Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,

I have had ten (10) eggs incubating since April 4th, they have all looked great all along and should be hatching any day. I had been incubating at 75-77* all along until Saturday the 8th of June where I increased the temperature by one degree; increased again on the 12th, the 14th, and again today (16th) - one degree each day.

Contrary to a source or two I read in the beginning of all of this, I have not added water to the vermiculite - partially because I had started off the moisture ration greater than typical at 1:1 1/3 vermiculite to water (id est, 6 oz of vermiculite to 8 oz of water); also because the brand new Exo-Terra Incubator I purchased in April has been holding the moisture well, with my hygrometer reading 88-89% all along.

I poked the vermiculite this evening to test the moisture content, and it appears alright, maybe slightly dry. But again, the eggs look great, the hygrometer reads high, and there is clearly plenty of water/moisture in the incubator.

Still, does anyone advise I pour a little water around the perimeter of the vermiculite? I'm just hesitant because I'm right at the end, and I'd hate to screw anything up. I am obviously inquiring because in most cases, the eggs would've hatched by now; however, again recall that I had been incubating at lower temperatures all along (still, within the range of most sources), and also...

These eggs are technically Lampropeltis getula californiae (Mother, an albino "banana" ) x L. g. splendida (Father), and her pre-laying shed was on March 20 = 15 days before laying = longer than typical for L. g. californiae. Thus, being an intergrade may also contribute to the delay in hatching??

Please share Your thoughts, experiences and advice, and thanks in advance for any and all input, and I anxiously await it.

Sincerely,
Timothy

*I am using the Exo-Terra incubator which states in the instructions there can be a ~5 degree difference between what the thermometer reads (situated at top of incubator evidently) and where the eggs actually are = ~6" lower. Sure enough, the incubator had been set at 80 all along (plus-minus 2 degree fluctuation), and the Exo-Terra Combometer--stuck to the inner window pane at egg-level--had read 75-77. With the first three (3) increases, the Combometer has read the appropriate temperature as expected.
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T.J. Gould

Too much thought into this. Just put the eggs onto moist vermiculite in a tuppaware container with a pinhole for air and set them in the snake room. No need for an incubator. No need to raise temps at the end of incubation. My snake room is anywhere between the high 70's to mid 80's. Eggs will hatch between 60-70 days.

You are making this way more difficult than is needed.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Truth is, I'm an analytical nut, perfectionist and paranoid by nature. Yet, I know Mother Nature isn't perfect in the human notion of perfectionism (She is perfect and ultimate otherwise). I suppose my logic with increasing the temperature (only four (4) degrees over nine (9) days mind You, to ~80) was that the season obviously increases, and Nature's aforementioned perfection includes fluctuation.

I have kept snakes since 21 November 1991 (>21.5 years) to be precise yet haven't bred Lampropeltis getula californiae since 1999; these are my girlfriend's snakes which have lived with me since acquisition on 11-29-09 (Mother)/4-11-10 (Father), and I decided to spontaneously propagate them for Our enjoyment.

I, personally, specialize in rare and unusual serpents - namely opisthoglyphous/aglyphous since 5 January 2001 (exempli gratia, Boiga), also specialty-eaters since 2000 (e.g., Dasypeltis), and the aquatic genus Acrochordus (see link) since September 2004. Thus, I'm a little 'rusty' with the common genera, so please excuse my annoyance upon You...

As I am an unorthodox naturalist with my animals--id est, researching and simulating micro- and macro-habitats the best I can though can never be precise, this I know; also supplementing varied diets as would naturally be instead of taking the cheap and lazy way out with constant mice, and feeding my creatures only what they will naturally take on their own at that (e.g., Heterodon platyrhinos and anurans)--I simply tried applying my logic with the temperature increase. Sorry You thought it preposterous.

Since Your post, I had decreased one degree each on the 17th and 18th. It has been 77 days for Your information...maybe now, You won't wonder why I was curious, concerned and experimental; yet the eggs still look great.

Can intergrade-eggs, and incubated 5-7 degrees lower than most breeders, really push the hatching date this much???
Acrochordus granulatus aka Little Filesnake Caresheet

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T.J. Gould

I totally agree with Kerby. I have to ask, where on earth did get the idea that you needed to do all that and be all exacting and such?

The key to strong eggs is, good nesting. You don't want the female to hold the eggs to long. On the otherhand, that your eggs have gone this far, indicates they were fine. Be patient and stop with the messing. If the eggs dent in a bit, Great, that's normal(particularly in nature) Just don't allow them to shrivel up over 50% of their size.

Again, where did you get the idea you had to do all that? Thanks and best wishes

Truth is, I'm an analytical nut, perfectionist and paranoid by nature. Yet, I know Mother Nature isn't perfect in the human notion of perfectionism (She is perfect and ultimate otherwise). I suppose my logic with increasing the temperature (only 4 degrees over nine (9) days mind You, to ~80) was that the season obviously increases, and Nature's aforementioned perfection includes fluctuation.

I have kept snakes since 21 November 1991 (>21.5 years) to be precise yet haven't bred Lampropeltis getula californiae since 1999; these are my girlfriend's snakes which have lived with me since acquisition on 11-29-09 (Mother)/4-11-10 (Father), and I decided to spontaneously propagate them for Our enjoyment.

I, personally, specialize in rare and unusual serpents - namely opisthoglyphous/aglyphous since 5 January 2001 (exempli gratia, Boiga), also specialty-eaters since 2000 (e.g., Dasypeltis), and the aquatic genus Acrochordus (see link) since September 2004. Thus, I'm a little 'rusty' with the common genera, so please excuse my annoyance upon You...

As I am an unorthodox naturalist with my animals--id est, researching and simulating micro- and macro-habitats the best I can though can never be precise, this I know; also supplementing varied diets as would naturally be instead of taking the cheap and lazy way out with constant mice, and feeding my creatures only what they will naturally take on their own at that (e.g., Heterodon platyrhinos and anurans)--I simply tried applying my logic with the temperature increase. Sorry You thought it preposterous.

Since Your post, I had decreased one degree each on the 17th and 18th. It has been 77 days for Your information...maybe now, You won't wonder why I was curious, concerned and experimental; yet the eggs still look great.

Can intergrade-eggs, and incubated 5-7 degrees lower than most breeders, really push the hatching date this much???
Acrochordus granulatus aka Little Filesnake Caresheet

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T.J. Gould

Don't overthink things. These are snakes eggs and are tough as nails. I had a kingsnake clutch in my garage get down to 44F one year and they still hatched. I think your biggest concern should be overheating and not cold. Heat kills. Same thing goes with shipping in winter versus summer.

You have to think in nature that eggs get very cold. I have found eggs in tree stumps with frost. So they can withstand all sorts of temperature fluctuations. Heck, for all we know this might be good for them.

Just throw the eggs on some damp perlite and forget about them. Doesn't matter the temperature. As long as it is not in a hot car or shed where the temps get too hot.

So what if they hatch a few days either way because of temperature. The snakes will still be healthy.

PS
After hatching eggs with no care I could never understand the concept or reasoning behind folks who want to build a "INCUBATOR" with the exception they are extremely anl..
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"So I will end with, your now aware of the problem, what YOU do is entirely up to you. Now if you make THIS mistake, its not because you are ignorant."

Frank Retes

"An elaborate set up or an expensive device is not necessary to hatch snake eggs. Snakes have been reproducing in the wild for millions of years, at times under quite adverse conditions." (Kingsnakes and Milksnakes by Ronald G. Markel & R. D. Bartlett, Barron's 1995, p. 83.)

Trust me, I know reptile eggs are tough, and herps are quite adaptable, so I'd presume their eggs to be adaptable; however, maybe You should know it has been 86 days = 22+ over the average despite ~7 degree-less-incubation-temperature...does everything sound okay still???

Also, at 23:36 last night (Friday the 28th), I noticed an egg dimpled. At 14:30 today, a second is dimpled.

I know some species' eggs dimple before hatching, but do You have any idea if Lampropeltis getula ssp. are among them? If so, how long before hatching do they dimple? And what do the dimples look like compared to low-moisture/humidity dimpling? (I've tried searching Google images to no avail.)

...and that's my concern: low moisture. Truth is, the Exo-Terra incubator has been holding ~88% humidity all along (indicated by ET's Combometer), and You can see the water (below) and moisture (dew drops) on the front window. Also, when I had made the vermiculite mixture, I actually did 1:1 1/3 vermiculite to water, or 6 oz of vermiculite to 8 oz of water. I hadn't added moisture once the whole incubation period, but I also didn't open the incubator at all neither, not till the past week a few times.

It's been 3 months...I don't think even 1/3 over on the initial moisture would last this long despite the optimum ambient humidity...

Perhaps I should also make mention that the clutch was/is one big adhering mass nearly upright save one egg that is horizontal, which happens to make the dimples (on the sides by the way) more questionable. I should have pictures later. Sorry, but I haven't had my main computer since the 15th and will need to upload through girlfriend's.

What are Your thoughts now??? Think adding a thin stream of water around the perimeter of the egg box is OK?
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T.J. Gould

Wow, that was cool. And it does not bother me in anyway. After all is said and done, its not about all that wonderful stuff you mentioned. Its only about this, to make something simple, complicated, is not perfect. Its the opposite of perfect. not perfect not perfect. Therefore, you must destroy yourself.

Or at least that's what that Star Trek movie indicated you must do. Or at least what spock had to convince Verger to do. Kirk was the creator, Kirk is not perfect, therefore, V'erger is not perfect, etc. Must destroy must destroy!

The point is, all said and done, The complication of simplicity is not about perfection. Its about human control issues. Or better yet, about nothing. Perfection is indeed those eggs, dinking with them is simply playing around and not a thing to do with the eggs or perfect or perfection. Cheers

Or at least that's what that Star Trek movie indicated you must do. Or at least what spock had to convince Verger to do. Kirk was the creator, Kirk is not perfect, therefore, V'erger is not perfect, etc. Must destroy must destroy!

Agree, simpler is better.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

"An elaborate set up or an expensive device is not necessary to hatch snake eggs. Snakes have been reproducing in the wild for millions of years, at times under quite adverse conditions." (Kingsnakes and Milksnakes by Ronald G. Markel & R. D. Bartlett, Barron's 1995, p. 83.)

Trust me, I know reptile eggs are tough, and herps are quite adaptable, so I'd presume their eggs to be adaptable; however, maybe You should know it has been 86 days = 22+ over the average despite ~7 degree-less-incubation-temperature...does everything sound okay still, Smart-Ass???

Also, at 23:36 last night (Friday the 28th), I noticed an egg dimpled. At 14:30 today, a second is dimpled.

I know some species' eggs dimple before hatching, but do You have any idea if Lampropeltis getula ssp. are among them? If so, how long before hatching do they dimple? And what do the dimples look like compared to low-moisture/humidity dimpling? (I've tried searching Google images to no avail.)

...and that's been my concern: low moisture. Truth is, the Exo-Terra incubator has been holding ~88% humidity all along (indicated by ET's Combometer), and You can see the water (below) and moisture (dew drops) on the front window. Also, when I had made the vermiculite mixture, I actually did 1:1 1/3 vermiculite to water, or 6 oz of vermiculite to 8 oz of water. I hadn't added moisture once the whole incubation period, but I also didn't open the incubator at all neither, not till the past week a few times.

Yes, Mother Nature is perfect, the eggs can take care of themselves and whatnot, and so on...but t's been 3 months...I don't think even 1/3 over on the initial moisture would last this long despite the optimum ambient humidity...

Perhaps I should also make mention that the clutch was/is one big adhering mass nearly upright save one egg that is horizontal, which happens to make the dimples (on the sides by the way) more questionable. I should have pictures later. Sorry, but I haven't had my main computer since the 15th and will need to upload through girlfriend's.

What are Your thoughts now??? Think adding a thin stream of water around the perimeter of the egg box is OK?
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T.J. Gould

If your eggs are now beginning to dimple they will soon pip. If you have beads of condensation in your incubator you should not need to add water at this point. Sometimes eggs take longer than what would seem normal. I once had a clutch of fence lizard eggs take 90 days, when the average is 55 days, but they all hatched.

Pyro eggs denting and pipping.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Well, perhaps I should have waited 2.5 hours, and I would have caught this message and given them more time, but at 20:00 Saturday evening, I pipped the first egg to find what appears to be a fully-developed and lively baby. On Sunday @ 14:26, I pipped the other nine (9) eggs to find fully-developed and lively babies. As of 01:50 "AM" this morning, none have come out of their eggs, not even heads sticking out. :/

It was a gamble situation for me, a judgement call I had to make, and a first-time hands-on experience for me in my near-22 years of keeping snakes (although I watched manual/assisted pipping when I worked for Regal Reptiles in 2004). The advisors for this decision was 1) a very knowledgeable and experienced herper in his 50s who I've known for 3+ years, and 2) the second comment by "oakelm" on this page: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/437201-cutting-open-eggs.html.

For the concerns addressed by "oakelm" (being way overdue, possible broken egg teeth, and/or eggs too thick), it is why I chose this path. It's not what I wanted; I would have rather Mother Nature take Her course, and the babies pipped...I always enjoy seeing cute heads sticking out. :/ Oh well.

Now, I was going to give the babies three (3) to come out (till Wednesday) before I go in, but I'm getting anxious and tempted to go in now...trying not to be hasty...what do You think??? I've been checking for their heads or coming out altogether, a few times a day, but no one yet.

Please advise what You think I should do. As though they pipped on their own, still in the yolk and connected to everything, they can't suffocate or anything, can they? I'm a ridiculously paranoid person, I'm sorry...

Thanks,
Timothy
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T.J. Gould

Once they pip they can take up to a week to actually emerge. Since you have already pipped the eggs, just leave them be. Anything done to them at this point I am afraid will do more harm than good.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

And that's what I've told everyone (especially my girlfirend whom, again, owns the parents; they just live with me, and I did all the work, haha): up to a week. I figured they may be even more stressed because they were unnaturally pipped (poor things will never get to experience it, heh) = even more so to leave them be.

Well, at 11:44 yesterday (Tuesday), two (2) heads were sticking out! At 00:29 early this wee hour morning, four (4) heads were sticking out!!
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T.J. Gould

Please keep us informed and pics would be nice, too!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Hello Bob,

And sorry for the delay. On July 3 which is when Your last response was, three (3) neonates had emerged! I of course spent my time situating and observing them. On July 4, five (5) more neonates emerged! And on July 5, the last two (2) neonates emerged!

Until I figure out how to upload pictures from my hard drive (...?), here are four links to videos showing the neonates' first meals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qID_l9aODug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYHqDDnHr6Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRhxP5WWj94
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU_FfdI6Wdw

Make sure to read the descriptions.

Some have already had their second meals. The others will be fed their second today.

So yeah; they're all perfectly healthy and doing well.
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T.J. Gould

That is wonderful! What nice babies! Your videos are very interesting and not bad for a cell phone!

How to upload images from your hard drive: get an account at Photobucket or some such image hosting site, and upload to that, and you will be provided a bb code link to use in these forums.

Or better yet get a Facebook account then you can just use the urls from that after directly uploading from your hard drive, no need for a separate image hosting site. You would have to bracket your urls with the img code for it to show up. It looks like this:

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Indeed, thank You! Heh, I don't know what You mean by "interesting" unless You watched ALL of my videos (of Flaps and Saw...yes; most people have normal videos of their "pets"; I, instead, make 'scientific' ones and have two more of Saw to upload soon).

Not all of the videos are with my iPhone, though. Only Part I of the four (4) baby videos is 100% iPhone; Part II and III are mostly (= time-wise) digital camera footage, and Part IV is all digital camera. The Flaps and Saw videos were taken with my digital camera.

Photo-uploading. I always make myself out to be dumber than I am LOL. Not that I am a tech-nut, but I was aware of hosting sites. I just wanted to confirm I wasn't missing anything on this screen that would allow me to upload straight from my HD. But FB will work, and here You go:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151547304386446.1073741832.630371445&type=1&l=3da8cc3322

I have a few more pictures I will upload in a 1/2-hour or so, after my shower. Check back soon.

And so, then, that's why my YouTube videos didn't show hyperlinked? Of course, You were able to copy/paste the links, but clicking would have been more convenient...I should have looked at the "Tools and Toys" more closely.

Timothy
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T.J. Gould

Nice bunch of photos at your Facebook page. cute little things!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

...I guess I had! Again, there should be a few more photos tonight, and more (detailed, specific ones) on Saturday or Sunday.

Thanks!! Your babies, again, are gorgeous!!

Sincerely,
Timothy
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T.J. Gould

>>Well, perhaps I should have waited 2.5 hours, and I would have caught this message and given them more time, but at 20:00 Saturday evening, I pipped the first egg to find what appears to be a fully-developed and lively baby. On Sunday @ 14:26, I pipped the other nine (9) eggs to find fully-developed and lively babies. As of 01:50 "AM" this morning, none have come out of their eggs, not even heads sticking out. :/
>>
>>It was a gamble situation for me, a judgement call I had to make

If I might suggest a methodology for future management issues: When you're not sure, try the "gamble" option on HALF (or some other fraction) of the whole. Both for the sake of the animals, and to enhance your learning opportunity, you might have pipped 3 one day, 3 two days later, 4 two days after that. Maybe a few would have started pipping after the first day and your intervention would have been displayed as unnecessary; maybe you'd have precipitated a lot of blood or otherwise concluded from the first three that you were acting prematurely, and you'd have been able to wait on the others; ETC. Anyway, i think a partial process would be better advised than the "all-in" effort, in similar future situations. It's not unlike the philosophy behind stock investments, or child rearing processes, or purchasing.

Good idea; don't f**k up the entire lot at once! LOL!

Hatching snake eggs is a Zen exercise, teaching patience and calmness. One is having a little window into a secret process normally not observable by man. The very human temptation to meddle with this natural process is what needs to be held in check.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Copied/pasted from my response to "rtdunham":

I will remember this, thank You. As I believe I stated, though (...?), I had only pipped one the first day (Saturday), and I planned to do the second dimpled/caved the next day, in which two more dimpled/caved the next day (Sunday), and...well, I went all out. :/

The signs were pretty clear to me (and another very experienced and knowledgable herper) that these were pre-hatching dimples/cavings, especially since it had been 87 days - they were just too coincidental. So, hence the gut feeling on the gamble/judgement call. The second comment by "oakelm" gave me the final push:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/437201-cutting-open-eggs.html

...which addressed legitimate concerns. But trust me: I would have rather Mother Nature take Her course like in past breedings I have done. I was just paranoid, concerned, and anxious.

***

Oh, and let Us not forget I am 29 and have been keeping serpents since 21 November 1991 (7 years old); bred Lampropeltis getula californiae from 1996-1999; started specializing in opisthoglyphous/aglyphous on 5 January 2001 (1.0 Chrysopelea ornata ssp.), specialty-eaters (exempli gratia, Dasypeltis) in 2003, and the aquatic genus Acrchordus in September 2004. I was the 'snake man' at Regal Reptiles in 2004 where I was responsible for many clutches. I have bred Heterodon nasicus since 2009, and here now is L. g. californiae x L. g. splendida on a whim, for enjoyment of creating Life. I also have a library greater than I can count, going back to my inception in the hobby, and six books behind (= indicative of newer books = newer knowledge) - college level, a few of them (e.g., Handbook of Venoms and Toxins of Reptiles by Stephen P. Mackessy). I don't like being undermined, patronized, condescended upon, belittled, overly criticized or ridiculed...

And I am quite the humble person...perhaps too humble for my own good; id est, I am capitalized upon by others, especially with the ever-growing arrogance within the herpetocultural hobby. At least I have enough character to humble my pride enough to seek out help instead of risking the cost of baby lives because "I didn't want to be embarrassed or humiliated". Perhaps You should All respect this. I have brought NO disrespect upon anyone else.

No one knows everything; there is always something to be learnt, and first-time hands-on experiences to be had. Manual/assisted pipping was good for me, and the babies are looking good thus far.

Sincerely,
Timothy
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T.J. Gould

"rtdunham",

I will remember this, thank You. As I believe I stated, though (...?), I had only pipped one the first day (Saturday), and I planned to do the second dimpled/caved the next day, in which two more dimpled/caved the next day (Sunday), and...well, I went all out. :/

The signs were pretty clear to me (and another very experienced and knowledgable herper) that these were pre-hatching dimples/cavings, especially since it had been 87 days - they were just too coincidental. So, hence the gut feeling on the gamble/judgement call. The second comment by "oakelm" gave me the final push:

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/437201-cutting-open-eggs.html

...which addressed legitimate concerns. But trust me: I would have rather Mother Nature take Her course like in past breedings I have done. I was just paranoid, concerned, and anxious.
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T.J. Gould