Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dotz laid her clutch during the night. 10 good eggs and the last one is sort of an afterthought, probably not any good. In the clump one of the eggs is sort of hard to see, but there really are 10.

Dotz (the one with the dot on her neck) and her mate Mazar. She is such a little champion! First clutch in 2011 she laid 7, in 2012 she laid 8, and in 2013 10! (Not really going to count the little dud.) She always goes 14 days from pre-lay shed to lay.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Nice Bob!
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~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Look me up on Face Book as well!

Congrats on the first of many clutches Bob. Beautiful snakes.
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Kent

Very nice Bob.

--Dennis

Things are late here this year. Just saw this a few minutes ago.

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

All my snakes are later this year, too.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Congrats and beautiful animals. 14 days is a long time. I do talk about nesting because they(pyros in particular) can and do lay their eggs as soon as the day after they shed. Which saves almost two weeks of holding eggs and that stress on the female.

Its obvious your animals are well cared for and strong. So now its not a problem. But as she ages, shes not going to take holding eggs that long as well. It will be more important then.

So please keep in mind, their natural task is to find proper nesting and deposit their eggs as soon as possible. good luck and best wishes

Yes, I have found that very helpful, I have noticed that having a moist hide with that coconut stuff in it year round that there is a huge difference in the way the females look after laying. In the last few years I've noticed that they don't have much of that " tented" look and overall seem more colorful, robust and replenish faster. I hate the thought of a bunch of picky/finicky little babies again but I love the adults. Yet another reason I'm liking Pits.

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Plastic containers full of lightly moist moss please the pyros greatly year round for general comfort as well as egg laying. Unfortunately with the pituophis they use them as toilets, so the only time the pits get moss is when the female is gravid and has had her pre-lay shed. Otherwise the pits get damp paper towels.

I do like that the baby bulls will eat right after they hatch. With the pyros I have found presentation matters. Putting the food in the baby's cage in a little cup and letting the baby find it on its own seems to get them feeding really easily.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I'm going to have to pic your brain for ideas to get them going without all the ojida!
I'm too far north for Skinks and other lizards and tired of mutilating little thawed pinkies and resorting to force feeding.

I've even kept live anoles and geckos, and they give you real dirty looks when you rub live or FT pinks on them to scent. Lol

I'm also tired of keeping a frozen lizard in the mouse freezer. I'm finding the Pits SO MUCH more enjoyable. All enjoyment and no stress. ....well, other than some of the super dumps.

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

I hear you on the "Ojida"; what a great word, will name something really aggravating Ojida! LOL!

I am not raising the fence lizards this year. I released all my lizards to live happy lives in my wood piles and rock piles. Just the other day I saw one of my females on a fence post being very gravid. So they are doing very well. It was just such a job of work to have to raise all the crickets and so forth. Then with the last huge pyro clutch last year I just did the presentation technique and the babies all ate without any hoopla on my part. No mutilating pinkies or insulting lizards!

This year looks to be a chance to confirm the presentation technique, as the three pyro mamas are being very productive. I think if you are born the size of a nightcrawler the world would seem a very scary place, and just finding and eating a meal would take all one's courage. Babies want to live and eat but fear can overrule instinct, and put the kibosh on feeding.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

So I'm understanding you to say that you're able to put a FT pink in a container and let the hatchling "find" it rather than confronting it by plopping a FT pink in front of it or just in its container? Unscented even?

If I'm understanding that right I think I may no longer be feeding my adults Walmart type tailless mice too!

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

I forgot to mention I don't feed frozen thawed. I feed live pinks, as I have a large mousery and always have live pinks on hand. The pink may have to sit in the little cup (just to keep it within view instead of crawling off into the bedding and possibly dying unseen by me) so a live pink can last a couple days. A ft one would rot. Eck! I realize not everyone is in position to have a mousery like I do in my rural location. So don't know what to suggest if having to feed only ft to newly hatched babies. My friend who also raises pyros uses ft and just lays the dead pink next to the hide entrance in the baby's tub, and that seems to work for him.

A bunch of little wigglies from last year; ah, the tedium! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Thanks.
If that works, I may still have some old lab cages up in the attic from years ago when I raised mice. Don't want the smell and extra work but honestly it may well be worth it if it lowers the stress level by getting these guys started. I tried everything from the humid hides, feeding at night, braining etc. you name it and it was a battle. I know some folks like the challenge but I tried little Syspila once and got so tired of trying to get them going. I'm liking Pits much more.

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Hi Bob, I love pits too, but that is not the point.

And the same goes for pyro.

While hes doing great and takes great care of his animals, He and you are missing the point. Don't yell at me. hahahahahaha

Snakes are prebirds, they nest, that is a huge important part of their lives. Snakes are EASY in that they can and do accept far more stress then other animals(built for hard times)

But because they can endure stress does not mean we should routinely keep them that way. Again, particularly when its easy to decrease that stress.

The main problem with smaller king neonates is DEHYDRATION, Huge surface area to mall ratio. And thin skinned. Mex milks, pyros and other small kings, are effected by dehydration. In your case, moisture boxes are not a cure, but a treatment. Stop the dehydration is the cure. Moisture boxes may help a little or not, as you have seen.

Neonate small kings, LIVE in moisture boxes, not visit them. Not wet, but humid and without dehydration. You rarely if ever see wild baby kings out when its dry. Ok, never. Adults, sometimes but rare.

You cannot expect your baby kings to feed in a normal way, when they are chronically dehydrated. In pyromainiacs case, its about nesting. In your case its about neonates.

Baby kings live in huge moisture boxes, they do not visit them when they are dried out. They only leave humid areas when they have grown enough to withstand dryer conditions.

About nesting, snakes nest in conditions where eggs hatch. Is that true(silly ? huh) They have to. The KEY TO UNDERSTANDING IS HERE. The areas they nest in are the same areas the snakes grow up in. They do not hatch and magically have "different" abilities. If an egg won't hatch in set conditions, then the hatchlings will not thrive in those conditions.

In Bob pyro's case, proper nesting will increase the strengh of both the female and the hatchlings. If he kept the hatchlings in the same conditions the eggs hatch in, the neonates will eat his face. So to speak.

Heres the problem, both of you are treating symtoms, instead of fixing the problem. If you fix the problem, insteat of treat the problem, you do not have to worry about presentation and all such. These snakes are NOT PICKY in nature.

In your case(BobS) all you have to do is make your whole cage the same as your moisture box. Which is medium humidity and no loss of moisture, like you do eggs.

About nesting, the key is LACK OF LITE, they lay in secure areas. And there are many reasons, some phyiscal, some behavioral. The physical requirements are easy to understand. They must find areas that will stay suitable for TWO MONTHS. In nature, that is not easy or everywhere. And it requires mass. Mass to keep the humidity and temps even and the same from spring into summer. This cannot be done near the surface in 99.9999% of natural cases.

This mass, is where the neonates will stay and mature to a point they are physically able to leave.

Behaviorally they also nest deep to avoid predators.

So in Bob pyros case, your forcing the females to hold eggs as long as they physically can then dropping them. Instead of laying them when they are physically ready. Which is right after the shed.

The reality is, no not all find suitable nesting right away, only the successful ones. Which is important.

Failed nesting occurs in nature, which is why they have the ability to hold eggs. I have to ask, why would WE do this on purpose?

A few nights ago I filmed a scaly have a failed nesting attempt, in nature. Crappy vid, but one thats real. Cheers

I will keep them in shoeboxes that are all Sphagnum and some In boxes with the moistened Coconut stuff, flat pieces of slate bathroom tiles on top. I will report back if I get babies this year. ( I don't purposely try, they are a result of communal caging) Do you think in this type of setup they might go for FT pinks right off?
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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

"Without exception a female will have a shed within a period of 10 - 21 (average: 14) days prior to egg-laying." Gerold Merker
www.kingsnake.com/king/pyromelana/ppyromelana.html
This is what they seem to do; Gerold and I are almost neighbors, living in the Sierra Nevada foothills. Maybe it is the elevation?
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Heres what your doing, your putting faith in other people and not your animals. Gerold is a great person, you may want to ask him about me and pyros. I took him in the field and showed him numbers of pyros, including nesting areas. His son owes me, he ruined my car. hahahahahahaha tell him that.

Actually his son is working as a reptile vet in Tucson.

To be plain and simple, its not about Gerold, your mimicking a mimick. Best to minick the subject, pyros,

Heres facts, in nature they lay within five days of shedding. In captivity, they can and do, if nesting is not so minimal. Its simple, the longer they hold the eggs, the less suitable nesting is. If your married and have a wife, and she has had children, ask her if she would want to hold those babies in her, oh another month or two? Make sure you have protection when you ask her. hahahahahahahahahahaha Cheers

I mentioned Gerold because he seems to be knowledgeable on the topic.

How do you track the wild females and know when they shed and then when they lay their eggs?

Where do the wild females lay their eggs? Are the eggs very easy to find?
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Gerold is a very good guy, but hes not the snakes.

I try to help you because you seem to care and take very good care of your animals.

As such, it should be based on the animals and not Gerold or I, we are a start to get you going, to get you thinking and testing, not follow X instructions.

Once you see good nesting, its very hard to not support it all the time. All I ask is to try, once you see improvement, you will keep trying to improve it until theres no more improvement.

As I mentioned, one day after shed is possible, but between one and five days is normal.

I have been pushing this on the hog forum and one keeper had a hog nest successfully 12 hours after her shed. And he only moved to good nesting a tiny bit. Like five inches of substrate instead of 12 or more.

Whats funny is, the main species I worked on nesting with was pyros.

Pyros nest in. In the ground and sometimes in crevices that go into the ground. The area I took Gerold, there are three nesting areas. All three are communial nests. In some areas they do that, in other areas they don't.

How do I find nests, I work my arse off looking. Then get lucky. normally I start by finding neonate sheds. If you find four or five sheds in one spot, the nest is close by. I do not molest the nests or touch them. I do cheat a little, on occasion I place flat rocks by the exit, and find the neonates under those rocks when they emerge. They do use the same spot year after year.
Once you find a nesting area, you logically figure out the steps and look for those steps. One nesting area has a crevice where the females go. I watch them go into shed and come out and watched them go down. Not all nesting areas are good teaching areas.

I have nesting areas in at leash three different mountian ranges. In each range, they nest differently, yet exactly the same. They utilize the normal basic nesting types many colubrids use. In dirt burrows, holes with a roof, underground structure of some type and underground crevices. All common colubrid approaches.

Of course to find nesting, you have to know what the local pyros are doing, winter, summer, spring, etc. Which takes patience and not touching.

I worked a pit tag study for 18years and several observation studies. When you intrude on the animals, your hindering what you learn. While its easy to follow radio tagged individuals, you mainly follow them running from you. When I do not touch resident animals, they return to the same places year after year, day after day, you do not need to track them, you follow their routines.

Some reptiles on my property, I use particpant observation.

I have been watching ONE INDIVIDUAL pair of gilas, they have stayed in the exact same place for 34 years, to the inch. Of course i watch many many pair.

Most colubrid populations seem to average 5 to 8 years then disappear. Crots much longer and gilas live forever.

When working in this area behavior, I suggest googling up, some terms. First, ethology, as that is what we are doing, NOT BIOLOGY. also google up, naturalistic observation. That explains how there is a relationship between captivity and nature.

In the past biological science, has gone goofy and lost its mind, or at least its direction. Science forgot all about ethology and how that works. Biologists are often out of their wheel house and have no concept of behavior. Just the simple fact that many biologist think there is no behavioral effect when surgically implanting a radio and closely following the animals, WITH NO PERIOD OF HEALING. Like the next day, that is absurd in all areas of science. Sadly its why so little is known about reptile behavior. But times are changing thank goodness.

THanks and congrats of taking such good care of your animals.

Thank you for a most informative and insightful reply!

The nesting I am providing for my pyros and pits consists of an appropriately sized tub with a entrance hole in the top, and full of moist but not soggy moss enough for the snake to burrow into, and a cardboard box covering this to keep it dark. This affair sits in a larger maternity tub over a UTH set on lowest possible setting. The larger maternity tub has a couple inches of aspen bedding and a small water bowl. The maternity tubs are in the quietest place in my house. I figure if she goes in the moss tub and stays in it she likes it. She will come out and crawl around a bit and drink water, but not restless or searching. She is by herself in the maternity tub. I have one big female left who is due to have her pre-lay shed soon; instead of taking her out of her regular home she shares with her mate and sister I could maybe try just letting her use the moss tub in the cage.

They get these tubs all year round to also aid in proper shedding. The babies really like them to feel secure and retain hydration.

If you have any pictures or diagrams of pyro wild nests that would be awesome.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

How about trying to fill her whole cage she is in now with the same nesting mixture, which is not normal to them. You can see if anything comes out different, then next year try a substrate that is more natural to them.

If I were to question your reply I would do it like this.

1. What is an appropriately size nest box and why?
2. what makes you think she likes it? if you took the nest box out she would lay in the water bowl, would you say she liked that?

The point, I now gave you a realisitic method to gauge what they like, how long they hold the eggs. You know the maximum, how about looking into the minimum.

I would say, the minimum sized SMALL nesting would be a 16 quart sterilite box, and it would help if the sides were painted out to allow the feeling of total darkness.

A couple of things I would like to ask you. Do you think they have a sense of in, out, under, up, etc. If they do, how does that apply to their behavior in nature.

If they had no sense of in and out and up and down, how come they are not all over the place in their natural habitat?

With your fence lizards, did they lay eggs willy nilly? and after you turned them loose, did they go around willy nilly? What did they do? So why do you think your snakes have less of this sense then those lizards?(lizards are great teachers of reptile behavior)

THe problem is us, we have weird priorities, like you somehow think a nest box, goes in another box. maturity box. Or most think a nest box goes in its normal sweater box. When in fact, none of that thinking relates to what the animals actually do or want.

In nature, these animals go to rookeries(nesting areas) in the late fall, stay there all winter, breed in the spring, hold the eggs and lay them RIGHT NOW(mid may for pyros around here) All that time is spend in the maturity area( i do like your term and my adopt it) They will stay in these areas until the reproduction season is over, then Expand there range to include a greater access to prey(if necessary)

I will do my "normal" and add more, more, more, hahahahahahahahaha

what is important about this is, wild pyros are a product of constant culling. Any individual that does not make these decisions prefectly, is erased out of the population. And a good percentage of those that do make these decisions perfectly are also culled out. If in nature they hold the eggs a day or two to long, they are culled. Or put them in the wrong place, they are culled.

Aprox 95% of all pyros that hatch in nature will not make it to adulthood. Of that five percent, they are under constant pressure to Stay by making the right decisions. Then something changes like lack of rain or too much rain, then a percentage of that five percent is erased from the colony. So what you have is the right of the right. an example with pyros is. Pyros live in rocks and in the ground and in dead trees. Or hollows in live trees. During periods of wet, you can find pyros commonly in trees, then drought comes and fires burn ALL those dead trees and hollows. So that option is erased along with the pyros that used them. Whats left are the individuals that were safe down in. Not even those close to the surface. This is re-education of pyros, Fire taught them that trees in this enviornment, are a bad choice. They will be erased.

This is how nesting is developed, it has to be safe from the whims of nature. Their lives depend on that.

What you have in your cage is indeed the product of those whims and of nature. They are not a toy in a box. They are tens of thousands of years of those behavioral decisions.Best wishes

How about trying to fill her whole cage she is in now with the same nesting mixture, which is not normal to them. You can see if anything comes out different, then next year try a substrate that is more natural to them.
What is a more natural substrate than moss? Dirt?

If I were to question your reply I would do it like this.

1. What is an appropriately size nest box and why?
Big enough for her to move around in and lay her eggs in comfort.

2. what makes you think she likes it? if you took the nest box out she would lay in the water bowl, would you say she liked that?
I think she likes it because she uses it, and probably would resort to the water bowl if offered no alternative. Its like a person sleeping on the floor if someone took the mattress away. Terrible analogy but will have to do.

The point, I now gave you a realisitic method to gauge what they like, how long they hold the eggs. You know the maximum, how about looking into the minimum.

I would say, the minimum sized SMALL nesting would be a 16 quart sterilite box, and it would help if the sides were painted out to allow the feeling of total darkness.
Well, some of my nest boxes are that big. All my nest boxes are covered with a cardboard box to provide total darkness.
A couple of things I would like to ask you. Do you think they have a sense of in, out, under, up, etc. If they do, how does that apply to their behavior in nature.

If they had no sense of in and out and up and down, how come they are not all over the place in their natural habitat?
I definitely think they have a sense of orientation.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

post limit...
If you put them on the space shuttle in zero gravity that would be interesting to see how they nest and lay eggs there, albeit cruel in my opinion.

With your fence lizards, did they lay eggs willy nilly? and after you turned them loose, did they go around willy nilly? What did they do? So why do you think your snakes have less of this sense then those lizards?(lizards are great teachers of reptile behavior)
The fence lizards did lay some eggs willy nilly until I figured out what they like, then no more willy nilly.

THe problem is us, we have weird priorities, like you somehow think a nest box, goes in another box. maturity box. Or most think a nest box goes in its normal sweater box. When in fact, none of that thinking relates to what the animals actually do or want.

What you have in your cage is indeed the product of those whims and of nature. They are not a toy in a box. They are tens of thousands of years of those behavioral decisions.Best wishes
The summation of your post is eloquent in its simplicity and understanding of these wonderful little creatures.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

What a logical sequel to snakes on a plane! Sorry to bug in on what has been interesting and informative thread. Bob- your pyros look great. keep hatching out those high band counts! dave

LOL! What if Homer Simpson got on the space shuttle and broke the snake cage and all the snakes got loose and Kent Brockman thought they were invaders..."Hail to our new overlords!" Snakes would finally get the respect they deserve from humanity.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

What I am trying to get you to understand is, you do not have to make assumptions like, she likes it. There are measurable results that can tell you how much she likes it. AS I mentioned, if she lays the day after shedding, she is not held back by a poor choice. If she holds the eggs 14 days, then she is not finding what she wants. The degree or quality of nesting is somewhere inbetween. Day after, equals good, 14 days, is a long time to hold eggs needlessly. See what I mean.

As I said, you take good care, so your animals are strong enough to withstand delayed nesting. But as they age, they will at some point not withstand it.

The other point is, why cause them stress when you do not have to. Please understand, its not about the box, cardboard etc. Its measured in days. That is what you measure. Thanks and good luck

Well, one modification I am making now is introducing my gravid pre-lay blue females to the maternity cage and nest tub BEFORE they shed, with the idea that if she has more time to scope it out beforehand, she will shed and then lay sooner.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Thats a start, I wish you luck and great results. Cheers