Reptile & Amphibian Forums

From reading the thread below, I have to question what folks think natualistic means. And please, its not about right or wrong.

Its appears to me that that term has many meanings to keepers and frankly, I am not sure how that it got that way.

I think there is a whole lot of confusion. Naturalistic may mean, not purchased in a pet shop or online. Again, I am not sure.

IF I would thinking about Naturalistic, I would think about what is NATURAL, to the specific animal and in this case hognose.

Pick up any field guide or hognose book that talks about their natural enviornment and it will tell you hognose are specific to certain types of soils. While I often see conflict with books, HOGNOSE are very soil specific to certain types of soils.

I think, sandy, loaming, soft, all come to mind when looking at hognose. You know, something that allows that nose to work.

If I were thinking about hognose(and I have been) and setting them up naturalistically. The first thing I would look at, because of their physical adaptions, is what kind of soil and how much of it(depth)

Then I would think about how they use it. Again, Gregg hit the nail on the head. Hognose make their own cover. In my field experience, they live in a homeycomb of burrows, and dig more when needed. Also, in my area, they spend aprox 95% or more of their lifes living, breeding, feeding, shedding, thermoregulating etc, in these burrows. Only coming to the surface to move across areas that they cannot travel thru(underground)

Right now in the field they are paired up, copulating or getting ready to copulate and they never come to the surface. The great part about hogs in nature is that sand thing, they leave tracks, so if they use the surface, I will know about it. And so far, at my site, there are no tracks. In fact very few snakes of any species are surface active yet this year.

I guess I should take some mirco habitat shots and post them, so you can see what is NATURAL to them.
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Good luck and best wishes

Frank, i am glad you finally posted. first off, i will give you a brief look at who i am and a little about me. my name is Rick, i have been keeping and breeding reptiles(mostly snakes) for over 26 years now.i excelled at science and health(for what it is worth) i started off at nine with a ball python. at twelve i bred my first colubrids(corns and a few kings). i moved up to boa constrictors. at fifteen i got a chondro, which at the time were hard to find and even harder to keep alive...this topic i will get into just a bit.

everyone except trooper told me that i would not keep them alive...well, the most obvious thing to do to keep them alive, was to look at their natural environment...common sense to me. well, i studied it like an addict(actually, i was)...i did pretty well with him. i got two more females...when i was seventeen, i got eggs...they all ended up dieing, but the next year, i hatched out fourteen of twenty eggs. the rest of the story for another thread, but my point, my success was from studying the natural habitat and with help from greg, trooper, and rico.

when i use the term 'naturalistic' that is EXACTLY what i mean...as close to their natural environment as i can possibly get it. i think i do a pretty good job most of the time...my animals reflect it as well. i do not know it all, i hope i never do(and im sure i wont), because learning is the most fun thing about the animals i keep, aside from that, watching and interacting with them. i know some, but not much about the hognose in the wild...this is where i ask for help, and you Frank, can help me here. i also think Greg, and other successful keepers can also help. i love big, naturalistic enclosures, i KNOW the animals benefit from it, and i have seen a lot more 'natural' behavior...or at least what i believe would be natural(simply because a lot of the animals i keep...i have not been fortunate enough to observe in nature, especially to a long term observation). i have used rack systems in the past, and although i would rather have my animals in a naturalistic environment...i do not hate on or judge those folks that do use racks...because as a former 'breeder', i understand that any number of animals are very hard to provide large, naturalistic enclosures for...just the space alone is not do~able for almost all keepers. this is why i am more of a 'glorified hobbiest' than a breeder. i do love to produce my own animals and i LOVE morphs...but i would rather have several 'chunks of nature' than a few hundred animals. i just sit down and get lost in my enclosures, for hours at a time...and my wife often asks how i just sit and stare at my snakes...she does not understand that even to this day, they simpley fascinate me...and i am in awe of them. and the day i quit learning or stop being fascinated by my captives...i will find another hobby. i love keeping snakes, and breeding is fun too...

i plan on breeding hognoses, but i believe keeping them is going to be incredible. from what i have read from ALL keepers, reguardless if they are just that, keepers...or breeders, these animals are just awesome. they have charicteristics and habits that is not often found in any reptile, let alone most snakes. i have had several w.hognoses...but i kept them less naturalistic type setups than i will be this go round...and i am very excited to get some of these animals. it will be a nice change from my boas and retics...and i wont have to have room sized enclosures for one or two animals!

i was thinking of a mixture of about forty percent sand, twenty five percent natural top soil, twenty five percent peat, and ten percent vermiculite as a starting base for my soil content....how does this sound to you? i am also going to be adding certain types of mild bacteria and isopods....to make a bio active substrate. i have used this for several other species of snakes, and had great success...what are your feelings on this?

i am going with about 12 or so inches of soil, with some potted plants(with pea gravel around the base with a little bit of soil on top of that...to keep the hogs from uprooting them). i am also planning on some wood structures, small hollow logs, maybe some rock formations(i know to make sure to be careful of crush hazards, but with soil this deep, it wont be hard to accomplish).
i am also planning on a little bit of leaf litter and maybe pine needles for asthetic appeal(for me!!!)...and who knows what else...this is just my initial idea...any other ideas would be greatly appreciated!

i love naturalistic display enclosures...LOVE them.

and to both you Frank, and to Greg. i want to thank you both for your previous threads and posts back and forth. i have already learned a lot from both of you...i know you two dont always agree, lol...but i think you are both very knowlegable and you both have a LOT to teach and offer others(as well as other keepers on here)...i will say, i see points that you both have made, and i think that a few times you(Frank) may have taken some things differently than how Greg said them(or at least meant them)...and vise versa...but you guys are both very knowlegable and have a lot to offer keepers of all levels...thanks for your contributions! you may disagree on certain things, but you both still keep it professional, and i can appreciate that!

Hi Rick, first off, thanks for the compliments. And, I think Gregg and I agree on nearly every major point, of course sometimes it takes a while to get to that point. hahahahahahaha. There are others here that I do not get along with. And mostly because I have you outlook. From nature, to morphs, to rack systems, etc. I agee with you.

Our difference is, I always take nature first. And I always went to nature, all over the world, to see what I was interested in. And I live where snakes are EVERYWHERE and many many kinds. Oh and lizards to.

About your soil, the pics I posted are what they live in. There is no need to add all this and that. All your doing is taking away from what they choose to live in. Across the board, hogs use sandy loamy soils and where then shelter, there is little to no plant matter. Understand soils and soil types is a pain in the back side.

Please do not prejudice your approach with plants. The mix you stated was most likely based on what you think is good for plants, holds moisture etc. Which is absolutel wrong for hognose and most snakes. The key is also a pain in the arse to understand, DRY, draining soils with humidity. humidity not moisture.

If you really want to understand that, try putting a couple of inches of vermic or perlite in the bottom, then placing a piece of hard plastic with lots of small holes in it. The secure it so that the snakes cannot dig into that.

You could drill some drain holes about an inch up the sides so that it holes some water, but does not allow water to reach the substrate.

Place a sandy soil over that to your 12 inches or more level. If you use draining soils, when you add water to the cake, it drains into the subfloor, then HUMIDITY percolates up. This gives you dry and humid. Its all about the humidity raising up into the substrate.

THIS IS HOW NATURE works and the areas hogs live it works. They live in wet type areas, grassy, marshy, edge of wetlands, YET the mircohabitat is dry. In nature it rains, water goes down. Then humidity perculates up. I could go on about how this effects snake hunting, but I won't.

Hogs are not a snake of dense ground cover, or tall plants or rock outcrops. On our site, no rocks what so ever. Anothe site near me, has a few, but the hogs avoid those areas. No trees, not a stinking one. And only an occasional catclaw(three feet tall) here and there.

I know my pics did not show much, but seriously, it showed it all. I will take some better shots, but I am careful to not give away location. living where everyone and their brother come to CATCH their snakes, has its drawbacks. And from all over the world.

Anyway back to work, and please keep this conversation going.

And my previous comments were not aimed at just you. One poster talked about hollow logs stuffed with sphagum moss as naturalistic. It is, just not with hogs. On the sites i visit, no logs, no sphagum, not of that stuff.

Remember, I am working with Mexican hogs. But I have also observed westerns, easterns and southerns, in the field. Thier base principles are the same, DRAINING SOILS. In the south east, its even more important due to the amount of rain. Cheers

ok, so if i use only sandy soil, as you put it...what ratio of sand to soil...? ...so say two inches of large 'grain' vermiculite, with a fine mesh screen on top of that...with a quarter or half inch of pea gravel on top of that to help keep the soil out of the vermiculit~and also keeping the snakes out of the screen and vermiculite), then ten or eleven inches of sandy soil...and i will incorporate a pvc tube, one inch in diameter with a cap on the top...so i can keep the bottom 'moisture level' substrate(vermiculite in this case) moist without getting the sandy soil moist? should i have an under tank heating element on he bottom...to heat the wet vermiculite, causing the moisture to rise into the soil? i will still probably utilize some rocks and wood stuctures for astecic reasons, although it may be more for me...than the snake, i do believe the snakes will still explore these structures and items...and honestly...i want something that is not only functional...but i want it to look good. i dont want a sandbox in an enclosure. even though the snakes may not have any small trees or anything in the environment that you are studying, i am sure there are plenty of grasses and other 'structures' in their environment elsewhere...ya know. and not being a smart ass, but there are hognose snakes in a lot of different micro habitats. if i cant have a nice 'looking' enclosure...as well as funtional, i wont keep hognoses...i do well with my boas right now, but i want to work with the hognoses. they are quite fascinating...and i am sure they will do well for me. i dont think having some surface objects will affect them negatively...if anything, it will give them more to explore. just my opinion on it...yours?
another question...how does sand and soil hold burrows, without collapsing, even if packed down well...will the burrows hold shape, or do the snakes just 'worm' into it? i was under the impression that the snakes actually make burrows...like tunnels and little 'dens'.

*couple of mis~spelled words...sorry, sometimes i try to type too fast, lol.

No worries, spelling is not a problem. I would rather you include substance, then proper spelling. And forgive me tooo. hahahahahaha

...another question, play sand would probably not be the best type of sand because of how sharp and abbrasive it is correct? what kind of sand would be best, and where could i obtain the good sand? maybe a lawncare or landscape supplier?

Where do you live?

Frank, I live in northeast ohio. and a question for ya...how long have you been observing wild hogs, and how many different study areas have you utilized?

I found my first hognose in 1968 and have seen them across their range, from Az. to fla. and down into mexico.

But that means very little. In this case, all you have to do is read the books. And look at the animal.

You stated, "Naturalistic" means to you, what the animals do in nature. Sir that is what you said. naturalistic equals what is natural to them. Or better yet, what they natually use in nature.

So I am going by what you said. You then told of making a nice looking cage thats pretty much like a cage for any species(generalized) with rocks and branches and soil.

The actual point is, what are hogs, what are there adaptions and what are they for. Why do hogs have that nose. Why are they built like a brick shathouse.

A naturalistic cage is a cage that supports their natural abilities. If you support that, the snakes will teach you what they are, what they do and how they do it. If you give them objects that is foreign to them, you give them no ability to use their adaptions. therefore your naturalistic cage is of no value to the snake, and of little actual value to you. And all because you want rocks and branches.(a pretty cage)

Are there rocks and branches in hog habitat, I am sure there is, not on my site. But what are hogs adapted for???? is the real question.

Are they rock dwellers, use rock crevices, do they climb, do they live in trees. Is their prey in rocks or trees? Or is it in the ground?

If you want to learn about them, and want to setup and cage thats natural to them(naturalistic) Then its common sense that you support what they do, and that is to dig, burrow, use other burrows. Down below Gregg stated this well. Please read what he posted.

And yes, you can keep them anyway you want. How you keep them will effect what you learn from them. What you learn from them is your choice.

Where I get into conflicts is, keepers that set up whatever species in ways totally foreign to the animal, they say, my animals do not do what you say. Of course they don't, you the keeper did not give the animal the ability to do what it knows how to do. enough of this.

I have to ask you a question, In nature, there are areas of different habitats/mirco-habitats in the basic areas. And normally there are many species occuring in those areas, some around the water, some at the edge, some in the trees and bushes, and some away from the water. Some live in the ground. how the heck do they know where to go?

Why don't hogs climb trees and eat treefrogs. Or the opposite, why don't greensnakes go down burrows in treeless praries. You get the picture. Enough of this.

The truth is, I do not want to you believe me or do anything I say, I want you to do what you want. So how about setting up two cages, one with lots of sandy soil, some decent depth, with various choices of temperature and humidity. And one with rocks and stuff. My bet is, the hogs will do down in the dirt and you will rarely see them(the drawback) As thats how they live. There are ways to work this to your advantage.

Anyway, I am only trying to help you, get to where you want to go. So please keep posting.

I have a pair of hogs set up in a four foot long cage, with a fair amount of aspen/pine shavings. AT this time. Once I learn their base behaviors and choices, I am going to add more and more substrate of a natural type. First I am going with nesting type substrate, sand coco stuff mix. Then move to whats more natural to them. I can cheat, I know exactly where they came from and the soils they use.

Consider, my "picture" the picture in my mind, is a hognose in SITU. Not on a price list. Cheers
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Some rocks and branches i put in one of my cages

What kind of sand, and at what ratio?
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You ever talk to me like that again...and I'll turn your balls into earrings. Understand?

Go for it.

Over the years I have used all manner of sand and all manner of ratios. I do not think there is a sand or a ratio. Its what works best for you and its not all that critical, not in the least.

Heres the problem, sands in nature, are a mixed grain, from what we call normal sand.(you look at it and say, SAND) to fines. Sands that are store bought, are sifted into a consistant grain size, say 30 grit or 40 or 10. 30 grit or 40 grit is what you would look at and call sand. hahahahahahahahahaha

The problem with store bought sand is, its often manifactured, that is, its made from crushed rock and is nothing but grains of sharp edges, Which is why some folks say sand plugs up reptiles, Yes sands that are like broken glass will plug them up. Natural sands are worn smooth and pass right through the gut with no problem, in fact many lizard species eat sand. But it must be rounded/worn sand.

Sands that are sifted to one grain size, LEAK. that is, water and humidity pass right through them. Sands with fines slow that down.

So natural sands that are a mixture of sizes, do not require any additives like coco junk or sphagum or anything. Sands that are sifted to one size, do require help. Either add fines or some other junk.

Reptiles again like birds, have adapted nesting to suit their enviornment. Xeric species, do not want organic manner, they want clean sand, soil, dirt.

Reptiles that occur in wetlands often have to nest about water level/ground level and have adapted to nest is organic soils or leaflitter etc. Normally forest, wetland mateials are acid based, and Xeric materials are alkaline based.

I have been fortunate to recognize this and its worked well for me. One really good trick I have used for turtle nesting is sand based nesting covered in leaflitter. Man does that do the trick. Works great with turtles and snakes, but sucks with monitors, as monitors will mix it up(busy bodies)

Anyway, anything close is better then what was posted below, the one with the scattered eggs. Greggs set up works, but in my opinion, a bit restrictive. But a million times better then scattered eggs and females eating their eggs. They NEVER eat them if they nest successfully.

Soooooooooooooo, its not all that critical, and most anything you do will benefit the animals. As you gain experience, your mix is based on your conditions. Like, I am going to be gone, so mix in more organic matter, or cover with leaflitter to allow humidity to stay in the substrate. Or pure sand, is you have access to go natural sands. beware when digging up good natural sands, you often dig up reptile eggs

Soooooooooooooo there you go, I over did it again. Best wishes

i see your point, and I am going the set it up naturalistic...to
them. you seem to believe that there are no surface structures in ALL HOGNOSE habitat, at least that is what I get out of this. I also seem to catch a little bit of mis understanding or maybe even arrogance from you. I appreciate where you are coming from, and I respect and appreciate the work that you do, I honestly do...but I kinda get that you may need to work on your PEOPLE skills a little bit. I think you may take a lot out of context, or take things a little different than what someone means when they say it. that is only my opinion, and I get what you are saying and trying to explain...but I think it is absolutely ridiculous that you think a true natural set up for a hognose CANNOT have ANYTHING on the surface of their set up. it is like you believe they are only in areas where it is wide open and looks almost like the surface of Mars....hmmmm. I KNOW for a fact that some western hognose snakes are in, and infact are active on the surface where there are sparse shrubs, grasses, and other surface structures. I also think that it is ridiculous that having a few surface structures in a set up, with deep sandy soil(of about twelve inches) is going to shut down the hognoses natural behaviors...what makes you think this? they are still going to be underground, digging and excavating their tunnels, and dens...and still doing their thing...they are not going to think, 'oh there is a few rocks on the surface, and someone had the audacity to put a damn piece of cork bark and a water bowl....I AM NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING EXCEPT SIT HERE NOW"...I just don't understand your logic here...I mean, you are a scientific observer...why would this completely shut down their behavior? and please don't side step my question by going on about something else...and another thing, I feel no differently about you than I did before(and I am pretty sure you could care less anyways,lol)...

continued...and I value your opinions and your input. I just don't get where by putting a few 'decorations' if that is what you want to call them, it works for me...but these 'decorations' are found is some hognose habitat. and I don't believe for one second that a few flat rocks or grasses or what ever, will affect their natural behavior...I just don't get it. and a nice flat rock will also be a place to offer food, hopefully less chance for ingesting substrate. I will use the sandy substrate you explained, and give them plenty of depth...and I asked you the questions I did, to get your input and put it to use. although I may tweak it a little bit, I still take it to heart. you seem to think I asked the questions, and totally ignored what you said...at least the way you worded it, that is how I took it. you said something to the affect before that you someone needs to tweak things, and make adjustments to get it perfect for the hogs...and all I will be doing is that exact thing, I will tweak it until I feel it is perfect for the animals...I also know how a good sized rock will hold heat, and that they make great basking spots under a uv heat light..and that is exactly what I plan on trying...among other things. so please don't think that I didn't take your observations to heart, because I did, and I am going to use them...but I do have a couple of my own ideas, and while you may not think so...I don't believe that my surface structures are going to affect their burrowing or natural habits. I look forward to more discussion Frank. and nothing but respect to you, and because we may not agree on everything here, I think it is important that we both are after the same thing here....but our course of getting there may be a little tweaked from one to another...good day sir.

First, we tried to understand what hognose are. What is important to them. yes is that so?

Next we try to fit that or better yet, as much as we can, into a very very very limited space. is that so?

I think its very hard to understand that animals do not chip at things. That is, what they use must include all of what they need. If not, they will seek to fullfil their needs elsewhere. If they cannot fullfil their needs, they fall into behavioral exstinction(look it up) they simply stop trying.

What we don't want is for the snakes to stop trying, so we have to offer enough to allow a behavior.

Now consider, anything added in a limited space, that does not contribute to the intended behavior/s, is in fact taking away.

As an exhibit builder, I would not add useless to the animal space eating materials. I would add a mural, paint your rocks, bushes and trees on the back and side walls, then have the real living space deticated to the animals.

If you want live plants, I would recomend growing out the cage for a year before you put snakes in the cage. Plants are great.

The problem with live plants is not the snakes, its you. Sooner or later, your going to dig the place up looking for something. hahahahahahahahahahahaha eggs perhaps! In most cases, the plants are doomed. again, most cases, that does not have to mean you. But it is true.

A flat rock to feed them on. Hmmmmmmmmm Ok. do it. The truth is, do whatever you want. Thats what I want. All I am doing is offering you choices. Just like what you should do with your hogs. Choices they make.

You do understand, truely naturalistic cages like we are discussing are very hard to do. And hard on the keeper. They put a lot of pressure on you to get it right. When they work, they work great and are incredible. When they fail, they fail hard.

As I mentioned, I came here to this site to gain information, but few are doing this. Gregg has been my help, thank you Gregg.

I am heading in the direction you are. But I am working my way in that direction. I am learning what is needed and how they use their support. I know what they are doing in nature right now. hahahahahahahahahahaha

Most folks do not or I think, do not understand the base of snake behavior. Right now, my field hogs are in the ground, pairing up, breeding and such. They are already in the areas they are going to nest in, and may not surface at all, until after the rains start. I am sure a few will before, just not most. You see, they live underground and do not have to surface EVER.

They are living their lives, going about daily behavior, all underground. The reason they do not surface is, two fold, there is not need and the surface is inhospitable. Too hot, too dry, no shade, dead plants, etc etc.

Some neonates will come up to search for another place to find food, then quickly go down. Thanks again and best wishes

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I have a billion pics, hahahahahahaha sadly its true. How a how crawls, or leaves tracks, is based on many things, soft ground and uphill they leave the above tracks which means they use that method of crawling. On hard ground or downhill they go strait and leave a strait track. Observing different methods, means you have induce something that tells them to do something different. This is just an example. one of many many.

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I hope this comes out, first time trying a vid here. IF it does, don't tell me how crappy it is, I already know.

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Nice pose

First, not sure why you would want to do the people skills thing and arrogance thing. What did I make you feel bad? If so, I am sorry. All i really did was treat you as an equal. Reread the entire thread and try to find where I acted arrogant or better then. I may have corrected you, may have is the key, I cannot really correct you as its your choice. All I can do is lead you to where you want to go.

Is it my fault that I have done this for decades? traveled the world herping. worked my whole life in animal related fields, and have captive bred reptiles for 5 decades. I have to ask, what do you expect from me? Should I not know something by now. If you ask me, I am not all that smart, its taken so long to learn something. Now all you have to do is google it up.

You asked me for my advice, I did not force myself on you, nor do I expect you to do or believe anything I say. I am offering you material to THINK about. What you do is yours to do.(i may be arrogant or something here) I flat do not understand the need to believe anything someone says. I always think about what I read or hear as possible truths, or possible usable information. Then either try in, merge it into what i do. Or not use it, even if its right. on the otherhand, what animals do in nature is TRUTH and real, even if I do not understand it.(which is common)

You presented me with a problem. A play on words. You stated your want for something naturalistic. Then stated your plans where were not naturalistic to the hognose, but was naturalistic to you. So what do you suggest I do? Say nothing? or try and define what naturalistic is, IN THIS CASE. And only doing so, so you can optimize your efforts, not mine.

Lastly, I never said there were no rocks or branches in all habitats natural to hogs(western and mexican hogs) I did state, they are not on my site. And they are not. The point is, what are hogs adapted for, burrowing and living a fossorial life, or being saxocolis and living in rocks and branches? They in fact are an extreme example of a burrowing fossorial snake. On the otherhand, I posted or tried to post a pic of a vinesnake, that is the opposite, an extreme example of a aboreal snake. i am lucky, I work with both and both are totally awsome.

Now if you feel the need to critize me, how about googling up some of the words I use and see if they fit. That would help me to be more accurate. Sometimes I miss a little in that area. Sometimes the meanings change over time. Sometimes I just goof.

People skills, how does critizing someone for taking time and attempting to help you, fit in there? This is a question. thanks and Best wishes.

ok, maybe arrogance was not the proper way to word it. I just think you fail to, or flat refuse to see other peoples points sometimes...maybe I am just taking it wrong, and if so...I apologize for that. I want as naturalistic(as literally as possible)for my hogs. I asked your advise, I gave you my initial thoughts...you gave me your opinions and points, and I said that I would change up how I was going to set up...using sandy substrate instead of the mixture I was originally going to use, as well, I changed a few more of my initial thoughts on how I was going to set up.
my question to you, that you still have NOT answered, is how does having some surface structure(that I KNOW does exist in some hognose natural range)limit or change their natural habits and the way they live. I do not think that adding a few rocks of live plants is going to take away from the enclosure...and I SURELY don't believe that it is taking away from the usable space of the vivarium. if there are a few rock, or plants...the snakes can crawl over, under, or even around them...I just don't see how you are saying that it is not NATURALISTIC to have these things...when they ARE CLEARLY IN THE NATURAL HABITAT OF THE WILD HOGNOSE. I understand that there may not be a lot of ground cover or even plants where YOU ARE OBSERVING....but you cannot tell me that there is not any of that stuff in OTHER HOGNOSE SNAKES NATURAL HABITAT. ..because there is, fact.

and as far as a few live plants in the vivarium...they would be in pots, buried in the substrate, with pea gravel inside the pots, above the soil that the plant is planted in...to avoid the snakes uprooting the plants...I don't know if it will keep the snakes from uprooting, but I wont know until I try it. if I were to ever have to move or remove the plants...all I need to do is pull the pots, no harm to the plants.

and I don't get how you think I am not taking everything you have said or advised, and given it great though, because I have. I like you Frank, I have no ill feelings or disrespect toward you at all...to me it seems you may think otherwise. maybe it is just a communication block between us, maybe we don't quite get how one another words things, and makes it mean what the one who wrote it, actually meant it. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, and your work. I know your work is very important to the animals, and to the keeper in general. I only wanted your ideas, and you have given them to me, and for that, I thank you...I will use most of them, but there are a couple of small things, like the surface structures we may not agree on...and that is okay. I want to learn, and hopefully teach others. I want to provide my animals with the absolute best life and environment I can provide for them. albeit may not be perfect, or match exactly what they would see or experience in nature...but I also believe we as keepers, can provide even better life for our animals than they may have in the wild. I mean, I choose to keep the animals I keep...so I OWE IT TO THE ANIMALS, to provide them all with the best possible environment and life that I can provide them with...because I KNOW WE BOTH KNOW AND UNDERSTAND, that this is both of our goals...along with learning from them, and about them. thanks Frank for your time and help, it is highly respected and appreciated.

A bit of a joke, hmmmmmm snakes point of view, your point of view, snakes point of view, your point of view. Thats an easy one, snakes every time. What would you expect of me??? and why? I also pick the snakes over me all the time. I am always smacking myself around. Its takes a good smacking, but i come around sooner or later.

I already said, you can do whatever you want. Your snake, your cage. But I still question ROCKS. If you do them safely, they need to be adhered to the floor, with takes up needed substrate space. If you lay them on top, good luck with that, sand with heavy things on top is a bad combination.

Your confusion is between their homes(microhabitat) in nature and their habitat. THeir homes are in dirt/sand/ground. Their overall habitat may have rocks and trees somewhere. But they do not use those rocks and trees. If you want to make THEM HAPPY, give them a home. Give them what they use to make a home. Not something to crawl on. Both is ok, but you really should get the home thing down first. I worked on long island and there they would say, Rocks {forget about it) no explination to follow.

You can fit a hognose home area in the parmeters of a medium to large cage, you cannot fit their habitat, 1. in your house 2. in a building or 3. on your block. Their known usable territory can be aprox a 1/2 mile area. Their home burrow system, a few meters.

If you want to mimic something and call it natural, then please consider mimicing their home area.

You see this comes back to you and it was covered in the first posts. If you want a pretty cage and call it naturalistic, do whatever you want. But if you want naturalistic to be about hogs in nature, then your approach is off. But you can still do whatever you like.

Hopefully somebody reading this will have a lite go off in their head. Whats important to the animal, and what is pretty to the animal, may not be the same as what you think is important or pretty. What I am discribing is a report from nature, where they are free to choose.

If I were to discribe hognose habitat, pretty would not be included in the discription.

Lastly, if what your asking of me is to confirm your thoughts, I see no benefit it that, not to me, you or the snakes, or anyone reading this. So I am bound to stand up for the snakes.

The reason I seem stubborn is, Our cages are so small, the best we can do is provide a tiny tiny solution. We have already taken away the luxuries and frills. We have taken away everything but the actual HOLE they live in. In nature they have systems of holes and know them like you know your house, no thats wrong, better then you know your house.

The magic of hogs is, how they make these houses, how they manuver through the maze of holes and know whats been there, yesterday, the day before. All without lite. So how do they make their holes, dig with their nose like its a shovel?

Thats only a start. they poke their heads thru the ground, and then compact the soil by tighening up their bodies. Like an earthworm only better. Push, compact, push compact. Its not wonder they use soft sandy loamy soils Cheers and junk

I am starting to see what others meant by closed minded...you are not getting what I am saying, you are taking what I am saying...and putting it your way, and basically saying that I am wrong...you seem to refuse any other logic, other than your own. you see things the way you want them...and wont even try to see things in another way, or look at the fact that there may be other 'right' ways of doing things. you think your way, is the only right way to do things, and everyone elses way or ideas are wrong...I guess it is a good thing that the hognose snake have you, because it is pretty obvious that nobody else is having success with them, or keeping them happy, lol. have a good day. I guess I am done with this discussion, because it is pretty obvious by now that you are only going to see things your way, and not be open to any other ideas but your own. good day....and junk.

" I am starting to see what others meant by closed minded...you are not getting what I am saying, you are taking what I am saying...and putting it your way, and basically saying that I am wrong...you seem to refuse any other logic, other than your own. you see things the way you want them...and wont even try to see things in another way, or look at the fact that there may be other 'right' ways of doing things. you think your way, is the only right way to do things, and everyone elses way or ideas are wrong...I guess it is a good thing that the hognose snake have you, because it is pretty obvious that nobody else is having success with them, or keeping them happy, lol. have a good day. I guess I am done with this discussion, because it is pretty obvious by now that you are only going to see things your way, and not be open to any other ideas but your own. good day....and junk."

You just hit the nail on the head, about your observance of such an attitude that has ruined forums, much less their own reputation.
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Genesis 1:1

...it was going to take for this conversation to go down hill.

Unfortunately, as many of us have found out, is that Frank is a condescending narcissist

Ironically, he'll sit here all day and preach to you about how to setup the a natural environment, but the truth is, there was one post that was taken down shortly after, of Frank's hognose environment and it was just a tank with wood shavings on the bottom and what looked like a pallet thrown in, what he refers to at a Retes stack. If anything, it was just as unrealistic a setup as many of those he criticizes. Maybe since then his environment has evolved, but not to the degree that he'd like to have everybody believing how he actually keeps his hogs versus what he's always preaching to people.

Anywho, sorry you wasted so much time with Frank and ended up coming to the same conclusion that myself and others came to a while back. I never initially had a problem with Frank but his arrogant attitude towards me and the rest of our community quickly changed my opinion of him. Sadly, any criticisms you offer to Frank will just be deflected by his over inflated ego, you'll always be wrong. It's why this forum is becoming less active and why I don't frequent it much anymore. If Frank wants to be the dead albatross on this lost ship, so be it.

Good luck with your project Rick!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

So very true guys.

now EVERYONE SING ALONG!!,.....(Mary Poppins song)

"Super-duper narcissistic expialidocious,....if you read his BS here it's simply quite atrocious, common sense sure dictates that he's REALLY not precocious, ...Super-duper narcissistic expialidocious!

"The lone dead albatross on a lost and rusty ghost-ship"

..........his infamous legacy!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

ROFL!!!

That was hilarious. I almost spewed water all over the floor. You should write children's books.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

LOL!!,.....Yeah, good logic and common sense has already failed miserably....All that's left is some good comic relief to perfectly match the posts made.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Wasn't sure if you were being serious or not? I am sorry if this may come across as rude, but is it the truth? Everyone who has seen the book knows this as truth. His Honduran book is kinda the level of a crayon book for kids.

I actually expected much more from Dmong because he is capable..
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"So I will end with, your now aware of the problem, what YOU do is entirely up to you. Now if you make THIS mistake, its not because you are ignorant."

Frank Retes

Doug, I didnt know you had the muse in you. Glad we two are not the lone opinions of a dude I at one time respected, not by a long shot

No doubt Howie......every sees it and knows it with every post.

glad ya like the little jingle?..LMAO!!
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yes, I am a demon, and this coming from you who cannot evert a hognose. See, your right. No offense, you don't even need fingers to do that.

The problem is, you make it personal and attack people who are TRYING. All in some effort of appearance. You know, make Fr look bad, make troy look good. No thanks Troy. Good thing about learning about hogs is, its not about looks.

I will keep going, hope you do the same. Cheers

Yes, I am a demon, and this coming from you

I've never said that, don't need to. Most people come to that conclusion on their own. They don't need any help figuring that out from me.

You know, make Fr look bad, make troy look good.

Once again, I don't exert any effort in trying to make you look bad, you do that all to yourself. Let's look at your latest victim, Rick for example, I never once interjected in your conversation with him. But just after a short period of time of trying to have a decent conversation with you, he came to the realization all on his own about what an arrogant, closed-minded narcissist you are. In fact, none of us here that have grown to dislike you ever helped to sway his understanding of who you really are, he discovered it on his own while we all just sat on the sidelines waiting for it to happen.

Imagine that!

I do owe you a bit of gratitude though Frank. If it weren't for you and the constant bullcrap you've shoveled on these forums, I would probably never have met some of the great people that I've now become good friends with. So thanks for that! Your motto should be "Bringing people together while slowly destroying forums."
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

excellent message Troy, and my name is Howie and I am glad to meet you.

Hi Howie!

It's a pleasure and honor to make your acquaintence!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Troy,

Howie is a legend.
Howie is a master of all that is locality.
Howie's reputation is of the utmost highest, being a true hero of the herp scene.
Howie's locality Okeetee corns are insane.

DISCERN approves your message Troy.
-----
Genesis 1:1

"Howie's reputation is of the utmost highest, being a true hero of the herp scene."

Of that I have no doubt!

True pioneers don't need to create lies and falsehoods about being the first to create this or do that all the while trying to hold it over everybody's head. If you have a solid enough reputation, people will already know who you are and what your accomplishments have been. If you have to keep trying to convince people of what you've done, chances are, you probably haven't done much at all!

And I apologize for stealing your line. I just had to use it!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

...and I could not have said it better myself!!!
-----
Genesis 1:1

Talk about a post that is incredibly spot-on!

You mentioned every single detail about what someone shouldn't do if they are really as FABULOUS as they CONSTANTLY keep saying that they are to everyone they ever correspond with. And of course, he isn't at all. Not even close. Matter of fact, the very opposite! Children typically do this as everyone knows.

A friend was telling me a while back that he was just like this at dinner when they all went out to eat after a reptile show. Geeezus, I can only IMAGINE what the one-sided "conversations" were like at this table..HAHAA!!! I'm sure I would be hurling what little I could even get down hearing all the ridiculous BS spewed while trying to enjoy a freakin meal with the others.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

It's like my late best friend used to always say: There are basically 2 kinds of people, those that are charming and those that are tedious. It appears that some here find the antics and ravings of Frank charming. I guess I'm one of those that do not.

Even though Frank does bring some good topics to this forum, the constant condescension, exaggerations and insane lying overshadow those topics (to me) which tends to make this forum quite tedious and I've found myself losing interest being here despite the years of time and effort I've put into helping and being part of a community that, years ago, used to be great. Those days seem long gone now.

Even the splendor of Rome eventually fell into decadence and decay. C'est la vie, my friend, c'est la vie...
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Yeah, he got us together on the phone laughing at the insanity too. Glad to have chatted with you, Troy!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah, he got us together on the phone laughing at the insanity too. Glad to have chatted with you, Troy!

It was great meeting and talking to you too Doug! Yep, lots of laughs indeed, that 3-way conversation was hilarious. I never get tired of laughing at the idiocy of megalomaniacs.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

hahahahahaha look the two amigos, oh wait, now theres three.

First off, is this forum about my reputation? or is it about hognose and the discussion of hognose. I.E. the animals.

These forums are about first and foremost the animals, read from the top of the page.

About my reputation. I have no concern for one. I do great sometimes, and sometimes I screw up. I can live with that.

I will say, how I am thought of on these forums, hmmmmmmm is not important. Or at least not high on my list of important things.

My reputation here should be, someone who is passionate about reptiles, like some others here.

You could say, my reputation is that of someone trying to help others. But that would mean I care about people. We wouldn't want that would we.

its just that some nice folks like you, are against that, and only want to form little clicks that critizie others and do nothing of benefit to the animals. In fact, your a troll, someone who joins threads to confuse and take away from. Not add to. Don't be such a troll, try adding to.

You make it about other people(me) because your concern is how your thought of. The above click thing.

Which will end with, why the concern with me. Why aren't you trying to help?????????????????? that is my question. If you have better ideas, then please, put me in my place. Surely your better then I. I have no doubt about that.

Hey Billy you still here. Doug told me to check out this thread. Unbelievable how unable some people are to evolve and to grow, and to open such tightly closed minds.Hope to see you in daytona in august this year

Howie!

Great to hear from you!!
It is sad, isn't it? You would figure age would make one ripen with maturity, but alas, such is self indulgence of ones's own self.
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Genesis 1:1

This is totally simple and now overdone. I offer you, my thoughts, based on my experience. Thats what I am suppose to do.

You offer your thoughts, based on what you want, your goals. We agree on somethings and do not on others. No problem.

I offer you what I feel is important to help you obtain your stated goals. If you do not want that, great. But its not my responsibility to apease you. Or agree with you, when I see you are not getting the importance of what I say(think).

You also stated, you look to my thoughts because of my experience in the field. Yet you do not like what I am saying, based on that experience in the field. The truth is, you do not have to agree or do what I say, you are free to do whatever you want.

More truth, whatever you do or think is great. I hope it works for you.

I also stated, my goals are much like yours. but unlike you, I am starting slow and working towards that goal. That is, my current setup is semi natualistic. Only in the fact that I supported a wide range of temps and security(the only natural part). As I learn how these individual animals work, I will add natural materials. Slowly step by step. I may end up with a cage like you want or not. depending on how they the animals react.

My feeling is, you want to capture a postcard picture of your precieved hognose habitat. I on the otherhand, I want to add usable parts of their natural habitat. Like a successful home area and nesting area, Then add to that in ways to pretty it up.

The first step I feel we can do in captivity is provide them with what THEY WANT. and thats a home. after that, your free to make yourself feel better in anyway you like.

So in the end, I am not suppose to think like you, or confirm your hopes or goals. I am suppose to offer you my experience.

About being right or wrong, its not about that. Not yet. What you end up doing will have a result, that result can be judged as right or wrong. And only how it suits your goals, not mine. I was hoping to help you reach your goals.

Lets break it down, if what you want is a pretty cage, your approach is great. But is what you want is about the animals mental and physical welbeing. Give it something it wants. Pretty simple.

And its not personal or liking you or not liking you. Its discussion. no more, no less. You really need to understand that. This is a discussion board. We come here to discuss things, not agree on things. We come to offer tidbits for thought. Not believing or not believing.

In the end and I hope this is the end. You asked me a question, I answered. What you do is yours to do. But you go on and on about me not understanding you. Sir/ette, I am not suppose to understand you. I am only suppose to offer you my thoughts. Hopefully it helps you, if not, I tried. I have tried. Thanks and good luck and please report your progress. best wishes

One of the things you fail to understand or never learned early on is to be civil and listen to others points of view ,to be respectful of those points, and to be constructive without being overly critical and destructive.Simple etiquette. Maybe YOU are in the wrong enclosure. lol

Hey there snakekeeper. Glad you have seen for yourself that you can't be anything but be told that everything you are doing is wrong because "God" himself tells you so. FR is a good argument for atheism now that I think of it. I have had a few years experience too and what you are planning for the hoggies sounds wonderful to me. I'd love to see pics when the enclosures are completed. You labored so hard to be gentlemanly and look at how you are spoken to. I also think that somewhere deep down his heart is in the right place but he just does not know how to properly communicate to others, let alone consider anyone a peer, let alone listen to other points of view and at least give it a nano second of consideration. Cheers and happy dos de mayo. My snakes must be so depressed in their simple enclosures with water , a hide box, some nice substrate and if possible occasional enrichment.

If telling you my opinion, is somehow taken by you as your wrong. I would think you have self esteem problems and recomend a Therapist. I would think any half educated human would have enough mind of their own, to do what they want. I think its about that simple.

Totally understood and made an instant connection when I saw FR and "simple". Love the "what you can't understand you want to destroy" philosophy you continually espouse. Worked well for the American Indian, and more ethnic groups than I would care to think about.Those that say others need therapy are often the ones most in need of said therapy(a pretty famous Psychiatrist said that and I see no reason, at least in this case, to disagree). Glad at least I have been elevated to half human by you. Maybe in a few thousand years you will reach that stage in your evolution. I would love any time to engage in a battle of wits with you sir. Not good in a forum like this but great comedy in other venues.
"I'm Laughing at the Superior Intellect"-James T. Kirk

FR states: .... "I would think you have self esteem problems and recomend a Therapist"

I agree.....it's Howie and all the others here. As well as every other person on every other forum in the entire world. You certainly don't need to seek professional therapy and/or medication. Enjoy the lone rusty ghostship voyage as it floats off into the sunset.

....LMFAO!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, You simply got it down dude. Biting wit and sarcasm. unfortunately if there is even a nuance of wit and original thinking it is lost on Lord voldemort oops I meant you know who.

Keep it about the ANIMALS HOWARD!!!!!....THE ANIMALS!!!

not the PEOPLE WITH THE ANIMALS!!!......the ANIMAL'S OWNERS ARE NOT IMPORTANT HOWARD!!!.......even THE ANIMALS want it to be ALL ABOUT THE ANIMALS!!...not the care takers that OWN THE ANIMALS!!!

....LMFAO!!!

hmmm, I see another little song "jingle" here..LOL!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, I want to take this opportunity for drawing back into the same inanity I thought I had distanced myself from. We are going to have some great laughs at "Gods" expense in Daytona.

Agreed buddy......dude, you had me crackin up with your great (and very accurate)commentary....HAHAAA!!!

As you know all too well, many folks that can barely spell their own names correctly, like to "think" of themselves, as well as constantly portray to others that they are wordly academic scholars.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

And I love when the inevitable "I have over 50 yrs experience" comes up. I know people with 80 years experience that can't even tie their own shoelaces. Do you even have Hoggies? I hope to get to the sandhills perhaps this spring and see some simus, but not working with any at present. Love when they put on their act.ooops sorry I am actually talking snakes on here. I better be careful I may even place a serious post.

......doesn't matter how many years anyone has. All depends on how those years were applied and what was done and learned in those 50 years.

I know guys that have been breeding milksnakes for several decades too, yet they know squat about many things regarding them.....they only care about making them to sell, nothing much more than that.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

No, I don't work with any hogs right now, although I have had a few Easterns before. I only pop in here once in a VERY great while to just to see the narcissistic insanity.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Real quick. Soil is a generic word, and its getting in the way. Soil from where I live, is indeed not soil from Iowa, or anywhere east. Please just look at the picks, you know, what is under the hogs. That is what they live in, not some misture, but natural.

Natural sands, are a combination is different grain sizes, up to fines. Very tiny, to larger grains. But still grains.

I like a simple approach. just duplicate what they do, and not prejudice it. Your trying to make things complicate and there is not need to. Take your pipe, Why a pipe???? If you have draining SUBSTRATE(I won't say soil any more) Then pouring water in one corner, only only serves to get water to the subfloor, but it also allows for different choices for the hogs, you know, more humid on one end, dryer on the other. The pipe, just makes it more difficult.

About looks, Hmmmmmmmm I am a reptile exhibit builder and I am doing that now. Looks is about the scene you create, it does not have to include Rocks or branches. If you want to make it NATURALISITC(about hogs) then make a cage that represents HOGS. 2/3's of the viewing area should be UNDERGROUND. Make it so they can burrow up against the glass, You know, have a cover on the outside of the glass so lite does not stop the hogs from burrowing up against the glass. Move the cover and view whats underground. There are a million ways I can make a hognose cage that is beautiful and about hogs. Rocks and branches are about you.
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