Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello,

just for clarity, i am not a pro with hogs. i currently have 9 westerns and a pair of southerns. they are all thriving except for my 1 "maintenance" feeder.

i was wondering if you all ever have any hatchlings that just turn into maintenance feeders? by this i mean they will only eat enough to survive, but not to grow.

example... over 4 months ago i bought 1.2 of late 2012 het toffees. they all started off around 10g. the male and one of the females are doing great. eating every 3 days. the male is 30g , the female is female is 40g . the maintenance feeders is 16g and been holding :/

with the picky eater, i have tried scenting with tuna, spam, sardines, live, f/t, braining, and lizard scent. she only eats about once every week to 2 weeks no matter what i have tried.

i keep all my hogs on the same room with 80 ambient, 92 degree hot spot, fairly small appropriately sized bins, a hide, and water. i do not handle the picky eater unless absolutely needed. for me, i have found they eat better when in fairly small containers. containers that they can touch both ends when they stretch out.

i have learned all the individual habits and personalities of the other. the maintenance feeder i cant figure out. it's a shame for her health sake and the fact that she is a beautiful red het toffee.

do some just maintenance feed and never reach breedable adult size? i refuse to just sell her and dump her on someone unsuspectingly.

any thoughts? feed back? advice?

thanks...
jonathan

Hello, I think we lose sight of what we have. Not just you, but all of us.

We have wild animals in cages, they are still not domestic yet.

We also have individuals in cages, which means, while they may be the same species, even brother and sister, they are indeed individuals. This includes the ability to handle stress.

Also many keepers do not have a concept of captivity and what is good or what is bad. And please understand, that is based on the animal. What is good for it, or was is bad for it.

As a field herper, your concept of a cage that the animal can touch all sides is completely foreign to the animal. They live and are designed to florish without walls. I see them as they are, without walls. I never found one in a box. They just are not attracted to a box.

So we have them in boxes, that is against all that is hognose. So what we have is animals that are being behaviorally modified to fit our needs. Again, as individuals, they simply do not all react the same to chronic prolonged stress. Captivity is just that, chronic prolonged stress. Please understand, I am not criticizing. ITs simply the truth.

The above is from a behavioral point of view, you also have a simple physical point of view. While we can all agree that 80F with a hot spot can "work"(from a captive point of view) its nothing like what they actually utilize on a daily basis. What we offer in captivity is an average workable temp range or temp. Being an average actually means it eliminates the exception. As mentioned, all animals include exceptions. End of part one.

In captivity, we cull out those exceptions, the ones that do not take to the average. That is, they die, do not breed etc.

Or you can offer that "individual" something it as an individual requires. Change your setup. After all, it has almost nothing to do with hognose, other then it works for some in boxes. I know, that sounds means or rude, but its not. The truth is, this is not about you, its about one individual hognose. You as its keeper are responsible for its life. So its your choice to offer other CAPTIVE conditions that are more to that individuals liking.

In nature, that individual, would simply pick its own support and florish until something eats it. End of part 2

Behavior, so far in my work, hognose are indeed very very sensitive animals. They are watchers that take in everything(watch their eyes) but have little ability to react, to fat to fly. They tend to go cryptic, which means blend in and wait until danger passes. Slow moving snakes often do this. While they appear to be tame, not run, etc, they are totally the opposite.

In nature a common result from intrusion is, that playing dead thing. Some do it as soon as you look at them(hot males) others don't bother even if you pick them up(big females) So far, males are much more reactive to interference then females.

Ok, enough to think about, try offering other type caging. As small boxes is not about individual animals that refuse to conform to the insanity of small boxes(Insanity is defined as, outside of normal) and boxes where they can touch all sides is completely insane(to the animals).

Again, if you care about the animal, try offering more instead of less. After all, they are individuals. Best wishes

When you said "maintenance feeding" at first I thought you meant a keeper/breeder who only gives their snakes enough food to live...not to grow. I have received several snakes in this condition and this term was used at the time.

Anyway, I have a "picky feeder" (and never maintenance feed, by the way! I want my snakes to grow! ).

She's maxed out at 15g. She's very small and has poor muscle tone/control. I think there's something else going on in her head, and she's a permanent pet of mine. I was wondering if there may have been a problem during incubation, because she has a very crazy pattern going on (her sides are tiger-like, but she has a bunch of horizontal banding too, like plaid). The rest of the clutch was fine. She's pretty active too.

I've scented with broth, chicken, fish straight from the market, toad, worms, done the paper bag trick (very effective at first by the way), changed her enclosure, given her privacy, covered her, tried every trick in the book (FR, don't hate me for using that term!) and no go. Failure to thrive?

If they're late 2012s I wouldn't give up on her yet. How is her muscle tone? If she's still acting strong she might just be one of those slow growers.

Sorry I can't be of help...good luck with her!
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You ever talk to me like that again...and I'll turn your balls into earrings. Understand?

Go for it.

I thought the same thing when i saw "maintenance feeder" until I read the rest. I have basically the same thing going on with one of my 2012s. While my next smallest is at 60g and biggest is 160g, this girl is sitting at 17g. I just pull up her records and I've had her for 8 months and she has fed 31 times for me. She was somewhat of a headache for me at first. I did the sames things mentioned along with a few more scents. I even tried using a bigger enclosure as well. The one that put my mind at ease even though she still doesn't eat like the rest of my hogs nor growing like them is that she is a bit pudgy but has incrediable muscle tone. She was the smallest thing I have ever seen when I first got her weighing in at 4g.

What this indicates, not just what you mentioned, include the other two examples, is, the husbandry is not very good(yet) Not how how its applied, the husbandry itself.

Just an example, on my site, the ground temps in the sun, averages 135F on the days they are active, sometimes much higher.

Of course the mass temps down in the ground are much lower, so they have a HUGE range of choices compared to the averages folks support in boxes. Best wishes

gohog and ken,

the muscle tone is great! she looks and acts perfect. she just doesn't want to eat consistently enough to grow. actually, she eats fairly consistently, but not often. she is beautiful red hog. it's just a shame to see her not thrive.

scenting and braining only worked once, then she would not go for it again. she eats f/t, but only about every couple of weeks, just like anything else. tried the paper bag without success.

fr, i did not and will not read through your rambling about "how it's all about the snake" and get baited.

ken and gohog, thanks for the replies. i figured i wasn't alone. i wonder if some are just destined to not thrive? maybe some others will post and see some replies.

jonathan

I do not feel Frank is trying to bait anyone in this instance. He is actually being quite helpful. He is trying to get YOU to look at your issue and solve it. I actually tend to agree with what he is saying in this thread.

I have a couple of hundred hogs in my collection from 700 gram adults down to 6 gram hatchlings and I am not nor have I ever experienced the issues being talked about in this thread. At least not for any length of time. By offering options and broadening my husbandry, these "issues" sort themselves out in a day or three. There is no such thing as a "problem snake". What there is a huge abundance of is problematic husbandry and human error.

I can sit here and tell you step by step what I do. But honestly, what I do may not work for you particular snake. The thing that Frank does, and not many can see, is he makes YOU think for yourself instead of giving you a direct answer that may or may not work in your case. I know when I started keeping reptiles and in the start of me breeding them, there were no hand books, no good care sheets, and no web sites. In fact, there was no internet yet. We had to think for ourselves and incorporate trial and error. This is not a bad thing and it should still hold true today even with the information we have at our finger tips.

When reading Franks posts, you can actually get a lot out of them if you read between what you feel are insults. Trust me, I spent a long time not liking they way Frank presents his postings and even no liking him personally. However, I got past it. Once you get past having you ego bruised while reading what her writes, his posts and messages do begin to become clear. I had to learn to put my ego aside and get back to the roots of why I started keeping reptiles to begin with {just recently LOL) because as Frank said a thousand times, it is about the animals and properly supporting their needs and not about us or who is right or wrong.

gregg,

i find that amazing that you keep a couple hundred hogs and never encountered the issue of a problem feeder that will not readily eat. maybe you are right. maybe i haven't found the right environment to get her to readily eat. i have figured out the winning combo for the rest of them. they are all thriving. it's just frustrating that this one won't.

it is not that fact that she doesn't eat. it is the fact that it's always a week to 2 weeks apart, which is not often enough to gain any weight. i have tried all of the scents and tricks that i have seen referred to. they might work once, then she won't eat for another week or 2.

as for frank, i will pass. long before i got any hognose i started reading this forum. i started off reading all of the post no matter who wrote them. i try to learn from everyone and choose the route that works best for my situation. i noticed a pattern that frank's post seemed to be condescending, argumentative, rambling, and full of insults. i don't doubt that he has knowledge on hogs, but i don't feel like wading through all of the mess to find it. i will ask others

jonathan

Hey Jonathan,

Like I said, when there is a problem feeder in my collection, it is not an ongoing issue. Some can be a pain in the behind at first. I will tweak my husbandry for that particular animal to get it to eat as it should. As time goes on, they do not need the tweaked environment and can be house like the rest.

It is not really an amazing thing to have a couple of hundred snakes feeding perfectly fine. In my opinion, it is to be expected. That is what they do.

Do not get me wrong, I do not feel you are doing anything wrong with you hogs and I am confident that your husbandry is fine. Maybe you just have one of those hogs that needs special attention. Experiment a bit and I am certain you will find that sweet spot for that particular snake.

Good luck my friend. Hope she starts eating like mad.

And by no means am I defending Frank. He is a man and can handle himself. I just feel people should not worry so much about their egos and feelings so much. I hate to preach as I am just learning this myself, but I now find it much less stressful when dealing with other personalities. That's all...

Hello Gregg,

I agree that some snakes are special needs. Some of my hogs will eat straight off tongs with aggression, some want the prey to be left over night, some stopped feeding when put into larger cages and had to be moved back, some needed scenting for awhile, ect... It still bothers me that one o these tweaks will work once but not again. Then 1-2 weeks later she will eat anything offered. I am running out of ideas :/

What do you consider a good feeder to be for a western? In my experience and limited knowledge I consider a good feeder to reliably feed 2x a week as a hatchling / juvie and once every 5 days as an adult. If someone considered a hatchling to be a good weekly feeder, then she would be borderline.

Do you keep records for your snakes? I suppose that would be very time consuming with a Couple hundred. I only have a couple dozen total between all of my critters. I like keeping exact records of feeding, sheds, and monthly weights. Helps me get a good long term picture.

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan,

I consider a good feeding hog one that will never pass the chance up at eating something. LOL. I have some that will eat every day if I offered it and others that will not have a problem taking 2 feeds a week. No hog in my collection feeds less than 2 times a week.

I do not keep great records to be honest. I have a sticker on hatchling tubs where I just put a check on when they take a meal. Once there are tem check marks, I do not bother adding anymore checks. I do not pay any attention to weights. It is just not something I feel is needed. I can tell by looking at my animals if they are ready to breed or if they need to be fed more often or whatever.

Hello Gregg,
That sounds like a good setup and procedures to me. My other hogs (8 other westerns and pair of southerns) all eat twice a week. The picky girl is twice a month. I'll keep trying. I'm running out of idea though.
Jonathan

The problem with your schedule is timing. At some times of the year, that would be fine. At other times of the year, like now, feeding daily is normal.

I fear what your doing is having records, guide you. You know, once a week, twice a week. That's not how reptiles work.

At this time of year, wild snakes are finishing off egg laying, and the rainy season is supporting lots of prey. They have a window to consume as much as they can, as often as they can.
Neonates will have hatched by the end of next month and feed like their lives depend on it, and their lives do.

In captivity its the same, the heat of the summer is suppose to ramp up their metabolisms and they should feed like crazy. As fall winter sets in, they slow down, both feeding and growing.

They next three months is key to how they will perform as adults. Good luck

So you do not want to think, then surely I am not for you.

Please understand, those with experience will not look at the animals the same as beginers, nor the same as newbies. That's what experience does. Its not about rude or condescending. Of course it seems that way, when you don't understand something.

As you said, I always say, its about the animals. Which means, I put personalities and egos aside. Mine and yours!

As Gregg mentioned, you cannot be told what to do, well some can, but most say, yea but I live in the cellar of brewery and I cannot do this or that, or I can't because of this or that. Yet you can learn whats needed and apply it in any situation.

So it boils down to this, if you care about your animals, you will learn to think, if you don't, you will do this for a couple of years then move on to collecting banana peels(the latest fad)

And yes, that sounds rude, but its not rude when its the truth. If you hang around you will learn that.

As a newbie you believe in what is written, its A or B. I pick B. As you actually gain an education, you learn that its more then A or B, in fact a lot more. Somewhere you will learn that if the animal is not right(healthy) or progressing right, something is wrong with your, A or B.

To go past being a newbie, the first lesson to learn is, The A's and B's(stuff you read) are mere suggestions, the TRUTH is the animal itself. Its always right, we all are just trying to keep it going right, the A's and B's you read, are only good as long as its working. With a troublesome animal, stop believing in the A's and B's and believe in the animal. If its doing great, then your husbandry is good, its working, if its not, your husbandry is not working. It is that simple, change your husbandry. Cheers

" it is not that fact that she doesn't eat. it is the fact that it's always a week to 2 weeks apart, which is not often enough to gain any weight."

She should be growing just fine on once a week or every 5 days, if she was consistently eating. Is her weight really that low? If so, I wonder if there are other issues internally?

If she is actually only eating once a week, and doing that consistently, then that would not worry me in the slightest bit. I have had many snakes get to breeding size in a few years with that feeding regimen, including my het-albino western hog male.

Now, you said she is a late 2012? Does that mean she was a second clutch baby? If so, I have known instances where second clutch babies do not grow as fast or do as well, including my experiences. However, even with that being said, I think there are many instances where second clutch babies do very well as well, but I for now, will always avoid buying those. So, if she is, that may be something to think about to??

Also, some snakes just simply take a few more years to get to size to breed. Nothing can really explain it, but it can and does happen.

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Genesis 1:1

"Now, you said she is a late 2012? Does that mean she was a second clutch baby? If so, I have known instances where second clutch babies do not grow as fast or do as well, including my experiences. However, even with that being said, I think there are many instances where second clutch babies do very well as well, but I for now, will always avoid buying those. So, if she is, that may be something to think about to??"

Is this due to heat you think? Any thoughts on this? I'm curious as to why you shun 2nd clutches... Please share things you've experienced with this.

" Is this due to heat you think? Any thoughts on this? I'm curious as to why you shun 2nd clutches... Please share things you've experienced with this."

Well, my experience may be limited, but the ones I have had that were second clutch babies did not grow as well, or thrive, as good as the first clutch babies I have bought. Asked many breeders as well, and their thoughts were somewhat of the same, even the guys I bought them from, but again, I know of many second clutches that did ok, but for me, nope.

The ones I have seen are smaller for the most part as well. What I am saying though is not a general overall blanket statement on every single one, but just what I have experienced and have been told.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

I appreciate your candor! I'm about to acquire a couple finally, don't know if they are 2nd clutch or not. I'm just gathering as much info as I can and read this thread and your remarks sparked an interest.

Have you noticed this in other snakes? Do you think this might be unique to Hog's?

It's worth exploring, except maybe to the guys trying to sell 2nd clutches now

Out of curiosity has anyone seen this in 3rd clutches? Observations? Thoughts?

I am not sure what other "breeders" said that second clutch hatchlings somehow do not grow as fast or do as well as hatchlings from first clutches but it is a bunch of BS to be honest. You say your experience with this is limited with this. How limited are we talking? And who are these other breeders? Is their experience "limited" as well with this?

I have seen nothing to suggest that double clutches are weaker or that the hatchlings are not as fit as first clutch hatchlings and my experience is NOT limited when it comes to this.

I apologize now if I sound rude or sound a bit like a jerk. I do not mean to come off that way, but I can not allow unfounded information like that to just be said and then snowball. This is how bad information somehow becomes part of how some people do things and sets reptile keeping and proper husbandry back a few years.

Now what, are people going to start asking breeders if the hatchlings they sell are first or double clutched hatchlings because they think that second clutch hatchlings are not as good?

And in all honesty, If you are seeing an issue like that, this means your post lay care and husbandry after the first clutch might me lacking, which is not really a problem with double clutch fitness, is it.

Again, I have seen NO difference between first and second clutches when it comes to hatchling fitness.

I wish you luck with this Gregg. My experience is like yours, second clutch are no different then first clutch animals.

There is a point, if an animal is unhealthy then do not purchase it, it doesn't matter what clutch its from.

My experience is, even those rare dwarfs, grow fast and strong, as soon as you get them out of the egg. As you know, snakes can lay small eggs or large eggs, which is somewhat reflected in hatchling size. How they respond after hatching is the same, but that depends on husbandry.

These folks with problems, have marginal husbandry, then blame the animals. That is the problem.

Its odd and against all common sense, they talk of putting them in boxes where the box is no longer then the animal, then wonder why it does poorly. Or better yet, some do poorly.

Heres something I have noticed about hogs, they crap a lot and do not like dirty cages. Some other species, like kings, its not a problem. Oh, they only crap a lot if they eat a lot. So its kinda a vicious circle. But they seem to stop feeding if you do not clean the cage. Is this true?

To the folks with think second clutch individuals are poor choices. As I have mentioned, Average husbandry only supports average animals. Good husbandry supports all but the dead animals. I like Gregg, have not had problems with second clutch individuals, or premies, or dwarfs. Of NOTE, those are extremely rare if you support your animals.

Also of note, in nature they hatch at a range of sizes, from tiny 4 inch individuals, to almost five inches. Also of note, I picked up a tiny almost four inch individual Dec. 31 of last year and its almost 14 inches and sexually mature now. Best wishes

I have her in a large enclosure and it's as ***clean*** as can be. My snakes never go in a little box. I hope she speeds up next year because when she does eat, she doesn't stop.

I've tried a lot of things, mostly per FR's inspiration and given her time to adjust. She's not just a picky eater, there's something wrong. This is what I'm trying to get across.

She doesn't even respond much to outer stimuli. Maybe she's partially blind or has a mental disability. I don't know. She'd be a goner outside that's for sure. As long as she remains a good weight for her size, grows (albeit slowly for now?), is active and doesn't appear to be suffering, I'll help her along and keep trying.
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You ever talk to me like that again...and I'll turn your balls into earrings. Understand?

Go for it.

Gregg,

These were with kings, not hogs.
These breeders have bred snakes longer than anyone on here, and they themselves did say it was possible that some second clutch babies do not do as well, the key word being " possible " that some second clutch babies do not do as well. They did tell this to me, when I bought the snakes as well. And, a lot of second clutch babies I have seen were smaller than first clutch. Not all, but a lot were.

Again, like I said, I know not all second clutch babies fit the description, but was a thought, as the poster asked for opinions and thoughts.

Just something to ponder.
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Genesis 1:1

As a Cal king breeder, ITS POSSIBLE, that first clutch animals could be weak, or second. It could happen, maybe, possible. ETC

I am sorry, but there is no merit in that type of thinking. Of course anything is possible. Its not about what "could" happen. Saying that is just about like saying nothing, no, its worse.

It actually is about what does happen. Not what may/possibly/could happen. The strength of neonates is based on the strength of the parents. And their strength is based on good husbandry. That was coined by Ernie Wagner, many many many years ago.

You see, before good husbandry came about, not so good husbandry was normal. And weak neonates were common. And there were no second clutches.

Strong husbandry prevents weak neonates, from any clutch. That should be your goal.

If you want to warn someone, you should say, only purchase strong healthy neonates that are progressing. That is, already growing. That would be good advice, not second clutch non-sense. Thank you

No prob!!

I noticed these in baby kings I have purchased before. Also, when I asked questions at breeder's tables before, when I have seen unusually small snakes later on in the year. Some were double clutch babies, and let me tell you, there was a big difference in size on many I saw. Not all, but many. For me, I would like to buy the biggest size baby I am able to. When I bred, I was not concerned with my females to produce second clutch babies, so the females would only have one batch per year, as breeding can be taxing on the female. About quality, not quantity. Well, even though I am not basing all of my comments on this example, one time, one of my kings did produce retained sperm babies, and they were unusually small, not like the kings I produced before. They did fine still, ate good, and I sold them. I don't know how things turned out, but they did seem perfectly healthy, but were just smaller than normal.

I do have a northern pinesnake that was from retained sperm, so she was technically from a second clutch of eggs. She was huge at birth, and grew to breeding size, over 5 feet, in almost less than 2 years. That is an example that shows that she did fine.

So yes, I have seen both examples, and that is why I made the statement that I didn't think it applied for every single second clutch baby. Of course, some pushers on here may get upset, because they are only concerned with sales. Oh well, just an observation.

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Genesis 1:1

discern,

i appreciate the thoughts and feedback. i will keep trying. when i had kings and bulls, i never intentionally double clutched. with hogs, i have heard so many people that say they do that i had never thought about it having possible negative aspect.

i might experiment with the double clutch idea next year. i keep very accurate records. i might try a single and double clutch with a couple females and compare the results

jonathan

Hey Jonathan,
One important thing to remember is that we are talking about hognose snakes here, not kings, bulls, corns, or anything else. What applies to those species may not apply to hognose snakes. With that being said, if your husbandry is not up to snuff you may see issues with second clutches. And as much as you may not like it, FR has been breeding kings far longer than most. He is not a "pusher" so I can not see why he would disagree with what DISCERN is saying other than the fact he has never seen an issue in second clutch animals.

Something else to consider is the fact that DISCERN is not a hognose breeder. I am fairly certain that DISCERN only owns one male hognose snake. It is kind of like me telling people to keep and breed their ball pythons the same as I do hognose snakes.

I can tell you from plenty of experience with double clutching hogs that there is no negative aspect. If your husbandry is on par your second clutches will be just a perfect and healthy as your first clutches. That is why you have seen so many other hog breeders do it and you never hearing of these non-existent negatives DISCERN is talking about.

One of my second clutches from last season.

gregg,

i agree that we are talking about hogs here. this was the first that i had heard about a possible negative aspect to a second clutch. i do try to listen to what different people have to say and draw my own conclusions.

"And as much as you may not like it, FR has been breeding kings far longer than most."

that statement is not true... i never said that i don't like fr for any other reason than the fact that his post are condescending, rude, argumentative, and ect... i never said that he does not have knowledge or experience. i would not stand and listen to anyone speaking to me like that in person and i'm not going to read post like that. i just skip over anything written by fr having knowledge does not give someone the right to speak/write in a rude manner. i fail to see why i should "tolerate and accept" the rude way someone communicates.

that is a very nice looking clutch. i have yet to breed any hogs. i have several females that will hopefully go next year. maybe then i will have some of my own experience to add. thanks for the feedback.

jonathan

Gregg,

Yes, I am not a hog breeder, and you are, but I do know and have known many breeders that have produced hogs as well, and this topic of second clutches, has been talked about, and their experiences, and knowledge, has been shared with me, concerning all types of colubrids, not just hogs, and so forth, hence, my opinion and my experience being shared. The tiniest babies I have ever seen in any colubrid, including hogs, were second clutches, which is concerning to me. Like I said, however, that does not speak for ALL second clutches.

In your experience, you may not have experienced anything negative, and that is great! I take your experience in high regard. I am glad you shared your pic of that clutch!! That adds to the conversation, and that is a great example of the other side of the coin that I frequently mentioned as well, being I know of some examples that second clutches did well as well.

" If your husbandry is on par your second clutches will be just a perfect and healthy as your first clutches. "

You are starting to sound like your new best friend there..haha!!
Do you realize that the statement you just made sounds like a recipe? Your new buddy always says and talks down to people who follow a " recipe ". You get what I am saying? Now, before you get bent out of shape, realize I am being lighthearted with you in saying that. Just stating an observation.

Yes, if your husbandry is good, then yes, you should EXPECT things to work out. However, if you do have a lot of experience, you will realize that is not always the case. There is always factors that nature, NOT YOU THE KEEPER, will have control over.

Good input!!

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Genesis 1:1

Sorry if I sounded harsh. Just got a little bent when you labled breeders as "pushers" and said it was only about the money. That's all. The thing is, I believe a certain way and have my own thoughts that go along with how Frank feels in many aspects. I truly feel that husbandry has everything to do with our failures as keepers and any successes our animals have in captivity has little to do with us at all. They are just doing what they are designed by nature to do and can tolerate a lot of our screw ups to such a degree that we do not even know we are screwing up. That is until little signs pop up like under weight hatchlings and so on. The thing is, the issues are usually just pushed of and blamed on the animals when the fact is, the problem is us and what we are doing/offering to our captives.

I don't mean to sound like anyone. In fact, I think I sound different from most when I post. I would never tell you or anyone that you do not know what you are doing or that you are doing it wrong. You do what you do because it works for you and obviously it is working well for your animals. So if I sounded like a jerk, it was only because of your previous post I pointed out.

And I do respect your opinion and experiences. But with a statement like 'second clutched produce small neonates that do not do as well as first clutch neonates all the time/most of the time/sometimes", It should really be presented as an individual opinion and maybe offer something substantial to back it up. Something substantial is not needed when giving an opinion but when an opinion is presented as fact, it may cause confusion with newer, inexperienced keepers.

I am very curious as to who these hog breeders were who told you this though. I mean are they actual breeders or keepers who got lucky and got a few clutches? Also, what conditions do these breeders keep their animals in.

Anyway, sorry is I sounded harsh or like an ass.

No need to apologize at all!! It's all good!
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Genesis 1:1

I really like this: "Yes, if your husbandry is good, then yes, you should EXPECT things to work out. However, if you do have a lot of experience, you will realize that is not always the case. There is always factors that nature, NOT YOU THE KEEPER, will have control over."

DISCERN, the best thing to save your sanity is to quit while you're ahead around here.

Whenever I read this forum I'm reminded of Dr. Ian Malcolm of Jurassic Park fame...you guys all need to pick up a copy and read it over a beer (probably would take a lot more than that)...hold onto your butts because I don't want any of you to have a god damn conniption...

Chaos Theory. Nothing will ever be predictable or controllable. You can approximate something, but it will never be perfect. Nor will your result be perfect every time. Nature evolves from deviations. And...life will find a way.

I'm out. My colubrids and pythons both are fat and happy (except the weirdo hognose, but she looks HUNGRY!). Have a good weekend!

GIFSoup

(Spoilers below.)

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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the earth.
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You ever talk to me like that again...and I'll turn your balls into earrings. Understand?

Go for it.

heres what your missing, it doesn't matter who did it, or how many did it, or if I did it. Weak babies are a sign of the type of husbandry being applied.

These animals, all the snakes you mentioned, are designed to florish, as long as there is support, normally food and water, the rest is there in nature.

In nature they have super strong neonates, but, most do not survive, they fail from lack of support, again, normally food and water, and the occasional car tire and raccoon etc.

In captivity, they are the same unit and what allows them to succeed or fail is US. You, I and Gregg(all of us)

They are the constant, we keepers are the variable, we simply do not apply husbandry the same. You will constantly read here, oh I do that the same as you, only different, I live here and this and that. Oh and I feed on Tuesdays and thurdays, but so and so feeds daily, etc

What is bothersome is, you and the other poster, want it to be about good guys and bad guys and condensending A burrows. ITs not, its about results and results are comparable.
If Gregg has healthy second clutch neonates on a consistant basis, and your friends do not. Then that's simple, Greggs husbandry is better. As measured by results. So what do you fellas want to do, copy the ones who produce weak neonates, or learn to produce strong neonates?

Is there "bad" individuals out there, YES, but its normally from poor husbandry. They simply are not bullet proof. Best wishes

discern,

yes, she is really that small. i keep very accurate records and weigh the beginning of every month. her weights are...

march 10g
april 10g
may 12g
june 16g
july 16g
current 19g

she has eaten 17 times since i acquired her march 8th. her feeding pattern varies between a week and 2 weeks apart. i would be thrilled with every 5 days from her! lol at this rate, she might be breeding size by the end of the decade

i had not thought about something internally being wrong. she is apparently healthy, active, and great muscle tone.

yes, she is from a second clutch. hhhmmm.... that is one that aspect that i had not thought about. i suppose that could be caused by the female using so much of her energy and reserves on the first and the second clutch doesn't get quite as much?

i have tried just about everything i can imagine with her. i think you might be right that some just take longer to reach breedable size.

honestly, i try to believe the best in people. i have been burnt by 2 "reputable" breeders in the last 6 months with hogs though. one sent me a snake with a severe musk gland infection, VERY skinny, and got a health rating of "chronic" from the vet the day after she was shipped to me. the other misrepresented a "juvenile" conda female to me. i found out later that she was over a year older than he stated. she had been the bad type of "maintenance fed" for 2 1/2yrs and only 69g.

that being said, i try to believe the best, but don't put it past some people greed to sell something that is less than up to par. some people are just greedy and don't care about getting over on someone else. i have more than reasonable cause to be suspicious.

that may not be the case here however. she might just be a slow grower or i might not have found the perfect environment or way of offering food to make her thrive. that is why i ask for other's opinions and experiences. i weigh those, and draw my own conclusions

thanks for the feedback...
jonathan

Yeah man, your hog may simply be telling you that she simply does not want to eat as much as the other hogs.

Of course, you may get blamed by the insecure that frequent these boards, telling you that you are doing it all wrong, how it is all of your fault that she is not growing like weeds, and that your husbandry is bad, and all of that blah, blah, blah. Healthy, constructive input is one thing. The other, well, you know by reading some comments here.

You had mentioned that you fed every 3 days with the other hogs. I personally do not do that with the few hogs I have had, as I feel that you do not need to feed them that often, but that is me. I know hog breeders that had their hogs do wonderful growing on once a week feedings as well. She may simply be one of those snakes that does not want to eat as often as your other ones. My hog here ate every 5 days in his first year, and every 7 in his second. Got to breeding size before the second year hit.

But, again, not all snakes grow as fast as others. Your female may take another year or two, maybe not? Not every snake is the same. And it may not even matter if she is a second clutch or not. Just when you mentioned how small she was, that was the first thing I thought of and my experiences. If her muscle tone is great, weight is great, etc, I would not change a thing. Keep doing what you are doing. Enjoy her, and she just may be one that takes a little more time and patience.

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Genesis 1:1

PLease think about this, what you do, is yours to do. But your constanding telling others its OK, is where the problem i.

Also your name calling(Of course, you may get blamed by the insecure that frequent these boards, telling you that you are doing it all wrong,. Sir, its not my or Greggs animals that are slow and picky. Its yours and others, so insecurity is all about you and your name calling. I constantly remind you, its about the animals. Which means, its not about you or anyone personally. I constantly mention husbandry, not individual people.

The problem is you are setting what is normal or acceptable, and not the animals. An example is, your hog becoming sexually mature in two years. Which is find and dandy, with the possible exception that both in nature and in captivity, males become sexually mature in 8 months(or less) and commonly. (as shown above)

So what your offering as normal, is only normal or good for you. And please, if your happy, great. Why do you go on and on that folks have to think what your doing is "normal"

The reality is, these animals have a range of potential. Your growth reflects the lower reaches of that potential.

There are other methods that allow animals to reach the upper ranges potential.

Whats interesting to me is, nature has droughts, floods, shorages predators, and more, in captivity, those things are avoidable. Yet your male is four times slower then the hogs I am watching in nature. Sir, that is telling.

Lastly, Gregg nor I, have never told you, YOU DISCERN have to change your ways. You don't have to, we never said you have to.
I cannot speak for Gregg, but I can care less how you keep your animals. But the constant preaching to others that your right, is very odd. Two years for a male hog is way less then normal. Best of luck

Well isn't about the snake, and its only ramblings if you look at it from a recipe point of view, instead of the animals point of view.

Again, what is normal is to grasp prey as fast as possible and determine if its edible later. That would be a normal feeding response. Another way to look at it is, how long would a reluctant feeder live in nature, if it was picky and reluctant to feed.

Nature is backwards to us, hunger and the will to feed is ALWAYS full on during feeding season, the question is, finding prey, any prey, prey of many types. Prey may not be available. Or some types may not be available.

Toads, lizards, eggs of everything, etc, are normal prey types, but each year, their abundance varies, so they must find what is available or perish.

You are very right to ask WHY is your snake doing that. The what I address is how many get go about trying it right. Many resort to tricks, such as scenting and bags and such. I only recommend looking at conditions. Best of luck with your snake

Hi GHW, I would not hate anyone for what they do with their captives, as long as they are trying. This is only a hobby. Heck, I have friends that still kill snakes, even relatives.

I just think lose track of what they are doing sometimes and what they are doing it with. For instance in this case.

If you look at the animals and what they are, it will give you an idea of what IS NORMAL(to the animal) Once you understand what normal is, problem solving becomes possible or even easy.

What seems to be lacking is a basic understanding of what is normal.

Snakes all snakes, normally feed with gusto and aggressively. Therefore if an individual does not, you must understand something is wrong. Please understand, no more and no less. Something is wrong. That entertains the question of what is wrong.

You could entertain what you mentioned, like something happened in incubation. But seriously while possible, its of no help and does no good for you or your animal. There is nothing you can do, so you don't do anything. The chances of that occurring and the animal surviving a month are so low, its not worth thinking about. So two strikes against that.

The reality is, Mental security and physical security, are the areas 99.9% of feeding problems occur. So I would look in these areas. THe problem in this forum and many others is, people do not look to the animals for the answer, they tend to look for a recipe from others for the answer. They look at these things as rules, when in fact, they are only guidelines. In otherwords, if it don't work change it. And it is that simple. The animals do vary, so how come husbandry doesn't. In most cases, husbandry is applied as if the animals are a object, non living with no behavior. But they do have behavior and individual behavior. End of part 1

My field partner explained it to me one day, long ago. If they all did the same thing, a simple change in the environment could erase the whole population. Nature is smarter then that, Individual variation allows for survival.

A great example occurred here some years back. We have mountain kings in our mountains. They live mostly in the ground, but sometimes up in rock outcrops and dead trees, or hollows in live trees.

There has been several massive fires burning hundreds of thousands of acres. Those hollows and dead trees and the mountain kings inside are erased, but the individuals deep in the ground are fine. Even the individuals that were near the surface were erased. Those populations are back to ground dwellers.

So nature makes sure, there are always individuals to carry on. Even when it occurs in the opposite direction, massive floods can erase the ground dwellers and the individuals higher up survive, as least temporarily.

In nature, your animal would simply be culled from the population, but this is not nature and your not willing to cull it, so how about thinking out of the box and trying stuff normal to the animal. Best wishes

I had a female that was eating fine until she went to a new home. She stopped eating, I had them try everything temper change, more hides, senting, ect. Finally they fed a greed tree frog which she ate, the next week she was back on pinkies. Moral, they are individuals. Keep trying until you discover what that one needs.

vanperry,

thanks, i will keep trying. i tried scenting with lizards and tree frogs. she ate the lizard scent once and won't touch it again. i did not actually offer her the lizard or frog because i'm afraid of parasites.

last weekend she ate an unscented live fuzzy. she probably won't eat for another 2 weeks :/ seems like she feeds once every week or 2 no matter what it is.

jonathan

They are individuals, Try moving the cage contents into the new cage, when you move a snake.

Silly as it sounds, but I would always leave something they grew up with in the cage.

In most cases, it merely allowed continued rapid growth. When I didn't, I would often lose a month of growth. Best wishes

The bottom line is, some snakes are born healthy and can thrive either in the wild or captivity while others cannot. The good news is, hognose are a species that generally do quite well in captivity, but obviously there are a few out there that challenge us sometimes leaving us wondering what it is we might be doing wrong, but the absolute truth is, not every hatchling that is born is going to be 100% perfect healthwise and it has absolutely nothing to do with husbandry, some are just defective whether it's genetic or caused by external environmental issues such as incorrect incubation temps or several other factors.

I'm a bit disappointed in Gregg's statement "There is no such thing as a "problem snake".". Well, that's a completely false statement and he actually knows this to be true, not on a massive scale but definitely with specific individuals that don't adhere to the "program".

Yes, husbandry issues can be blamed for a lot of different problems, especially when it comes to utilizing generalized care for the masses while there's those few individuals that require something completely different, fine tuned just for them. This is where we as keepers can fail the individual if we are not observant or willing to alter our husbandry to fit the needs of the individual.

For example, I am one of the very few breeders that will take months, and I'm talking up to 6 months, to establish non-eating hognose. Most of my peers will give up on individuals within a month and just focus on the masses, some citing that they believe there's something wrong with those snakes and that their eating behaviours are faulty or even genetic in nature. This is a complete myth! Some animals just require different triggers to get them to respond.

Now, having said that, I don't criticize nor condemn my peers for culling non-instantly-eating hognose as I understand their reasons for not wanting to spend the time and energy it takes for a single individual, especially when they are working with hundreds of hatchlings that will readily eat without any intervention, it's simply the path of least resistance and it basically comes down to trying to run their business operations as smoothly as possible. The thing that frustrates me is their fallacious excuses for culling these individuals, blaming made-up myths as being the cause for these animals not instantly wanting to eat whatever it is we're offering them.

Case in point...

I hatched out a single Amel male from a het to het pairing from a clutch of 8 eggs. All 7 of his siblings pretty much ate f/t pinkies within a month, but not this little guy. He went 2 months without eating before I decided to intervene and forcefeed him using a gavage feeding needle with beef baby food. Sometimes this can kick start the digestive system with the hopes that the snake will willfully eat on it's own the next time or two. Well, this didn't happen with this guy. 2 weeks went by with no interest in mice, so I pushed some more baby food in him, and still no reaction.

One important thing to note here is that all this while, he was never really active, he simply just layed coiled up the majority of the time.

So I waited another month and nothing. At this point, it had been about 3 1/2 months of offering him f/t pinks, live pinks, scented pinks (both live and f/t) and even water misted pinks, at this point nothing was working, he simply wasn't interested in anything. So I took away his water bowl for a week and a half and let him get good and thirsty. Well, his next offering was another water misted f/t pinky and this time he was so thirsty he started drinking feverishly off of the pinky and while watching him, I could see that he really seemed awkward opening his mouth, like he didn't know to open his mouth, he was simply drinking through the tongue gap in his jaw, but this time he was realizing that he needed to open his mouth to actually start chewing on the pinky. This took about 30 minutes before he actually opened his mouth wide enough to start feeding on the pinky, but then I noticed that instead of the normal "chewing" method that snakes do to swallow their prey, he was moving his jaw like he was still drinking which obviously made this very difficult for him to swallow the pinky with any ease. It actually took him another 30 minutes to swallow the pinky but he finally did it, he ate on his own! I was so excited!

So I figured that he would willingly eat again by next week. Well, this did not happen, in fact, he refused food for 3 weeks, then he turned blue, shed and a whole month had passed since he had eaten. Needless to say, I was extremely worried that he would resume his non-eating stance, but I was wrong! After he shed, he resumed eating, although it took him a good 2 weeks of feeding to finally master the normal technique of swallowing his food, but he did figure it out. After 5 months of patiently working with him, he finally ate on his own and now he's one of my more active hogs and an extremely aggressive eater! A once shy non-active non-eating snake that now readily comes up to me and will eat off of the tongs regular dry f/t pinkies. I honestly believe that if this individual were in any of my peers' collection, he would have perished within a month, 2 max simply because he would have been "diagnosed" as a problem feeder and not worth the time and effort to establish.

Here's my little Amel. I'm very proud of him for overcoming his eating disorder!

That's one of my many success stories for dealing with problem eaters and it had nothing to do so much with generalized husbandry so much as it had to do with patience and effort in working with the rogue individual that had diffculty learning adapt in captivity.

However, there are those individuals that simply have other issues that cannot be remedied no matter how hard you work with them. I had a Pink Pastel female that I purchased as a hatchling and raised for about 4 years. She was a problem eater, eating only once every 2-6 months with the occasional regurges occuring about every 3rd or 4th feeding. Obviously she was a stunted snake, only weighing about 150 grams after 3 years while hogs the same age or younger than her were already pushing or far past 300 grams. Well, one day out of the blue, almost overnight, she developed this huge bulge in her mid-section, about the size of an egg. I was a bit perplexed by this as I never bred her but I thought perhaps that she was just going through an egg producing cycle and was going to pass an infertile slug, so I just kept an eye on her. Well, after 4 or 5 days, she simply keeled over and died with this bulge still in her. So I decided to perform an autopsy and see what this bulge was. I was amazed to discover that it wasn't an egg but a tumor. Included below are links to 2 pictures showing the removal and dissection of the tumor, it's very graphic, so don't open it if such things are found to be disturbing.

***WARNING GRAPHIC DISSECTION PICTURES***
Dissection picture 1
Dissection picture 2

Obviously, this individual had physical issues that were outside and beyond any issues with husbandry. In fact, a lot of us believe that some of the original Pink Pastel lines might have some genetic issues with them and several of my peers, including myself, consider the Pink Pastel gene to have certain genetic deficiencies as many of us have had significant issues with this specific morph but we are trying to weed out these problems by selective outcrossing and we are now starting to see a strengthening of the Pink Pastel morph from some of the clutches we've been hatching out. So there is hope!

My point in writing all of this out is, there can be many factors that can contribute to the success or failure of any particular individual whether it's due to husbandry issues or other issues with the animal. Obviously, husbandry issues we can usually correct while other issues outside of husbandry we cannot such as behaviours or physical impairments. Perhaps you are doing everything in your power to offer your particular problem animal the best husbandry you can and it's got other issues that are outside the realm of your knowledge or anybody else for that matter. Then again, it might be one of those finicky animals that simply require a lot of fine tuning outside the normal scope of husbandry that you are offering your other animals.

The bottom line is, don't give up and even with terminal animals, use them as a learning experience so that you can refine your understanding and techniques to apply to the next problematic animal which might apply or yet offer you an entirely different set of problems to figure out and learn from.

Good luck!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

" The bottom line is, some snakes are born healthy and can thrive either in the wild or captivity while others cannot. The good news is, hognose are a species that generally do quite well in captivity, but obviously there are a few out there that challenge us sometimes leaving us wondering what it is we might be doing wrong, but the absolute truth is, not every hatchling that is born is going to be 100% perfect healthwise and it has absolutely nothing to do with husbandry, some are just defective whether it's genetic or caused by external environmental issues such as incorrect incubation temps or several other factors. "

Perfectly stated, and the best post in this whole mess so far.

At first, you should always look at your husbandry. That is a given, and somewhat common sense. Duh. But..always blaming the husbandry, to be the be-all end-all, of any problems is actually living in denial about the fact that, like you said, not every hatchling is born 100 % healthwise. Been proven. Time and time again. Tell that to someone who has studied reptile biology and medicine. This thing called " Science " is a scawy word.....

Everyone who has kept snakes, a large amount, or bred, for a long time, has experienced either some baby snake born that did not do well, or had a snake in their collection die, after thriving for years on end, for no apparent given reason.

Same with other animals.

Same with humans. I was born two months early, and was completely jacked up physically, and was supposed to die. I was in the hospital for months. Good thing the doctors didn't pull what many breeders do, and stick me in the freezer in a deli cup because I was not doing well at first, much less not being the newest and biggest morph out there.

HA HA!!!!

I remember the doctors telling my mom and dad, that their husbandry was not good enough.

HA HA!

We could go all day on this....( snicker )

Great post Troy!! As usual, you completely hit the nail on the head.
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Genesis 1:1

You could say that, but then, you can say anything.

What actually occurs is, in nature, the animals are culled each and every year for thousands of years. So only the strong, of the strong of the strong pass their genes. So I do disagree with you. Nature is cruel, it culls for any and all reasons, the weak, are erased and erased and erased. A phenotype hognose, is the product of hundreds to thousands of years of culling. Again, I doubt they are suppose to be individuals that just don't want to feed.

In captivity, those hardwire genetics of survival are very hard to modify, it can be done, but such work is self correcting, if it produces deleterious genetics, it stops existing

Of course color and pattern are fluid, in both captivity and nature. Those are very loose genes. Which is why they are not used for taxonomy.

All the line and inbreeding normally does not effect those hardwired genes, and if it did, there would be a huge and consistent failure. Ask anyone that's expert in genetics.

Weak individuals are common due to poor support, poor incubation, etc, Those are husbandry issues.

There is absolutely no evidence that what we are talking about is a genetic issue.

You of all people who excels in being totally accurate, are assuming that some are just going to die and that's the way it is? That is not accurate or even reasonable in any way. That type of statement is a product of naivety.

Doing your genetics, your envolved in math. With that in mind, The chance these UNRELATED animals are genetic misfits, is nearly zero. They chance that its husbandry related in very very high.

Just the fact that all keepers are individuals and do not practice the exact same husbandry, even if they try, truly increases the chance its husbandry related.

If you are breeding misfits to misfits and that results in weak hatchlings, then that is a poor husbandry practice, is it not?

End of part 1

Poor husbandry is not just not supporting full function. ITs also about physical damage that can occur from poor husbandry.

Simple dehydration causes damage to the kidneys, and its not always dramatic or fatal.

Liver damage is another area that causes longterm "weakness" in reptiles. Again, these are husbandry related.

Please educate me, explain how some are just suppose to die. What, are you tuning raccoons loose in their cages????????

troy,

great post! i very much agree with all that you wrote. thanks for sharing.

with my experience with raising other colubrids over the last couple of decades as a hobbyist, i have had a few problem feeders and a few that had serious health issues for whatever reason. i have also had lots that thrived. i think that is just nature. i very much agree that some might require special attention and techniques. i believe others are born with physical issues that can not be fixed with tweaking husbandry. not all animals are born perfect.

while gregg stated that he has never had a problem feeder, i have had another hognose breeder besides yourself tell me that they have otherwise. i try to listen to everyone and draw my own conclusions

i have been and will continue to try different techniques with this girl. the frustrating part is she eats, just not very frequently. maybe she will take off one of these days and thrive.

jonathan

p.s. i forgot to add that i believe some animals will not thrive and grow at the same rate or to the same size as the majority. with these few, i think you can tweak husbandry all you want and not get the optimum growth results. i'm hoping my girl is not one of these few though and will pick up the pace soon

jonathan

Heres what you want, you only want someone to agree with you, so you feel better. So do you feel better? If so, great.

That you have many many/several, that do not do so well, indicates, you have room to grow and learn. Learning and growing if fun.

Wouldn't it be nice to not have problematic animals?

Personally, I feel I am responsible for what occurs in my cages. I either support their success or I hinder it. I am the one who put them in my cage. So to blame the animal for anything is odd to me. As the animal would rather be out of the cages. If you don't believe me, open the cage door and leave and see what happens. If the animal comes back and stays the cage, I will congratulate you. You must have offered something of value to the animal.

GHW, thinks her problem individual in chronically impaired(sick) and that is entirely possible. A vet visit can determine that. Or not. Sorry, some vets are not so good.

If you would question this problem, you would be seeking answers, not being patted on the back. After all, all the patting on your back will not help that animal.

What will help that animal is you actively seeking ways to help it become normal. In all reality, you may not fine that, but at least you tried.

So while you go on and on about not liking me cause I am condescending(1.Acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority.) or some such. Lets look at that, how could I not, I have done this successfully for over fifty years, and you are a beginner. I have no choice or ability to avoid being condescending when there is that much difference in experience. I do treat you folks as equals and adults.

What I don't like is, folks who refuse to be responsible for the animals they put in their cages. So there is the problem.