reasons you think. Lots of protein and coloric energy in a devoloping egg. Not to mention calcium from the shells. More than you will find in the bones to toads and mice.

I also think the reason why hogs will eat so frequently in captivity is because of their natural instinct which is to consume as much as possible in the time they have during the active sason. I think it is quite the same for most temperate colubrids including corns, bulls, pines, garters and non-montain kings. The problem in captivity is most people keep them too cool so offering large amounts of food is not good for their figure. LOL.

The fangs for toad popping is not a very good theory. Th fangs are indeed used to envenom prey.

Also, the fact that hogs will bite and gobble their prey is a pretty good indication that they most likely rarely tackle prey that would put up much of a fight in the wild. That would be a bit counterproductive to their survival. So I understand what you are saying in regards to them not worrying so much about how they swallow their prey. Most of my hogs prefer to fold mice in half for some reason... LOL

Again, we agree on a whole lot. And the temp thing, you are so right, in the field, they are moving, when other heat loving snakes are not.

The reason I ask about birds is two fold. One, here, where I am working with them, Box turtles heck any turtles are not common. Fat less common the the hognose snakes. Which in theory would not work for box turtles. On the otherhand, there are lots and lots of ground nesting birds.

A friend emailed me a video of a neonate hog, attacking a hardboiled chicken egg. I mean attacking it like crazy, have you seen that?

So of course I tried pieces of hard boiled egg and yes they eat that(is there anything they don't eat)

So this year, I am hoping to find them using bird nests, eating eggs, etc and also finding ground nesting birds and offering eggs and nestlings to captives.

Again, their habitat is sandy, so I could find evidence of snake tracks in and around empty nests.

I was already aware there were more and more records of egg eating in hogs. I would just like to expand on that here and observe how it effects context in wild hogs.

Soft evidence like females are heavy after bird nesting or rodent nesting, etc. And skinny after toad season, which I have already observed( which does not mean much, as it could have been a poor season at this site, time will tell.)

One more naive question, how do hogs produce blood in their mouths, when bothers and do that death fainting behavior(its not playing dead, its playing awful nasty) Thanks so much

I remember that video (Fatty Ra the hognose? Who can forget a name like that) It got me thinking about my hogs when they were tiny last year. Out of the five hogs I've offered egg to (boiled, chicken), four investigated and three ate, mostly the whites. My PH axanthic went insane and ate yolks and all, but he was bloated for a day or two, due to the boiling, yet he looked quite the happy hognose. I wouldn't like to offer boiled again. I was thinking about raw quail eggs for a big female hog, but being raw I would worry about infection if it were to break in the mouth (not likely) and go down the wrong tube or something like that. If I do try it out again, I'll let you know.

Thanks for the inspiration you guys...
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You ever talk to me like that again...and I'll turn your balls into earrings. Understand?

Go for it.

Is this the video you were talking about?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF5xt_V4Ge4

Its my experience they normally are predetermined to feed on a range of prey items. Not a single item. As they become successful, will learn to specialize in that prey item, on a timely basis.

There indeed are snakes that are very very prey specialized. Hognose are not one of them. Hognose are not snail eating snakes that have extreme adaptions for such, or even some egg eating snakes. Hogs do feed on a wide range of prey items. Wider then many of what we call normal species.

Take pits. They are bird, rodent feeders, that include lizards when they are neonates. They never or rarely consume fish or amphibs. Many ratsnakes are the same, but they not only include lizards as neonates but will take frogs as well.

Hogs consume, amphibs, rodents, reptiles and their eggs and birds and their eggs. And earthworms.

I don't know what to say about your opinion that different members of one clutch are preditermined to feed on different prey items. It seems your thoughts are captivity based. If thats the case, then I understand how you can think that.

The problem is, these animals genetics are nature based(at this time)

Its my experience that will snakes are oppertunity based. That is, they hone in on what they have success finding. They are so adapt at this its amazing. I have tested this over and over with wild snakes.

I am still of the opinion that are husbandry is problematic and its so easy to see. In total fact, what we offer is a tiny slice of what they use in nature. So its very easy for me to see that what we recieve is only a tiny slice of their abilities in nature.

There is a simple test, Take your well feeding snakes and drop the temps a little at a time. What results, they slow down feeding, become picky, then stop feeding. What happens if you go the other way, They feed more and more aggressively, then once it gets too hot, stop and if you keep going, die. Remember too cold also kills them.

The reality is, neither heat or cold alone is what supports them, its the combination of the two.

Yet in captivity, its rare for anyone to test heat. Heat is good, as long as you have cool. Heat alone, is like cold alone, it sucks then kills. only heat kills quicker.

Anyway, I came here to see if there was any information available. Which means, I am not experienced.

So far, I have seen about 70 neonates in the field, and of that seventy, one consumed a toad(green toad) and 17 consumed lizards(eastern scelops and lesser earless) Of course, That information was not all inclusive(scientific) as I did not flush stomachs. If they gave it up, then I could tell, or palpate.

Of the adults, none have obvious bolus. Most were fairly skinny to average, none were real bad and none were really fat and healthy.

I was out yesterday and found tracks of one(got pics). And a dead box turtle with hognose food basking on it(eastern fence lizard)( got pics) Lots of lizards were active. no snakes of any kind.

Anyway, best wishes, oh I have not read your last reply

If you have picky eaters, what would you attribute as the cause of such behavior? You mentioned marginal husbandry...but what part of the husbandry do you believe causes the reluctance to eat f/t pinks?
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4.3.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

I will answer your question with a question, do you think its normal for snakes to be picky?

Let me put that in context, picky with something that is a prey item?

Do you know what a spotted night snake is? People, books etc, say they are lizard feeders and not mouse or rodent feeders. Everything about them seems to fit that. I have seen them eating lizards and even Med geckos on my porch.

Yet, I find them in my mouse room eating pinkies, even small night snakes? who would have thought?

I won't disagree with you. Specialized diets in species usually leads to extinction.

If you only eat potato chips, and the world runs out of chips, you'll have to find another food source, or die.

So yes, being a picky eater for a neonate snake is not good for survival. You need to be able to eat anything and everything so you can grow. As a young snake you can't garuntee you can find a particular prey source, so generalized is better.

It makes about as much sense as hatchlings that never eat.

I don't see an explanation for that either.
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4.4.4 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 Everglades Rat Snake

ITs easy to see, mammals are (just as an example for comparison) 90% suited to exsist. They come with a heater that keeps them at operating temps. They work in a very narrow zone when it comes to that operating temps.

They come with blankets and hold that heat in, and a body designed to not gain or lose heat, high mass to surface area.

They have instint to some small extent and are educated by the adults, to a high degree.

Snakes, do not have a heater, so they do not just exsist in an envoirnment, the enviornment is PART of their function. They have a high surface area to mass to gain outside heat, and they have behaviors, coil up, to raise or lower that surface area to mass. They also do not have a coat or blanket.

They have a high level of instint and a lower level of learning from the parents.

So we take them out of nature, remember, they are actually part nature as what supports their biology, basic function is the enviornment, take them away from their parents that teach them. WHAT, parents teach them, yup, Well the parents done teach them much, enough to get a head start. You know, put the nest right where conditions are favorible for survival, the right temps, the right moisture, and where the prey is, you know, like a flea laying eggs on a dog. Instead of in a bush or something.

The nest also allows them to "bond" or better yet "fix" or better yet, imprint on a scent that leads them to places of high support. Like where to go when its hot, or cold, or wet, etc. This is what we are currently learning in the field. In short, they depend on eachother, their lives are not random.

So we put them in conditions as soon as they hatch, that pretty much have nothing in common with where they would hatch, we take away all things that would have meaning to them, all scents(constantly washing them away) The scent of the crib(for us) And we wonder why they sometimes do not act right.

What is funny is the extreme ego and narsistic tendencies of people, all of us. If we don't see it, or understand it, it doesn't exsist. hmmmmmmmmmmm

Whats funny is, science never bothered to look at this, heck they never bothered to figure out why snakes have all these scent glands and pits and Jac organs. We found it easier to call what they do, "RANDOM" Which in this case means, I don't know. And worse, I don't care. And thats the point, if you cared, you would look into and figure out the reason for normal snakes to fail. Cheers