Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone know the minimum breeding weight for pyros ?

2008 pyros in March 2011:
Dotz female: 215 grams
Mazar male: 150 grams
This pair bred for the first time in Spring of 2011. 7 good eggs

2008 pyros in February 2012:
Dotz female: 262 grams 7 good eggs
Mazar male: 234 grams

Zunchara female: 346 grams (she got really big due partly not breeding until more mature) 10 good eggs
Zane male: 142 grams

They have all bred this year as well:
Dotz laid 10 eggs.
Zunchara is still gravid.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Thanks Bob,i thought around the 200g mark and your results confirm it,although it also shows that the bigger they are the more eggs you get!

Zunchara weighs almost a kilo now, so I am looking forward to seeing how many eggs she produces this time! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I think you guys are so wrong, or at least narrow minded. First off, different populations do have different normal average length, which means, your weight is pretty much worthless.

This can be as much as 50% difference. Some populations commonly have gravid females in the 18 to 24 inch range. Others, in the 36 to 48" range.

Also, precocious females, that is ones that reproduce at a small size and young age, are a very normal and important part of their reproductive stradegy.

Their small size and weight, allows for reproduction when times are hard. Large females may not find the support to reproduce, but small individuals can. When times are good, both small and large females reproduce.

In captivity, weight and such is based of crappy husbandry. that is, smaller females do not have the mass to withstand the stress of poor husbandry, specifically poor nesting. So yes, they can be problematic. I find it odd, that folks would rather bandaid the problem, then fix it, USE BETTER NESTING(and feed more)(if you feed more, they won't stay small).

Also, when supported, precocious females grow very quickly even during reproduction. If they don't, its the effects of poor husbandry, not about the animal.

Here's the truth, Husbandry means to support in a normal fashion. It does not mean support to an inferior level, based on the effort of the keeper.

continued

Here's the deal, each and every individual snake, has a genetic potential of growth and reproduction. That's its natural ability, If they cycle, its NATURAL.

The above was nice and stuff, this isn't, Are there snake cops out there arresting male snakes for copping the young ones. Dudes, no there isn't, in nature, they cycle, they emit pheromones they attract a male and they are copulated, size is not questioned. Those that failed were genetically erased from the gene pool. What's left is normal. Get with the normal. Improve your husbandry to support what is NORMAL. Cheers and best of luck

How does asking about breeding weights imply that my husbandry is wrong?I'm sorry but just putting them together,leaving them get on with it then hoping it all goes well and the female survives because its NORMAL is not good enough! I asked because i care about my females and WILL NOT hope for the best and would like to breed them when its considered safe!

First off, its not about WRONG, you making it about that, ends learning right away. We, keepers, are wrong all the time.

Here's the point, to reproduce, a female must cycle. When they cycle, they produce ovum, that ovum enlarges, they copulate, fertilize that ovum to become eggs, then lay them. You or I putting a male in with them, is aside from that.

Weight has nothing to do with it. If a female cycles, she cycles. To not allow her to copulate, is far harder on them physically, then to allow them to copulate and lay normally.

Now if your question was, at what length and weight do pyros start to reproduce. You can receive a useful answer. You know, something to use as a guide to allow you to not miss a cycle.

Heres something else to think about it. A common recommended weight is 200Grs. Hmmmmmmm that's a dang big pyro in nature, with many wild gravid females in 80 to 100gr range.

Reproduction is based on AGE, length and weight. Some old females are in the 125 to 150 gram range, and some first time females can be over 200gr. It depends on support.

So in reality, your question is not so much about the actual animals and the answers, were also not very good either. Not when applied to the actual animal.

But, if that makes you happy, go with it. Best of luck

Ah i can sort of see where you are coming from now,my apologies.I have two 2011 females which i was told were slow growers,which they do appear to be even though they are excellent feeders and are fed every few days they are around 2ft in length,my male on the other hand is 2006 and is 4ft.Would they be safe to pair up?With the size difference i mean!

If those females were my snakes I'd wait until next year to breed them. 2011's are a bit young; another year will put them in a better position for breeding.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Ok thanks Bob,your the only one to answer my questions with anything useful!

Yep....it's like trying to get some simple straight answers from the "Riddler"....it won't ever happen. The endless ramblings only serve as a very BORING sleep aid.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Heh Heh...truth be told...
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

And your the heckler, hahahahahaha, I have one point to make. Keepers really should make their own decisions. I offered what they do, in nature. The keeper can and should do whatever he wants. The actual decision is always on the keeper.

So what if he waits until next year and one dies from being egg bound. Actually its already late, so I doubt they will cycle now. Or if the male eats one or both of his females next year. So whos at fault?? Bob?????? heck no, its the keepers fault. Hes is responsible for making his own decisions, I hope it works out well for him.

ALso, if you go and attack me again, off to the mod you go. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Huh????...."attack"?? As was mentioned, just the simple truth being told in a somewhat comical way. Your condescending ramblings only make you somehow feel superior about yourself. Because it definitly never makes anyone ever go away feeling like they learned anything from your ridiculous banter. That is the truly sad part, and exactly why it is a complete ghost town.

Anyway, enjoy being the big captain of your sinking ship. Same with your other rust bucket, the "USS Hognose Forum".

bon voyage~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's your problem, you think its all about captains and ships, These are forums for the care of animals.

You always make it about people and whatever social ladder you climb. To bad, I don't.

It is too bad this ship is sinking, but its not my ship. But then, I guess you never understood that, or that these forums are first about animals.

That what I say is a riddle to you, is very much a compliment. Thanks

I have actually missed the "ahem" lively discussion in this forum, what with the misunderstandings and insults. This place is sort of like the biker bar on the highway, whereas Facebook is the upscale trendy more polite bar with the ferns and such.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

"Like" to the above comment.

Zappa and his two ladies Zula and Zena. This is a '10 trio of unrelated male and two sisters. Next year I expect they will be big enough to choose to breed. They have been a tad slow on the growth but this year seem to be making up for lost time in that regard, really beefing up.

I like everyone to be the same size for breeding, more or less. Also I cohabitate my pyros so when they get big enough they can breed as it suits them. Three years old seems to be the minimum age; depends on how fast they grow. Some are predisposed to be slower growing than others but they all get there eventually.

Your '11 girls just seem to need another year or so before they mate with your big beefy male. If they are too small he may think they are dinner, not dates!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Yeah i get what your saying about the size difference Bob and will probably wait until they are bigger just in case. I don't believe in this its probably too late to cycle crap as i have a 20 year old cali that bred for me last year for his first time

I'm thinking what was meant by too late to cycle is it is too late in the season, not that the snake is too old. The window for ovulation and breeding is from early spring to late spring for pyros.

Feed your trio generously this summer. The window for feeding is spring to late summer. Then they tend to go off feed for the season.
Brumate your girls and the boy (really important for male fertility!) and give them a go next spring, you should be blessed with babies.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

HOLY SMOKES!!,....the ridiculously high band-counts on those things, as well as the bicoloreds in there are just OUTSTANDING!!!!....WOW!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

This big mama is in the process of laying her 2013 clutch right this moment. Can barely contain myself from disturbing her! Will check this evening and get pics, after she is safely done laying.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Hi again Bob, heres my point, with the support you give your animals and armed with the actual knowledge of their reproductive biology, just think how good you could be.

As it is, your passing along old wifes tails as husbandry.

I am sure if you do this long enough, you will learn all on your own.

To put it in perspective, by 1976 when they placed restrictions of az wildlife, I had six generations of pyros at my facility.

What I am trying to get you to think about is, their actual biology. Not a recipe or protocol that works. As of now, your doing this and that, and doing a great job, but when it is about the animals and not about you?

The point is, if a female cycles at 14 months, then is it not your task to support that, or learn to support that????? As that is what they naturally do.

For instance, you stated, your animal got larger and laid larger clutches. Don't you think if you changed your husbandry and supported precocious females, they too would still grow and do the same. You see, that is the point. If supported, precocious females will continue to grow, even when gravid.

If you learn how to support that. That gives you sir, one more trick in your bag of tricks. It gives you choices and the ability to surface the actual genetics and potential of these animals, and not what results from controlled limited husbandry.

the point is, wild animals, have no future, or at least its not guaranteed. If they can breed at 14 months, they do. If conditions support reproduction and growth, they do that, If a coati mundi eats them, theyre done, game over.

The question becomes, You are doing what you want and your happy, so if a 14 month old female cycles, isn't that what she wants(so to speak) which leads me to this, who are to to not support what she wants??????

I have said, sir your doing a great job at supporting what you want, so why not do that same great job and support what the animals actually are????

My philosophy is if it ain't broke don't fix it. So as long as my animals are healthy and produce healthy young, I am going with the tried and true husbandry I have learned over the last few years.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Bob, that's not the point, the point is learning about the animals. You can still do whatever you want.

Whats interesting to me is, you refuse to acknowledge the biology of the snakes. best wishes

If I ignored the biology of the snakes they would either all be dead or not producing any viable young. I am not able to go to the pyros' native habitats and poke around for years doing field observations. All I have is my captive population and my observations of them. So far so good. Of course this could be interpreted as what the guy who fell off the Empire State Building said as he passed each floor: So far so good...
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

My last attempt for you.

The biology is, females cycle, you do not cycle them. You can and do prevent them from cycling. Or at least you try. They can and do normally cycle, starting at 14 months aprox.

The problem is, a young female WILL cycle, and you thinking your in control, do not allow her access to a male. Then your going to see problems. Problems that easily could have been prevented.

Young females do reproduce normally, but they cannot withstand poor nesting. Your time of 14 days after the pre egg laying shed, indicates poor nesting.

Pyros can and do easily reach 30 to 36 inches in a year. Or they can reach 24 to 30 inches, reproduce, then grow to four foot the next year. If supported. That is their normal potential, what you do is what conditions they are forced to live in.

The truth is, I could care less if your pyros take four years to reach maturity. I do care about you losing animals due to ignorance. I am giving you the benefit of ignorance, as stupidity is when you know something and still keep making the same mistake.

Heres another problem, many here say, FR thinks hes this or that, or god or whatever. Yet, all I say is, the snakes, are this and that. Its about the snakes, not me. AND all you guys say is, I do this and I do that, its you that make it about people and yourselves, in this case, you.

So I will end with, your now aware of the problem, what YOU do is entirely up to you. Now if you make THIS mistake, its not because you ignorant.

Whats sad is, you do such a good job, you have learned so well, yet you somehow think you cannot keep learning. Best of luck with that. Cheers

Whats sad is, you do such a good job, you have learned so well, yet you somehow think you cannot keep learning. Best of luck with that. Cheers
Why do I get the feeling I am in a debate with a contrarian?
Anyways, So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

“But the reason I call myself by my childhood name is to remind myself that a scientist must also be absolutely like a child. If he sees a thing, he must say that he sees it, whether it was what he thought he was going to see or not. See first, think later, then test. But always see first. Otherwise you will only see what you were expecting.”
― Douglas Adams, So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Great quote, and exactly right, only you have to look to see. Your not looking at the animal, your telling the animal what you want it to do.

The reality is that, your saying, breed when I tell you to breed. Your not asking, are you ready to breed and if so, what can I do to support it. Cheers and best of luck

" My philosophy is if it ain't broke don't fix it. So as long as my animals are healthy and produce healthy young, I am going with the tried and true husbandry I have learned over the last few years."

Bob,

You are doing a wonderful job, and have had wonderful and sound advice in this thread. " Wanna-Bes " in this hobby may try to come along with discouragement, and raining-on-your-parade posts that serve nothing but that itching of their ego. Don't let it ruin one thing for you. You have great animals that are doing great, and you have a great attitude, that is so welcome on this forum. Keep up the outstanding work.
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks for the kind words, Billy!

The last thing I would want to do is pass on bad advice to newbies. I really didn't get the supporting 14 month old females so they would breed thing FR said. At that age mine are just going into brumation, and that is when I put the future breeding pairs and trios together (all of same size), so they can grow up together and a couple years after that will breed.

I do think about ideas people present. Sometimes its not just a walk in the park, though! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

" I really didn't get the supporting 14 month old females so they would breed thing FR said."

That is all about attention seeking and NOT about the animals. Bad science. Another reason why this forum gets laughed at.

You are doing great.
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Genesis 1:1

Remind you of someone?
“Having not said anything the first time, it was somehow even more difficult to broach the subject the second time around.”
― Douglas Adams, So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

Thanks again for the support!

Pyro 2013 clutches; 34 fertile eggs!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

7 plus 10 plus 13 does not equal 34...argh!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

All I ask is to look at the animal, what is it biologically doing? Its not about me or you, its about the snakes.

All you say is, I this, I that, I the other. This is the point.

You silly folks turn it around by saying FR this and that. All FR is saying is LOOK AT THE ANIMAL. If its biologically ready to do something, then who the heck are you to suppress that(there is danger in doing that)?

What is bothersome, is this acting like its the beginning, you know. Madonna, its like the very first time. Sirs, that time was forty years ago, so why are you acting like its the first time?

THe point, and why I stopped breeding colubrids was very much this, the sweater box mentality. You say, look at what I did this way.

Let me point out, such folks as Reptile industries and others, produce upwards of 250,000 colubrids a year, in an industrial setting. Its not about that. Your a hobbyist, so why are you treating caged animals in a (in your case, semi-production method) You do care and take good care, so I can coach you to do something for the animals. Yet you fight it tooth and claw.

Have I given you too much credit???? are you at your limit? Or is CONTROL your issue?

On the otherhand, maybe you cannot SEE any options to support a better life for your captives? If that's the case, then just say, I am doing the best I know how. That sir is a great end to this. Now you know theres more and theres nothing you can do to forget it.

No matter what I say about how I care for my snakes you will tell me I am doing it wrong because I am not considering the snakes, but am instead making it all about me. Well. I am fatigued of this topic so think what you like of my husbandry skills or lack thereof, I give up.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

All I have said is, how well you take care of your snakes. Learn to read sir.

With one minor exception, nesting. And the associated fear of failure with young females.

So I ask, look at their biology, which in this case means, if a young female cycles and they can when well supported. You going to what, not support her with a male. Which is far harder on females then reproducing normally.

You won't look at that, check into that, etc etc, Well sir, that shows your true interest. Which is fine. As you can see, the vast majority of folks that keep snakes, do not care about the snakes, they care about their wishes and needs.

All you have to do is learn to tell when a female cycles. Its easy. Yet, you will not even ask how?

I do not like going here, but it seems you do not want anyone to know there is something your NOT aware of. Dude, We all have so much to learn about these wonderful creatures, yet you are too good to ask or learn.

The reason I push you so hard is, you do what you know well. You would be really good, it only you would learn. Cheers

I put my females with a male when they are about 14 months old, which is at the commencement of brumation. They grow up together. So if there is going to be any cycling the following season they are already together. No matter how much I feed them or how good their habitat they always go to at least almost three years old more like three and a half years before anybody mates. I did recently pair up my '12 hold backs into 6 pairs, having determined their gender correctly. So if anybody wants to mate this fall when they are 14 months old there is already one male per female in each habitat...well, the timing is all off and no matter how big they get this summer if they actually cycled and bred when they actually turn 14 months old I will be extremely surprised. Normally I would have put the pairs together this fall but decided to do it now to get rid of a bunch of surplus caging.
I do not realistically expect them to breed for a couple more years at least.

A lot of what you say does not make sense to me...sorry. But you are interesting, in a deer in the headlights sort of way.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Pyro,
I think what FR is trying to do is get you to think outside of the box. I think experimenting with these ideas will help you understand by seeing rather than believing.

And what he says about the basic biology of a female is true.

It is fun to find out. So just have fun with it and then it will be common place.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

If my 14 month old snakes breed at that age I will believe it when I see it. They are cohabitated and nobody has ever bred any earlier than at about 2 and a half years of age, even though they had a male available. Its not like they were too scrawny or weak, either. Once they do breed they lay nice big clutches with nearly 100% hatch rate.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Once they do breed they lay nice big clutches with nearly 100% hatch rate.

I don't see what the age or size has to do with 100 percent hatch rat? That is just a matter of having the sperm avaliable when the female ovulates. Small size or young age has nothing to do with a lower hatch rate or infertilty. So I did not understand your correlation.
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"So I will end with, your now aware of the problem, what YOU do is entirely up to you. Now if you make THIS mistake, its not because you are ignorant."

Frank Retes

I didn't see this post until now as this thread has gotten so long it's tail is almost out of the picture! LOL! I am guessing it is now big enough to breed if it can find another long convoluted thread...
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

i care about my females and WILL NOT hope for the best and would like to breed them when its considered safe!

There is no "safe". As FR said they either breed or they don't.

Snakes are not be compared to humans as plants can't be compared to insects. They are just different.

Maybe I am assuming things here but i get that people think this way because of >...?

It is amusing, I dunno. Is it dog breeds? Folks compare to their snakes to dogs? Or how do these rumors or terms like powerfeeding, breeding to early and so many other terms get put out there?
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis

I somehow have the feeling that the biology of the animals is totally put aside, in the name of rules made without looking at the animal. Doe that make sense.

Which is why I get whined at. Folks do not want to actually understand what the animals ARE DOING, they just want to know a number. Then when that number does not work, they YELL, what happened. I did what "so and so" said.

My point is, its not about "so and so" or me, its about the animal, there biology is easy. Learn it, then you are free to do what you want or whats fun, or anything you like. YOu can have fun, which is what keeps you going. THe blind keeping will soon become very very boring. Cheers

feel superior about yourself? LOL! That Dmong! HA HA HA!

He is just wishing he could win an argument he already lost 1000x over.
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"the fact of the matter is if folks want "pure" types they should go snake hunting. or at least do some research on potential breeding stock and not just pick anything up anywhere show/petshop"

Thomas Davis