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We came up with an idea for housing gravid female hogs and other colubrids when keeping them in a rack system. Instead of offering a nest box, we are making the entire rack bin a nest box. It offers the female a much wider range of nesting options.

We are using a plastic lid that fits perfectly into some of our rack draws but you can use plywood.

We fill the rack bin with about 5 inches of cocopeat and cover it with the lid that we drilled a hole in so the female can enter the nesting area under it.

All you need to do after that is add your substrate of choice on top. Now the female will hae normal conditions on top and nesting conditions right below.

We wanted to do ths to make nesting a bit more natural for the female. I can not help but notice how many people use long spagnum moss and see how odd it looks to see eggs just getting scattered all over the incubation containers and rolling around. It just seems un-naural, odd, and out of place.

Here are a couple of pics.

Hi Gregg, I think I get in trouble here trying to be nice, instead of just saying it like it is, which also gets me in trouble.

So here goes, That method was done commonly in the late seventies, don't actually understand why its new now. It was a first step towards more stable nesting.

What your doing is GOOD and without question better then most.

Its a step in the right direction. But there is more.

More is taking it farther and then seeing if you can recieve better results. The question is, what is better results.

The problem with many is, There is no standard of results. A hatched egg is good. consider one hatched egg in nature leads to exstintion.

Theres a silly point, and that is potential. Theres genetic potential, that is the range of what that animal can do genetically, and its about all things within that individual snake, like growth, reproduction, longevity, and more, those are the ones we normally care about.

So, with reproduction, Each species, each individual, as a lifetime potential and a yearly potential. Even a clutch to clutch potential.

We all should know the minimum, ZERO. But what is the maximum and what is high and what is low and what is "normal" etc. The reproductive effort, in fact, reflects actual support. The closer to their potential, the better the support.

The problem I have here is, folks base normal on captive middle of the road conditions. So I ask, how is that normal? In nature, they always attempt to reach their maximum. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, and often they do not make it to next year. WHich makes your potential much more important on a yearly basis.

So whats the potential for a clutch of hognose, 0 to 35 or so????

In captivity, there should not be those limitations that prevent maximum. But there is. In fact, in most cases we provide the least we can, not the most. Or even average?

Sorry, dang it, so where does your method fit with that in mind?

The problems are about us not thinking the animals have needs or how those needs come about. We make it about our needs.

Do snakes in nature lay their eggs in lite? no they don't thats easy. Do they lay their eggs two inches in the ground, no, much deeper, but there are limited exceptions. How deep do they lay them? and why?

I could and normally go on and on, the point is, they normally lay deeper in the ground, they do so because it works, it works because the closer to the surface you go, the less stable it is. Both with temps and humidity.

The point is, your tubs are shallow. So thats what they get, hey? no wait, they do make deeper tubs, but dang, they don't fit into the exact spot. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm did anyone ever say they HAD TO, or is that just some human patterning thing? There are even deeper tubs and deeper then that. hmmmmmmmmm

While I am ranting, why do people think a nest box is a box that goes inside a cage. Particularly when the cage is smaller then a nesting area. I am feeling a bit like George Carlin. You know, all your stuff in a big box, then have a smaller box(luggage) then smaller yet.

The point is, nesting in nature is big. Its bigger then our normal box. The reason is simple, there must be enough suitable mass around the eggs to make sure the eggs survive for as long as it takes to hatch them. It also must be deep, hidden enough that a one legged wookpecker cannot get to them.

Then they nest in places that the neonates have a good chance of survival. The right conditions and prey available.

So I ask, do the snakes know you are going to take the eggs and put them in an incubator and know your going to feed their offspring?

So what most folks are doing is forcing the females to abort their normal natural survival instints. So I ask, do you think that all that is helpful to the animals to reach their potential??????? hahahahahahahahaha

Gregg, your doing great, but is that all there is to it? I will ask you that because you are good enough to do that, which means you care.

Most folks are happy to hatch an egg and if that is good enough for them, then so be it. But it surely is not about the animals, as they, the animals, want to reach their full potential and will do whatever it takes to accomplish that. All we need to do is support their efforts.

Thanks again Gregg, your doing great. I do not mean to be offensive, I only want folks to think. And that thinking part is to decide what are restrictions placed by us, in the way we think. Then compare that to what they actually do.

In your case, its far better them what most do, but how does it compare to what the animals actually do. Consider, what they do in nature is their normal. Then consider, what they actually do is based on what is normal to them. Not what is normal to us. Consider, what restricts them in nature is normally nutrition based(finding enough food) Everything else is a realitive constant. Of course in dryer areas like deserts, water is also a variable. Best wishes and thanks for putting up with me

Honestly Frank, I am not offended by you. I have to admit, I was at first. But now I am seeing the bgger picture behind you post and can read between the lines and figure out what you are getting at. I have quite enjoyed the last few days conversing with you instead of arguing and taking offence to your wording. The simple truth of it is, we are all learning and it is good to get different views and it is always good to think for ourselves instead of having the answers gift wrapped and handed to us.

As far as the queation of "is this all I can do for my snakes?", the answer is no, but like you said, it is a step in the right direction. I try to do the best I can with the space I have. If I only kept a few hogs, their setups would be much different

And, as far as this technique being from the 70's and it becomming new all of a sudden goes, I guess certain techniques were replaced by simplicity and over the years good ideas got lost. I am not saying that there were not some good ideas that replaced the old ones, but I think some things are mad to easy for the keeper which in turn makes things harder for the kept.

To be honest, I have always had a problem with usig long stemspagnum moss as a nesting material. It akes no sense to me. I can not see how when eggs are scattered and rolling around it is considered proper or good nesting. However, people who do use this method do still get good results so I never mention anything about it. I do know a couple of my hog buddies have changed their nesting a bit for the better.

Me and John are testing this out this season on a few gravid girls. A little side by side testing should be good. Maybe my study group will be large next season. LOL. I expect the reslts to be good.

Thanks again, Its very difficult to talk when keepers make it about keepers. In person, they would have to shoot us to shut us up. And its because we are all the same. And its not about you or I. Its about the animals.

When I came here, I did explain, where my direction was based. I never said anyone had to change or do anything different.

That said, I would go slow, as you said, test a few and retest them. I say that because as with everything, there is a learning curve. Also, one clutch is not going to help a female that has had to hold her eggs.

The best test subjects are virgin females tested side by side. That way, any prexsisting problems will be eliminated.

The key is deep dark and of course the right temps. I already explained what worked well for me. I will again if you wish.

The point is, over time we were able to repeatedly have females deposit eggs successfully, the day after shedding and commonly within a few days. That allowed the females to not become dehydrated and return to feeding quickly.

It allowed females to easily multiclutch and even grow and multiclutch at the same time. As in, no stress on the female.

Its a human assumption that reproduction should be hard on a female, so we think negative health should occur after laying eggs, and the female must recover from that.

The reality is a little different, normally females do not show any illeffects from reproduction, as it is a normal fact of life that they do. If it causes problems, then something is wrong.

In the field, most females do not even look slimmer after laying. of course, during poor years, it can be stressful and even cause death. Again, we in captivity should be able to avoid harsh conditions. It can occur, but its extremely rare.

As you can tell, its not about knowing, its about learning. That is what I am interested in.

So what would happen if your crossed a vinesnake with a hognose???? It could happen.

>>We came up with an idea for housing gravid female hogs and other colubrids when keeping them in a rack system. Instead of offering a nest box, we are making the entire rack bin a nest box. It offers the female a much wider range of nesting options.
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>>We are using a plastic lid that fits perfectly into some of our rack draws but you can use plywood.
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>>We fill the rack bin with about 5 inches of cocopeat and cover it with the lid that we drilled a hole in so the female can enter the nesting area under it.
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>>All you need to do after that is add your substrate of choice on top. Now the female will hae normal conditions on top and nesting conditions right below.
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>>We wanted to do ths to make nesting a bit more natural for the female. I can not help but notice how many people use long spagnum moss and see how odd it looks to see eggs just getting scattered all over the incubation containers and rolling around. It just seems un-naural, odd, and out of place.
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>>Here are a couple of pics.
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Cool idea Gregg. Another way to do it would be to use some thin plexiglass cut to fit the tub better. I might give it a try on a few girls this year as I have some plexi laying around.

How tall are your tubs? Mine are only 5". The 7" bus tubs would be better or even some of the large (tall 12" Iris sweater boxes. One idea maybe to have a 5-10 tub rack just for laying girls. Once they lay there eggs move them back into there home tub.

What's your thoughts on humidity now? I once thought humidity was a bad thing but have started to think it's not so bad if you have good ventilation. Kind of like with chameleons. They need higher humidity but very good ventilation.

Luckily with my FB racks I have very good ventilation so I've been playing around with using cypress and coconut husk mix for substrate.

Just some random thoughts.
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Hognose, Sand Boa & Ball Python Morphs

Greg Bennett | www.hognose.com

....nice method...and it works...

don't matter how deep it is...they are under something and they feel secure....

moist enough...they like it...and it works...

milkheads do the same thing...like a foot deep the one guy goes...I don't understand the wasted space but whatever floats the world....go for it...

as for NEED to be deeper....not really...

IN the Wild...we found empty eggs (hatched ) inside railroad ties...the centers rot out and snakes and skinks lay, and hide in them....found milks and racer eggs , copperheads use them too.......they lay where they want.....worst example ever was a racer....laid it's (23? I forget) eggs right ON a lawn....yes...right in the middle of the yard....then she hid under a piece of plywood at the edge of the yard.....you'd think she'd have laid anywhere under anything rather than out in the middle of a cut lawn...(they all hatched for the guy that found them, so they were fertile)...

(I used empty gallon jugs with cutoff tops , filled with peat and sphagnum moss for years....for any species that fit in them)...

....Oh...my thought on the method if using plexi....cut it so it does NOT fit the box....cut like 2 inches short...so the female has a wider area than a hole....holes work...but scared me for years.....
.....they do what they want.....
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........JY

I am trying the same thing this year, set up a tub in the rack (5"deep tub)a few weeks ago. I mixed some sand, organic soil and peat moss to make a nice sandy mulch, added a bit of moisture, a piece of cork bark and put in the rack. I've been testing temperature differences across the tub at different depths. I have put two gravid females in(separately and both in shed now) and they really seem to be comfortable in there. I will be interested to see if each female seeks out a similar temp/humidity area of the tub.
I have seen pics, From FR if I'm not mistaken, and eggs seemed to be deposited just below the hide that was provided. I thought the post said that eggs were always found just below surface and under the hide. Don't remember seeing them dig any deeper then they had too? I would think that if we can figure out the desired substrate temp/moisture that the depth would not matter much as long as they have enough cover to be comfortable. It would make sense that in nature they would need to go deeper for both consistent conditions and comfort. Either way, if I can get eggs that have not been rolled around I will be happy. I'm also hoping that is will help with my egg eater females!!

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Steve Perry
facebook.com/StevePerryReptiles

Please understand, what I have settled with(not the ideal or best) Is about 12 inches if substrate, not five.

I place glass or lexan pieces at different levels, starting at about five inches down. I do not limit myself to any number.

with different species, there are different approaches. Like some species like to lay eggs between two hard layers, others under one layer, and yet others prefer to make chambers.

To make it clear, How close you get to what they prefer is what relates to how much benefit you will see.

What I do, does not mimic nature, but it has resulted in results more like what is natural. The more you take away, the less benefit you will see.

Sadly you cannot rationalize this, I stated, I do recieve great eggs the day after shedding, more commonly within five days. Thats if I support it RIGHT. If I do not apply the principles correctly, I will not see any benefits. If you or others, minimize what I did, you too will not see the results I recieved.

The key to this approach is to understand what your trying to achieve, What are these animals looking for? That is what is important, HOW you do that can be done in a million ways, but all the ways must meet the needs of the animals.

They seek darkness, They do not want air movement, that is any oppertunity for dry air to effect the eggs. And of course the right temps and effective humidity.

Depth required is based on those needs. How deep they use is based on temps, humidity and lite.

In some parts of the country(habitat type) like here, they normally deposit eggs fairly deep, here the surface is hot and dry, so they go deep enough to find the right temps and humidity.

In northern parts of the country, the deeper you go the cooler it gets, so they cannot go deep. In other parts, the ground is wet, so they find mounds and raises and must lay fairly shallow to find the right temps and humidity.

But no where do they lay them in light, open view. You know, like bird eggs in a nest. In all cases they lay them in total darkness.

The problem is human rationalization. You think you can offer the right conditions, in a shallow tray, like five inches, heck you can even make it dark. And your right, the problem is, snakes do not rationalize like humans.

For instance, you understand the conditions needed, They may only understand how to find those conditions.

One more thing, they recognise a good nesting area, by smell. The perfer to nest in a place they already have nested in. Or their parents nested in, or even other snakes nested in.

You measure temps with a heat gun or thermometer and humidity with a hygrometer, what do they use???????? How do they know what is right? and to such a fine degree, to the degree and without tools???????

I have a question, why don't hognose nest in a tree or tree stump, I am positive they could find the right conditions and such and they do exsist where hogs live. And other snakes do use them, like ratsnakes and such. Why don't they?

The point is, they do not think or rationalize like you do. They also do not know what they want is suppose to fit in a five inch deep sweater box.

you also should understand, dang, they do make racks with deep boxes, and no one said I cannot use them. Or make my own box that is closer to their needs when what you have now.

Also, what I did was make a bad copy of what they do in nature, what your thinking of doing is making a bad copy of what I did. I recomend, if your going to make a bad copy, take me out of it and do what I did. Make a bad copy of what they really use and need. Best wishes

So, do you have an average depth from your experience? Have you figured out if the depth relates to the humidity or temperature at that particular depth? I would love to hear you details along with your ideas. This would be very interesting info, and it is what I would like to figure out

Darkness, temperature and no air movement are obvious and easy to maintain at any depth. Humidity and maybe perfect temp may not be as obvious or easy to maintain.

For example, my tub is solid grey and blocks light well with lid on, add to that enough soil to burrow a little ways with a large piece of cork bark and it will be very dark. This particular rack is plastic without screen lids so ventilation is poor. This allows the humidity to remain steady for a longer period. Currently I do not have a hydrometer that will work for soils (air only) so I have to go off feel. The tub has different levels of humidity spread throughout and the temps range from 78 to 86.

I do understand that I am basing my start point at what has been commonly used in herpetaculture for incubating eggs and it may be flawed. My hope will be to see if I can get eggs laid neatly, not being eaten and if I can find a pattern using multiple females in the tub. I would love to build a 2' X 6' box 2' deep, fill it in sections with different soil types, use multiple heat sources to create several options at different depths, plant some grass, lay several hides and see what they choose. This just won’t fit in the space I have to work with.
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Steve Perry
facebook.com/StevePerryReptiles

Hi Steve, please do not take this bad.

You already seem to be prejudiced as to some idea of great nesting. You know, your lawn and multiple heat sources etc. Which I don't think has much to do with anything.

You have to decide what you want for your animals, a blend that with what your willing to support them with. The right answer is what you want.

Good nesting improves health, and increases production. Which means, your animals can make more offspring and be healthier then with poor or marginal nesting. I would think thats a good thing.

If you have no concern for either the mental welbeing or physical health, then don't worry about it. If your fine with what your doing, then please keep doing it.

If you have a problem, like you mentioned, the egg eaters, then you may want to consider some changes.

To cosume your own eggs is not normal. I think everyone can agree on that.

What is normal, is it normal to consume your own dead or infertile eggs?? The answer is yes. That is common, in nature it would be a waste of energy to drop infertiles(little bags of energy or eggs that died. Eggs can and do die. So they eat them.

So you may want to find out if the eggs are dead or infertile. If they are, then its normal.

I know a little bit about nesting because, I have tested it on thousands of clutches with many many many species of reptiles over many decades. All the while studying these same reptiles in the field.

I can say, there is a relationship with depth and temps/humidity, there are other factors as well. There is also instintual nesting behaviors. Which may override or sway temps/humidity. SImply put, there is individual preference.

Lastly, that instint, it really needs a actual difinition. Its a driven behavior that is fine tuned with actual life. That is, its improved with experience. Or worse, ignored with not possible. That is, Abort the eggs and save yourself(the water bowl)

Such behaviors are very strong as it impacts the survival of the species in a direct way. That said, each population may include several methods of nesting they could practice.

The good part is, this(captivity) is not nature, and all you need to do is solve your problem, or fulfill your curiousity. As in, what do these animals actually do?

Which means, you do not have to go to extremes, Take small steps and learn.

Look at your setups, then look up a picture of their natural habitat, then think. Thinking is the fun part.

Those animals are evolved to their habitat. Oh except some morphs color and patterns.

I like your approach, some species like pyros, both comunnial nest and nest singlarly. Don't know about hogs yet.

I will be leaving in the mourning to work in HOGLAND. building exhibits, right where hogs are found. Good luck, best wishes and update your results.

I'm not taking it bad, a little confused by some of your comments, but not offended.
So do you have temp or humidity readings on captive nest choices that you have provided?
Instinct to dig may be true, but without data I would think that to be an assumption. No doubt I am making assumptions and I'll let you know how it works out.
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Steve Perry
facebook.com/StevePerryReptiles

Steve,
I believe you will see a marked difference. I know that I have obtained 3 females that were "habitual egg eaters". I took them knowing this. I can say that not one of them attempted to eat their eggs last season. I offered huge nesting and offered cocopeat instead of long stem spagnum. Eggs were properly nested and not eaten.

My field experience is not quite as extensive as Franks. However, I have seen numerous clutches of nested snake eggs. The huge majority are found in rotted tree stumps and fallen logs. I have never seen a snake nest burried underground. Admittedly, none were hognose eggs. I would think hogs would use log hollows, rotten logs and stumps, and abandoned burrows as nesting areas like most other North American colubrids do..

Hi Gregg, I just spent a few days in hognose habitat. Working on herp displays. Its in southwest new mexico.

I say, In the ground, because there are no other options except IN THE GROUND. No trees, or anything above ground level.

Also, its to dang hot anywhere near the surface. So eggs are dropped in the ground. Also, there is no shade as the bushes are nearly leafless until after the rains(if they occur)

I have seen westerns in central New Mexico and its the same there, NO TREES. OR rotting anything. In many cases, theres nothing but dead grass and very little of that.

The thing is, I am not guessing and for good reason, There are no other options.

Next time I go there i will post some pics, and then you will have to agree, hahahahahahahahahaha. Best wishes

A couple things and some is without question confusing.

First, I have taken tens and thousands of temps.

Which leads to this, temps are not an exact, in fact, they will nest in a wide range of temps.

The possible confusing part. The act is far far more important. WHich means, finding nests and observing their depth is first and foremost. ITs real, its fact.

If you would bother to offer deep nests, say 3 or four feet deep. With a range of suitable choices, you would see that they nest as deep, which means secure, as possible.

It seems to me you are only looking at it in terms of what you understand and thats temps. But that is not what they are looking for when nesting, not alone. Of course there must be the range of temps that allow eggs to hatch(high 60's to mid 80's). Whats important to them is more then that. ITs about mass. Mass in temps and humidity, means the conditions will be constant for the time needed to hatch the eggs and raise the neonates. The site must be safe from predators.

What is interesting is, I say these things because I do have the data, and you seem to question that, and you don't have any.

Over the years I have learned that many folks are afraid to try anything. Sadly, I cannot stop testing, that is what's interesting to me.

Thank you for the conversation. I will post some habitat pics later in the year. Best wishes

Hi Frank,
What about abandond rodent burrows? I am sure ther is no shortage of them in hognose country? Based on your field experience, do you think hogs can be utilizing them for nesting?

Hmmmmmmmm I do not see snakes nesting in rodent burrows. You use the word abandon. I am not sure that happens. Rodents constantly use burrows, make more, etc.

Hogs have their own burrowing system. They dig very well. They also live is soft soils.

What is funny is, I commonly see their burrows pop into other burrows.

Rodents and snake nests do not mix. Reptiles normally dig their nest chambers, then if not attending the eggs, cover the burrows and hide the entrances. Where I am doing my tracking, they normally go from a snake burrow to another snake burrow. You know, the burrow entrance is the exact size for the snake to squeeze in. There are also cases of larger burrows that have hog burrows in them. Can't tell you if its the cart or the horse. The rodent dug up a snake burrow, or the snake is using a rodent burrow.

Whats missing is, they normally cover all entrances, that is, they do not leave an entrance so other animals can smell and consume their eggs.

I cannot say they never use them, Its just not my experience and not very logical.

If you test deep nesting in a big cage, you will see there is no need to start a burrow or use an old burrow, they simply go down in the earth as if they live there. Oh wait, they do live there.(humor)

The closets population to me occurs in relatively harder soil them most, but its the very extreme part of their range, and they are not all that successful there. In those areas, they occur in farmland(plowed soils, and raparian, next to creeks.

There is a lot to learn about these guys, can't say what they are doing. Best wishes

Hi Gregg, let me try again, I cannot tell you what all snakes do, or all hogs do, but I can tell you what the ones I work or have worked with do.

Theres something odd about field herping, compared to captive husbandry, and its apparent with this and the thread down below on nesting with Steve.

That is, in the field, you do not prejudice data or observations. That is, if you observe a clutch of snake eggs. Say buried 14 inches from the surface, in a chamber, with no tunnels or exits that are apparent. That observation is IMPORTANT, its real, its fact, its our base.

If you can add data, such as, X temps, X humidity, slope, angle. Elevation, direction of exposure, etc. Those are also fact and add to the observation.

To prejudice data is to assume the snake did this or that for various reasons, that is prejudicing the data, as we actually have no idea if those prejudices are valid or not

. The observation is what it is. To say, it could it be this or could it be that, is also prejudicing data. AS you gather more data, you normally see variation, like the temps being Xplus3 or X minus 4, from the original observation. Same for other data points. Also, as numbers of observations are gathered, you will see a range of these conditions And the important part, certain patterning that is not related to conditions. Like depth, some of these things are prejudiced by the snake(instint)(set behaviors). Nearly all behavior is influenced by both, inherent behavior and conditions, plus experience.

Whats important is sometimes its not about the data, its the act or event, those are first and foremost. The data is suppose to help understand the act, event, behavior. But the data is not suppose to override the act/event/behavior. Or tell it what it is. Data is to help us understand.

In the thread below, with snakes and hognose, in particular, do in certain conditions and go to certain depths, can be instintual.

They can be forced to change those instintual behaviors by exsisting conditions. That forcing or changing of set behaviors, has a range and the amount of that range causes stress on the animal. Sooner or later the stress will cause the snake to fail, or avoid those conditions. This prejudices the snakes. Which means, they avoid areas, materials, events, etc that are stressful to them. This makes them prejudiced to certain conditions, soils etc.

They pick very particular places to nest. The reasons can be measured to a point. But there are many many more reasons. The actual available places to nest are abundant and widespread, by OUR STANDARDS, but not by their standards. They are very particular as to where they nest.

In field studies, things like you guys like, are easy, temps and humidity cause this or that. The problem is, that does not work, that is a simplistic human outlook based on what we think is important. Not whats important to the animals.

THere is now evidence that what is important is HISTORY, more then conditions. That is, most individuals attempt to nest, WHERE they hatched. Its based on simple history. ITs also a simple theory. The individual lived to reproduce, therefore what and where it hatched was chosen and repeated. In otherwords, one value as to why they do what they do is because it worked for them. Our data is an attempt to explain why it works.

That data, often does not. .

Which is what bothers me about You and Steves comments. Both of you commonly use the, it could be this or that, or the other. Again, anyone can say that, But all of us already understood anything is possible, whats important is what is actually the case. Or probable, Not whats possible.

About testing nesting. You guys seem to think that adding a couple inches is a test. I am not sure there is any value in that what so ever, at least in how it relates to the animal. Its only of value if it solves your exsisting problem, or increases your productivity.

If you would test nesting that has a depth past what is known that is all supporting the proper temps and humidity. Then what they chose is a valid test.

My base value was obtained from field experience. All colubrid nests were within 2 feet of the surface. Which supported a test up to 2 feet. Varanid nests commonly exceed two feet, even with small species.

In general, species such as our small lizards nest shallow, as do turtles. They hatch relatively quickly, 24 to 45 days, snakes a little deeper, hatch from 45 to 90 days. Varanids nest much deeper, hatch from 65 to 414 days.(pers. Exper)

There is a pattern to begin testing based on field observation. Yet in captivity, you folks(on average, not all of you) base your approach on a shoebox/sweater box etc. Not on the animals. To me, that makes it about you and nothing to do with the animals. Which is fine. You can do whatever you like.

But it will cause a problem between you and I. As I do not work from captive based systems.

I understand, that your only reason to improve nesting is to help you. It would help you more, if you actually understood what was NORMAL to the animal. If you understood that reproduction is NOT stressful to the female, and does not cause weight loss, and does not cause egg binding. And they do not eat their eggs, then you could understand how to fix the problem.

So many folks say, FR I tested what you do and it did not work. What they did was add two inches thinking, that is what I did. Sorry, if you want to understand why I say what I say, you actually should test to my standards. And that is based on field observations. So if you tested two feet of suitable materials and temps/humidity. Then you can observe the results I speak of. Then you can take away from that to find an condition that fits your own intentions

Sorry for the rant, but no good would come from being nice and saying, yea, adding two inches to your base shallow shoebox, is going to help you understand the animal. ITs not. Test the other extreme, as well. Then compare. Sorry and thanks and no offense. hahahahahahahahahaha yes, I just returned from the field, and it makes me crazy. hahahahahahahahaha

Frank, That is quite possibly the best post you have made,at least that I have read.
Thank you
Please understand that you on several occasions have asked some of us to take your word on something "just because" without sharing the valuable info that you have. you can't blame me for questioning you. We have never met and until this last post, i have never seen anything to substantiate your opinions. This post gave me something that made me say "that makes sense" and thus more likely to agree. It's not just you either, I don't use a lot of info commonly found on hognose care sheets because of my own observations. I like to understand "why" I am doing what I'm doing and not just do. I may never fully understand the "why", but I have to try.
I do have other questions that I think your field studies are going to miss though and that is that your study groups appear to all be in the same harsh environment.
Do you think it possible that in other areas, the average data of; depth, temp & humidity levels would be largely different? For example, the date from your area may be that depths average, 14" to 23" with a temp range of 60 to 80. Do you think, or would you be surprised that in a northern region those numbers could be 6" to 16" with temps ranging from 70 to 85?(This is an honest question, not a set up)
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Steve Perry
facebook.com/StevePerryReptiles

Hi Steve. Please understand, I do not ask anything of you, except to read what I report and think about it. No more then that.

If you did that, maybe you would decide to test some of what I offer and see how it works for you.

You do understand, all data in all books, is never always right. Its always information at the time and at that level of understanding. The base of all scientific papers is to be challanged. Not believed. To believe is religion, not science or biology. And surely not ethology. Behavior is fluid and changes quickly. And has a range of reactions to a single impulse.

My recomendation is to test deep nesting, as that covers all populations, even ones that nest shallow. And yes of course, there are populations of hogs and other colubrids that shallow nest because they are forced to. The question is your stock, those?

Also, deep is also about mechanics. That is, IF you have 18 inches or more of substrate, then moisture goes down, humidity goes up. It allows for a greater range of choices in that area.

The truth is, Without testing the range, you have done nothing. If you test with depth and they pick depths that fit your cages, then great. But if they make deeper nests and stop eathing their eggs, you have learned something.

Also, there is more to it then depth. They without question have many nesting criteria. Like materials, snakes tend to use very specific sites, as to rock, plant material, soil types, etc

Get all those right, then you will start to see what these snakes do. Good luck