Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, everyone. First off, while I am a newbie breeder, I am not so much a novice in keeping Western hognoses--I have had at least one happily in my house for the last 10 years. However, last year I decided to try my hand at breeding them, so I got a 2 year old normal female, and a 1 year old red phase male. I have been fattening them both up, and successfully brumated both of them (in Nor Cal, at temps in the mid 50's to low 60's from November (when the female went down on her own) and October for the male (he had gone off his feed and was being cranky). They both came out of brumation in late March, and the female ate immediately while the male refused to eat (remember, he hadn't eaten since October). He did seem to be searching for something, so I took a chance and popped him into the female's tank. Within 5 minutes (I am not kidding!!!) they were locked up, and I felt like I was watching snake porn. It was awesome!!! I left him in with her for a week, separated them for 2 weeks, and then put him back in (he looked like he was searching for a female again). She has been eating non-stop since then, and he has eaten twice.

She recently looked quite a bit plumper, and then she shed a week and a half ago. Then, 3 days ago, she started to lay obvious slugs. Small, misshapen, creamed-honey-colored, hard eggs that had no veins, and were the size of a dime. She has laid 11 so far, and I keep checking the moist hide for more on a daily basis. She has thinned out tremendously, but is still eating like a pig. (Yesterday she downed 3 full grown mice.)

My question is this: as far as the slugs go, is there a greater chance that they are slugs because it is her/the male's first breeding, or because there is a normal x red phase trying to occur? I am totally novice at breeding, and I don't know much about the male other than he is about 3, and is definitely a red phase.

While I am not holding out much hope, I suppose there is a possibility of getting fertile eggs out of this clutch, and then a fair chance of a second clutch in a while. I guess another question would be whether or not I should let her rest and see what happens in a few weeks, or if I should continue to bulk her back up and reintroduce the male in a while.

Thanks in advance for the help, and please, only constructive replies/posts. If there is something else you need to know to help answer my questions, please ask. And please remember, I have fully admitted to being a newbie--everyone starts out with inexperience in breeding.

Honestly, it could be a lot of factors.

The male could be sterile or it could be the female. It could be that some animals are just not compatible to reproduce, think of people that are not of compatible blood types and cannot have children. I have a couple of females that have always laid slugs even though they were bred to several different proven males that have fathered clutches with other females.

It could also be many different environmental issues, too hot, too cold, unacceptable lay boxes or overall housing, not having enough body fat (females), snakes not figuring out to keep sufficiently hydrated by drinking from the water bowl, etc. There could be so many factors and just no real way of knowing, especially as a 3rd party.

All you can do at this point is to pair them up several times to see if you keep getting the same results. If so, then you'll need to change the equation, either by changing mates for either snake or by making changes to how you keep them. It's basically going to be a process of elimination.

Good luck!
-----
Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

It could be some of the things Troy mentioned. What Troy did not mention (very surprized at you Troy LOL) is the fact that you paired them up at the wrong time and missed the females ovulation. Did she lay all the slugs at once of has it been going on over a few days?

Thanks to both you guys! Such great points!!

Greg, she's been laying them over about a week. Just when I think she's done, there are a few more. I have palpated her belly several times but can't feel anything. And she is eating one ot two adult mice every couple of day and then pooping regularly..

I think that letting her rest until the next breeding season (barring any unforseen double or triple clutches), and then trying again next year may be the best thing for her.

I really appreciate the help and advice, Troy and Gregg! Thanks again! And I will keep everyone updated if anything changes or happens.

Laila

Hi Laila,

If she is feeding like you say, and passing fecals, she sounds good to go.

About resting, hmmmmmmmmm not sure how that applies to herps. They are not designed to rest. Not how we mean it. They attempt to gain the strenght and health as quick as possible and go for it. In nature, there is no quarantee of tomorrow. again, its their design. That is, if they can, they do, if they can't, they don't. Your only choice is to support what they do. If a female attempts a second clutch, I do not think its good to limit support.

Which means, if she feeds well and cycles again, your best decision is to allow breeding. Its my experience in captivity that normal reproduction is much easier on the female then failed reproduction. Its harder to absorb ovum then lay good eggs.

Also if it was the male not having time to develop sperm, then now he does. Supporting a second clutch will help you learn about what caused the first failure. Best of luck

Hello.

Slugs, soft slimy (not actually eggs) enlarged ovum that were not fertilized, therefore are not shelled. (leathery calicfied layer with a threadlike pattern that drys quickly after deposition)

This without question means its a problem with the male. As mentioned by Gregg and totally correct, timing can be the issue and how they are laid tells you where the problem is.

Timing breaks down into two areas.
1. has the male had time and health to produce and store sperm.
2. did they copulate during the reproductive window. The female cycles and becomes receptive for a short period, Aprox 2 weeks. This is normally when she first swells up. And continues for about a week after the ovum drop into the oviducts(where they can easily be palpated)
With strong hibernation, the loss of viable sperm in males is a common problem. In the field, males of many reptiles atrophy their gonads in the winter, and redevelop them in the spring. This was once used as a method to determine what time of the year unknown species reproduce(relative gonad size)(I do question this)

What we see in nature is, paired up males, emerge and bask(elevate heat) as long as two weeks before females emerge. This is common with many species. This two week period allows the buildup of sperm.(gonad growth)

So, the deposition of enlarged ovum is characterized by dropping of a few ovum at a time in many places around the cage. Normally soon after the shed. And Greggs is right, how these animals do this is important to determine the problem.

If your interested, I can discribe other basic types of reproductive failure.

So yes, if this is the problem, make sure the male has decent temp choices and feeding. Sometimes, males will not feed, as all they want to do is copulate. If your female is supported well, you can see a better outcome on the second clutch.

good luck and best wishes

FR, yes! Yes, please, I would love to know the other reasons for failure! It's all so interesting!!! Thank you for the information! I will continue to feed them both and put him back in with her in a few days.

I really appreciate everyone's feedback, and all the information. I am supremely grateful.

Laila