Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,

Have a corn and False Water Cobra, was thinking of trying a King - or Milk if it is the better choice - next for access by children.

What is a good choice in a King (or Milk) that stays reasonably small and well behaved (limited or no excitable poop/pee/musk) for younger handlers.

Thanks all!!

Hi !

If you want to keep a more tame kingsnake get a king of the mexicana-group, like mexmex, thayeri or greeri.They don`t fly off or strike at everything...

yours,
Michael

Thanks guys!

So a King ahead of a Milk then? I read also somewhere (but can't recall where) that the recommended beginner Kings were:

Mex-mex king
San Luis Potosi king (is this a Mex-Mex??)
Scarlet King
AZ Mtn King

Do you think if I went to a reptile show and asked a vendor with a selection of Kings for a Mex-Mex - would they know what was referring to?

Thanks!

Hi !

The San-Luis-Postosi Kingsnake is L.mexicana mexicana, short mexmex.
My other 2 suggestions were the :
-Nuevo-Leon or Variable Kingsnake( L.mexicana thayeri /L.leonis)
and the Durango-Mountain-Kingsnake (L.mexicana greeri).
Make sure you take one home that Feeds on mice!
All of the mexicanas are known as lizard-eaters...
Other good choices are the L.pyromelana or L.knoblochi.
Google for some pics and get what you like most!

yours
Michael

A Scarlet king is definitely NOT a snake you want for a beginning type of "pet" snake to be held, and especially by a child. They are typically VERY nervous and can often be difficult to get feeding. They would only be very stressed and not do well in this situation. This is actually one of the last types you would want for a handlable pet.

Also, Yes, the San Luis Potosi is very commonly known as "mex-mex". Most everyone that is familiar with kingsnakes knows them by that name. If they were not familiar with the name "mex-mex", I would move on and not even think of getting a kingsnake from that source at all. This is because you could easily be getting another type of king instead, or a cross of some type by the breeder/seller.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

mex mex
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

In my experience the most calm docile kings have been Desert Kings and Grey-Banded Kings. I've owned several and neither has ever been anything but a nice chill snake.

For milks, most start off as a little high strung as babies but will calm down after a year or so. the exception being the black milk. the handful of black milks i've seen and the 2 i own were as calm as could be right off the bat. However the black milk does get large for a milk... 5' seems to be the norm and i've heard of rare 7' animals, but have yet to see any.
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1.1 Argentine Boas
1.1 Dumerils Boas
1.1 Black Milk Snakes
2.3 California King Snakes
1.1 Nelsons Milk Snakes
2.2 Corn Snakes

We all have opinions, but where did all the getulus folks go. I would think a Fla. or Cal, even a Eastern would be great.

Yea, they can be nippy when a hatchling, but they soon outgrow that. And that would be a great lesson for kids to learn, you know, how to handle defensive snakes.

These kings are also much bigger but not too big. Kids tend to abuse things a bit, and these types of kings can take abuse, mex mex, not nearly as much.

Plus you do not have the problem of lizard feeders, etc. Best wishes

Thanks all for the replies! Keep them coming if anything pops into mind - like maybe if the all-black "Mexican Kingsnake" is also a recommended "Me-Mex" type.

Lastly - no one mentioned if a Milksnake was an equivalent choice..

Milksnakes not a good choice. High strung, nervous. Most do like to be handled. Their only real advantage is many are beautiful.
Florida kingsnakes excellent choice. They come in a variety of colors and tolerate handling very well. They also are easy to feed, inexpensive, readily available. Check out Doug Mong's website.

Milks do NOT like to be handled.

I second the Graybands.
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

I've kept Easterns, Californias, Deserts, Floridas and Eastern Blacks. I have found them all to be "bity" and seemingly always wanting food (which means they latch onto you and start chewing).

Mexican Black Kings (in my experience) are the only "common kings" that are really good as handleable "pets."

Some on the "uncommon kings" like gray bands and Mex-Mex are fine. Though in my opinion it's hard to beat a Nelson's Milk. They are tame, even as babies and the albinos can be quite attractive.

Tim

Third Eye Herp

Its kinda like when folks have dogs and then have the dogs train them. I have to say, if a snake is eating your hands, its telling you something. I kinda think that is very simple.

Its hungry, you have two options, feed it so it has no need to EAT YOUR HANDS, or lower the temps, so its burning less energy and does not need to eat so much. Its your choice. But to blame a snake for eating your hand. That's really wrong. You the keeper are to blame.

Also, just maybe you trained the snakes to eat your hands. Either way, not the snakes fault.

Nothing against the snakes you recommend, but I have kept cal kings for, Oh somewhere around 53 years and never had your problem, unless I starve the poor things. Cheers

When kept on a "level playing field" like corns, rat snakes milks, pines, etc., these have been my experiences. Same setup, same feeding schedule, etc.

If you need to feed a common king every day so it won't chew on you, then I'd say that would be a characteristic that would make it a less desirable pet than some other choices.

I've read posts in this forum as well as magazine columns where keepers of common kings were chewed on by their snakes. I know of several people who have experienced the same thing.

I don't recall ever reading a post about a corn snake, greyband, Nelson's milk, etc. chewing on it's owner's fingers because it was perpertually hungry.

Tim

Everyone's experiences can be very different and I respect yours, but I have kept all of the species you named, and none have been "bitey". I do feed the heck out of mine, and if well fed, they do not try to eat me. And they do not get obese unless fed too heavily after maturity. I believe in order to allow colubrids to reach their maximum potential (e.g. weight, length, reproductive capacity) they need to be very heavily when young. Works for me.

I think having a robust feeding response is a good thing for a children's pet snake. Feed it to the point of satiation as it grows, and one will be rewarded with a big strong adult snake.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Just my two cents but I think the problem occurs when the only time you interact with a robust feeder is feeding time. One can hardly blame a snake for flying out of the cage looking for food if the only time its looked in on is feeding time.

As Tim said if feeding time needs to be every day, that might not make the best first animal for someone which is the context of the discussion.

True, nature doesn't provide any form of level playing field but eliminating as many confounding variables and observing how behavior is affected by what remains is a legitimate if not outright scientific means of formulating a response.

What makes some of these forms more robust feeders when other variables are controlled for would be an interesting discussion. Off hand I would say species that are generalists and dispensers would would be more successful if possessed by a strong indiscriminate feeding response.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Point well taken on generalists and dispersers (assume you did not mean dispensers). The ultimate generalist and disperser in the US is probably the eastern indigo. They have a huge home range and of course they are famous for eating everything from toads to chewing on discarded shark heads.
Back to the OT, I cannot imagine a better first snake than a attractive yellow Florida kingsnake ("brooksi". They are just neat to handle and look cool enough to sustain a kids interest. If you are really concerned about their aggression, just hook them to get them out of the cage. Even though it is entirely unnecessary if they are fed adequately. Also, what is the disadvantage with a snake wanting to eat frequently? You can feed the hell out of a kingsnake for the cost of a coke every day (around $1). Besides, what kid does not love to see a snake pound down a mouse?

I'm firing my editorial staff!

Not in disagreement with you on the choice of first king. My first king was a plain Jane Fl king I picked up from Doctor's Pets in Baltimore. I loved that snake and had it for years.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Listen. Florida king (aka Brooks King) just rule.

They just do make the best all around , tough as nails and great personality captives..

It is not that they hold any one characteristic as high. they just hold ALL the characteristics equally. which people want in a single snake.

Kinda like a well rounded mixed martial artist. You can be great at one thing. But that won't make you champion at mixed martial arts. What makes the best is to have all the good qualities rolled into one. In that comparison makes a great MMA champion and also a great pet snake- The Florida kingsnake!!!!!!

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"So I will end with, your now aware of the problem, what YOU do is entirely up to you. Now if you make THIS mistake, its not because you are ignorant."

Frank Retes

I would suggest a cali as well. I had many of them back in the day, and never had any problem with biting or anything like that. I did feed them multiple prey items at a time, not just one or two, but until they quit eating. They are tame, good eaters, take a minimum amount of care to thrive, and come in great colors and patterns. My kids and grand kids all handled them constantly.

I'd stay away from pet shops though, get one from a respected breeder, or a reptile expo.

Acheela.
No disrespect to your position and I don't want to argue.
I think one of the underlying assumptions here is the acceptance that those that have experienced this are doing something wrong. Ex. Not enough food given, training by the pet that If they nibble on your finger you feed more. Ex. Reward.

I think that's a bad starting point. There can be other things perhaps.

I don't think folks that have never had this happen to them are in a position to venture out with judgements without the experience.

Folks like myself who've had it happen many times can't also discount the experience of folks who never have had it happen.

Factually you can find MANY youtubes of it happening.

Why it happens is a mystery for me I've tried to figure out with no success.

I assure you I have tried all manner of things to stop it from happening.

Fed to excess from the time they were hatchlings. Got giant yearlings and bloody hands.

Handled frequently and let them continue, hoping they would get over it so as not to reward the behavior. Still blood.

Hands washed before handing. More blood.

Avoiding any stimulating hand movements to provoke a bite.

Some of the more disheartening ones where animals that had never done it and while being handled just started to chew.

From spending time with a lot of Eastern Kings, I will tell you they are awesome intelligent animals that are feeding machines and I think may just have high aspirations.

Every time I see that Gary Larson carton where the two spiders are putting a web at the end of a kids sliding board and remark gleefully to each other that if they pull this off, they be set for a long time! , it reminds me of Kingsnakes.

Anyone that doesn't believe it happens regularly to folks can pretty much look at Chewey and Brian on [ban] on YouTube any time and see it. Clearly some of those animals are not handle other than for feeding but I don't believe that's necessarily the only/real reason.

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

To feel good about recommending a King for a kid.

I love them but as you see from this and many other videos on YouTube, its relatively common for whatever the reason it happens.

I think Corns and Pits are generally a wiser choice for a child.

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

I don't think we are likely to see him as an adult at a show.
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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Interesting that you recommend pits. I love pits; just hatched out a clutch of black pines. But they do get pretty large and are constantly on the move when handled. My black pines are around 7' and might be intimidating to a child, but they never bite. I also keep northern pines and they never bite either. But they are relatively huge (which is fine for me, not so much for most children).
I cannot explain why some people get chewed on by their getula and some do not. I have kept many over a long period of time and mine just have never chewed on me. At one time or another I have kept every typep of getula, except Outer Banks kings. Most were captive born from wild caught parents, some were just wild caught.

I appreciate your history of never having been chewed also your ability to be open about it despite your personal experience without condescending.

I love Black Pines and Norherns.

I am finding some of them to be gentle chill animals unless you're a rat.

I think even a lot of Ratsnakes are good ones too. Yes, some are cranky ornery animals no matter what you do but many respond to respectfull handling. Some gain enough trust that they change completely. Their bites tend to be honest. I feel I know where I stand and adjust if I'm taking too much for granted, got them on a bad day, ( works with Wives and Kids too) or they're just frightened.

There is no " betrayal " feeling going on where all of a sudden this placid snake starts chewing. There's something different about Kings.

I have tried all sorts of things to get them to stop doing it. They are beautiful animals.

If someone could explain it satisfactorily and show how they've stopped it repeatedly I'd love to hear/see it. But to insinuate folks that have had the problem are doing something wrong is a bad starting point.

I've even wondered if there is something different about the body chemistry of those that tend to get bit despite good care. Like some folks that play guitar. Some people have sweat that corrodes the strings and tuning pegs despite wiping. Others sweat but never have corrosion issues... ?

Something they normally eat?

Deodorant?

Inadvertent moving of the hand to cause a feeding response?

I know this and other things are kinda crazy sounding but I find the current theories of not feeding enough and handling enough fall very short of explaining it for me.

Bottom line is all our snakes are not little people. Animals sometimes just do unpredictable things sometimes for unknown reasons. Sometimes we figure it out, sometimes we don't.

A relative of mines first words were "stupid dog!" lol

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

For those folks blessed with never having been bitten in this manner.

The " look" starts happening around 1:30.
Can't give any background on last time it ate, what did his Hands smell like etc. but he is a science teacher in a class full of people apparently so one would realistically believe he would be as capable as a new child with their first snake.

No tantalizing hand movement that I saw. Body weight seems ok. Not starved. Not as heavy as I keep mine.
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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

This one, again for folks that haven't seen it....

Kingsnakes seem different.

My experience over the years is that if a Ratsnake or Black milk or some other normally trustworthy animal realizes they've gotten you, there's this OH CRAP! Moment where they re-evaluate and step back before continuing the attack. Not so much with Kings. They are driven and aggressive. They must be just awesome little tigers in the underbrush in their domain.

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Maybe it is just unnatural selection. The captive raised babies with the best feeding response (biters) are those most likely to grow quickly and reproduce in captivity and have their progeny sold. All of the kings I kept several years ago were wild caught by me or people I knew. That was the only way I had to acquire them. Ironically, these wild caught kings (mostly speckleds, blacks and Florida) were not biters. They settled down within minutes of capture. Mostly the only kings being raised commercially back then were California kings.

That is an impressive black pine. Clean, black specimens are hard to find.

Thanks Sir. Discern was a bad influence. Lol I have two pairs of 1/2 sibling Richter animals. I'm enjoying them a lot! No 7' giants but I am looking forward to the day.

I personally have had Speckleds very mellow and not given to the behavior. My Pyros and Black Milks are easy going too and I've never experienced them doing it. I haven't a clue as to why it happens. I just think its unfair to dismiss folks as being bad keepers right off the bat.

Seems to be more the larger Common kings generally but I'm sure there are exceptions like everything else.

I did come to an understanding with these beautiful Montgomery County NC Easterns.

Being fed enormous amounts of food and getting spacious digs is boring. I had to remove the Cypress mulch substrate so I could see them lurking. I did not realize that flashy black and white paint job was such good camo in a cage with dappled light. It really breaks up their form.

Their hobby was to hunt me. They would purposely hide just to do Gotcha!! And I looked before servicing the cages for waterbowls and feces removal. They would ignore tongs with a Rat and go for the fingers holding the Tongs purposely. It was a sick sense of humor from some bored snakes! I'm convinced. Neither is mean just smart. I can't tell you how many times I drew back a bloody hand. Honestly, I think they enjoyed it.
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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Those are nice cage set ups and your getula are obviously well fed. Are you missing any fingers?
I have also found my northern pines to be pretty mellow. The lodingi, on the other hand, never stop moving in my hands. They tolerate being handled, but do not seem to enjoy it. Second favorite colubrid. Heard rumors that us Fish and Wildlife Service is considering them for Threatened status, along with Louisiana pines. I would love to see a lodingi in the wild; likely never will.

Thanks.

I see what you mean by saying "They don't seem to like to be bothered" I'm hoping that can change with time. I think I was telling Billy that the other day.
Still awesome animals though.

Billy had been telling me how nice Northerns could be for a long time before I checked into it. Until you have one in hand it's hard to realize what folks are talking about.

I think I've seen your name when I've lurked on the Indigo forum.
Indigos are your 1st favorite?
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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Yeah, I have a weakness for eastern indigos. Lots of work and not cheap, but damn they are beautiful. I used to have a pair of black milks and I see why you like them. They were super gentle, bred easily and got to a decent size.
Watch yer fingers!

Indigos ARE beautiful! Good for you.

I had one when I was a kid when they were legal in petshops. I got him cheap because he only had one eye. Looks like he survived someone trying to bash in his head. Very cool snake. Just had to be careful to approach him on the sighted side otherwise he freaked. There's no way I will be able to go down that road again but I'd like to think the Black Pines give me a tiny glimpse of those days again.

I think the Black Milks are kind of like Billy describing how nice the N. Pines are.
You have handle them in person to realize they sort of handle like a Boa, are super muscular and the irredescence and easy going disposition just top off a nice aniimal.

Yes. I realize they don't compare to indigos in big ways but cool in their own right.

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Black pines and eastern indigos are night and day behaviorally, but I love both species. Must be some karma floating around, because today for the first time I can remember, I got tagged by two different snakes! The first was a beautiful yellow floridana, so much for my record of never being bitten by kingsnakes. The other bite was much more memorable; it was a female indigo. Both were just aggressive feeding responses. No chewing, just a quick strike and release. And with the indigo, a fair amount of my blood.

Sounds like quite a day.
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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

" But to insinuate folks that have had the problem are doing something wrong is a bad starting point. "

Exactly!! Good point!
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Genesis 1:1

Good thoughts!!
I think both sides have valid points.
I have known of many who have had kings that would not chill!! Always coming at them.
I have known of many that had the exact opposite as well, myself included. Have only had one kingsnake that has ever went out of their way, every time, to use my fingers for a lollipop.
So, in essence, both sides have valid experiences!

I think it may just also boil down simply to the individual snake as well.

And yes, I was a bad influence, as now you are finding out that pits ARE the ultimate pet snake.

HA HA!!
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Genesis 1:1

Hi Tim, Heres the point, its not about a playing field, level or not. No one, or evolution says the playing field is suppose to be level.

It doesn't matter if the temps are this or that. What matters is that simple behavior. Its eating something that is NOT food, but assoiated with food. What other snakes do or do not do, is NOT ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION. These animals ARE doing this and there is reason.

I have kept Cal kings since the early sixties, and they would attempt to comsume your hands, if they were starving. If they are well fed, they do not.

A thought for you, have you ever heard of wild snakes attempting to eat where a mouse sat, or walked. Or heard about any snake eating a mouse nest??? They all smell like mice.

Whats often misunderstood with snakes, as opposed to mammals is, Hunger is controlled two ways, not one. In the field, if a snake cannot find food, it lowers its body temps, therefore uses less energy and does not feel the need to feed. They will stay down until conditions improve.

Or they keep their body temps up and feed.

Please do not take offense, but your playing field, is mainly about you and not the snakes. As if the snakes have the ability, they use a wide range of temps. Its also academic, as it has nothing to do with the problem mentioned.

Best wishes

It's a very common defensive behavior for wild California Kings, zonatas, and graybands to chew on you when you first catch them. They will slowly push their nose on your arm, hand, whatever, then bite, chew and sometimes twist. I suspect all kings do this but those are the ones I have the most experience with and they've all done it right from the wild so it can't be just because they're starving, IMHO.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Hi Tim, heres the problem, you keep saying, you don't recall someone posting something. Well, I am giving my opinion from first hand experience from keeping all these types. That first hand experience spans 50 years and includes being amoung the first to keep and breed these species.

I will tell you, all snakes, even Rosy boas, can and do bite. So these do this and those do that is not the question. What the is, is which species is best for newbie and handling. Remember, if someone asks this question, they are indeed a newbie.

So your saying the Mexicana group is better then getulus for newbies. I totally disagree with that. While they are no problem for those with experience, they are not good for newbies.

Even many with experience become frustrated with neonates of montane kings.

About your level playing field, that is naïve. Any good keeper understands some species have a higher metabolism then others. So if your keeping them all the same and one species is starving, I would suggest feeding them more or dropping the temps a little.

A snake for kids to hold, a getulus is far better. And if you kings constantly attempted to eat your hands, I would recommend taking a look at adjusting your husbandry to suit the species and not use a level playing field. Best wishes

I have kept Florida kings, CalKings, Desert kings, bunch of eastern kings, black kings, Mexican black kings, wild caught speckled kings. The only time I have been bitten by a king was picking up a wild one.

Lol. I hear you Tim.

I've even had it happen with some Mexican Milks. I have had some Kings that were very trustworthy but over the years I've had so many that continued to just start chewing out of nowhere that it just takes the fun out if it. I'm amazed when folks say they've never had it happen to them!

Never had Ratsnakes, rubber Boas Etc. ever do anything like it at all. I'm liking working with more Pits now for that reason.

For example, This Grumpy guy will let you know he doesn't want to be bothered but has never bitten though sometimes he's more grumpy than other times. There are times he's just fine too. Very smart, very up front with where you stand. I handle him a lot on purpose these days in hopes of getting him to give up the Tude' but he will never just up and decide to start "Chewing" for no apparent reason. Lol

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

Thanks all for the replies! Looks like a colorful "Mex-Mex" King makes the most sense as the nearly unanimous choice for a first King.
Thanks!

I think you got o many Mexican subspescies guys on this forum. These floks tend to form groups within herpetoculture and so you get biased opinions. Like my opinion as well, as I keep mainly Florida kings

So to add to the confusion:
Personally I don't think a mex mex is a NOT a good first (or second choice) for a first king/Milk. I agree that the Hondurans and Pueblins are to skittish. But I do like the Sinaloan milks because they are a bit calmer.Probelm with those is ther has been to much captive inbreeding and they are not the same as the original Sinaloans/nesloni babies produced in captivity.

So, try a getula eastern king or Florida. They are tough as nails captives and they will allow you more room to make mistakes and learn from. They also are a bit more stout and not so skink and they fit into a sweater box set up perfectly. Mine all feed on F/T chick which cost .12 cents each and keeps the feeding cost down as well.

They are also calm and don't crap all over you like Calif kings and most Milksnakes.

So my reccomendation is get a eastern king or Florida king. Or even a Apalachicola King (goini) which is essentially the same thing when it comes to toughness, size, temperament (handling) and feeding responses. Heck all the eastern spp is the best first kingsnake in my opinion.

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"So I will end with, your now aware of the problem, what YOU do is entirely up to you. Now if you make THIS mistake, its not because you are ignorant."

Frank Retes

Mexican Black Kingsnakes are considered the best beginner kingsnake. That was my first snake ever and she's a real sweetheart. You can't go wrong.

Wow! This was one of the most interesting posts I’ve read in a LONG time. I must admit something, however. *I almost broke into tears to see FR & TS in a “heated” dispute.* You are BOTH right, guys, and you both are HIGHLY respected for your insights & opinions.

(FR, you are much like me. We both would do better to be more circumspect & tactful when demonstrating how “right” we are. The perceived arrogance & resentment we sometimes generate negates our original intent. The fix is a new strategy.)

Insight given here was very valuable in general, but we all must remember the Golden Rule of snake keeping, for any species: THE INDIVIDUAL MATTERS

Some herpers have seen Desert & Mexican Black kings that are very docile and easily handled. Others report demonic responses and strikes at almost anything. It depends.

My experience? I have kept Eastern & California kings; several individuals of both genders. I am a very untypical herper, as I tend to:

1. Maintain naturalistic vivariums of at least 55-gallon size
2. Feed live
3. Handle often and am very confident when handling snakes (lifting from below)

All of my kings calmed nicely after initial acclimation. One Cal King was more spirited & curious than my original Eastern, but I rarely experienced significant musking or biting – and never a “latch on” bite. Behavior was usually quite predictable – after I learned that it’s quite normal for males to stop feeding for weeks in the spring.

I agree that an Eastern, Mexican Black or Desert is *usually* the more docile choice, but the main factors for how well a snake relates to its keeper depend on the individual snake personality, how often it is handled, and the Confidence Level of the handler.

1.0 Pituophis catenifer deserticola (Alvord Desert, OR)
0.1 Pantherophis guttatus (Carolina phase)
1.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (native, wild pair in backyard nature restoration zone)

In a somewhat related note - what is a "Flame King"?

I seen a very small one at a pet store and it was super well behaved and not flighty at all - and it was in shed. In contrast, my corn gets anxieties when in shed.

Anyway; is this Flame a variation on a "Brooksi" that was just recommended?

I just glanced a few posts. I would suggest a Corn Snake. Great beginner or advanced snake if you get the bug. I have had Kings start chewing on my hands for seemingly no particular reason. Tried all sorts of things to remedy it. Not able to figure it out. Real turn off for a poor kid to get chewed on. I have had kings I fed enormous amounts of food do it as well as moderate amounts. Large cages where they pick their temps and smaller tubs. Hand washing and just ignoring the bad habit because I liked the King. Sometimes I think they just have great aspirations and think they can eat me. Lol.

Whatever the reason, it can be a common problem. I have mostly had the problem with Cal, Fla, and Easterns. Not really much with Speckleds, Graybands or Black Milksnakes. An established adult Pyro would be great too. they are an all time favorite but maybe not a good choice for a beginner. After years of liking kings I'm moving into Bullsnake land. Very rewarding animals. They generally let you know how they feel right off the bat. No sneak attacks in my experience and some individuals can be very chill and even seem to enjoying your company. All are very smart and finding a good variety is pretty easy. I have found some N. Pine snakes to be like family pet German Shephards. Big but kind. All in all though. An Albino Corn would be my first choice. Good luck.

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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

I agree, a corn snake would be a good choice. I once saw a teenage boy wearing his adult pet corn snake around his neck while he did clerking in a local pet store. Both parties seemed quite happy!

Although I love my bull snakes, they don't really like to be still, but instead like to pass from hand to hand when being handled. Also it is very important to learn their signals, so when that five pound female gets that look in her eye you don't wind up getting tasted!

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Wow that's gotten big Bob! I'm finding though that some of the N.Pines do just sit and chill. Taking it all in and staying still.

I didn't catch that the original poster said he already had a Corn.
My bad.

I would recommend a Black Milksnake. I find they are hard to beat. You want to get some from a breeder that has solid black ones though. I've had several over the years that retained various amounts of residual banding. I sent them down the road. I only like the very dark ones. As nice as mine are, if I look hard enough on the belly etc. I can see some but you have to look hard.

The one in the vid is really nice and dark. I'd understood many years ago that folks were interbreeding Hondurans in an attempt to get the whitest snows with folks none the wiser. Not sure if that's the result of some not darkening as much. Also I've seen some locales that naturally just stay in that muddy "ugly duckling" coloring as a normal look.

They aren't super milksnake twitchy/nervous.

Generally are very calm.

Never had one do the "Kingsnake Chew".

Tricolor as a baby, short ugly stage as they turn all Black. The black is not just dark brown like a Mexican King, but really BLACK, and patent leather BLACK with a sheen similar to a Rainbow Boa. Also mine move more like a Boa rather than a typical Milksnake.

The babies are large and robust, eager to eat Fuzzies right away too.

Found this video recently. I've never seen a captive Gaigeae act like this (usually VERY docile) but this vid shows the impressive muscle they have and beautiful coloring really well.
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"If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.

I'm glad FR spoke up for Cal Kings and others have attested to the "affable" nature of other getula ssp. I currently keep a wide variety of Cal Kings; coastals, morphs, desert phase, WC and CB. I got inot Cal Kings in 2005 and in 8 years have only had 1, a 3yo albino male who'd recently just begun feeding after brumation try to chew on my finger. My one observation is that the female coastals tend to be a bit more skittish that their male counterparts.

reako45

Thank you all for the replies so far - I need to get started on a scorecard soon for a choice!

I have had a great Corn now for about a year, she is maybe about 16 months old. Super snake so far. Really want a couple more in the bucket list in the future; maybe a Reverse Okeetee or a Lava.

Recently snagged an older Falsey on a whim, but was told it has to go once Google revealed it was "venomous". A case of it sounded like a good idea at the time...

Because of the FWC, I am looking for the next - small - family-friendly snake to compete with a choice of yet another Corn, and Kings are always on everyone's short list for same - so that is why I asked the question about which King makes the most sense.

I've also read of Children's Pythons and Spotted Pythons too, which are at least a more exotic a choice than yet another Corn or a BP.

Since you mentioned Children's and spotted pythons - I think they are great. They remind me of cornsnakes somewhat as far as certain behaviors go, but yes, much more "exotic". I am a real fan of the smaller pythons. Once they grow out of the juvenile nippy stage, they really seem to lose the fear, and they get almost inquisitive of their surroundings. Very nice snakes. Not colorful, but nice. Content to stay coiled up and hidden much of the time, so if you are looking for something that is more active, look elsewhere.

I love kings. My comment on them is that, pound for pound, kings seem to require more food than corns and even the small pythons, given similar conditions. Kings often are a bit more active, they exhibit bolder behavior typically. They do keep it interesting, and that is part of their appeal to many folks. They just don't lay there all the time.