Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thank you for your interest and participation in this thread.
I agree so far to the post of “skind”, the Hurricanes look is close to the Trick’s – judged by the first look.
I’m glad that the other posts give me the opportunity to clear some facts:
There are a four words sounding in my ears, after I’ve read your answers:
Trick=Fraud=Thief=Liar
You’re judging fast and hard! May like to ask you to think about the following?
I am already the most famous reptile breeder in Europe, professional in business since 1976.
Famous - because of my experience and my gorgeous collection of animals.
Also in the US I’m known very well and friend with the most VIPs in the US reptile business.
If you would be in business for a longer time you could’ve met me vending many times at Daytona Beach or at about 50 Hamm shows.

As long as there is a Superform in Hurricanes out of five eggs from breeding two Hurricanes
hatching 1 normal, 3 Hurricanes and 1 Super Hurricane is the normal rate.
I think everyone agrees so far.

How do you estimate the chance of producing 1 normal, 3 Hurricanes and 1 very odd looking Hurricane out of this clutch? 1:10 000?
Yes, I know that I still have to proof the Superform to work as a Super.

As the Superform of the Trick, a picture of an animal just looking like a Pastel was introduced, right?
The Super Hurricane is an outstanding patterned morph providing every other morph it will be bred to not only with an incredible beautiful pattern but also some reddish color as you'll see soon when I will post pics of some new Hurricane combos.

Thank you Kevin Harrison, contributing that bad experience with that little crippled dead Trick Pewter.
Though pic’s leading into another interesting question:
Where are that Superforms and Superform combos produced with the Trick, been proven already long ago?

Trick=Fraud=Thief=Liar

With the Best Regards,Hans Winner

As I am new to Ball Pythons and breeding, my words here will mean very little. I have met many breeders. Most are humble and do everything they can to help "the new guy". Some? Know it all and everything they say is Gods word. The "some"? I laugh at to their face and walk away. No sale for them or me talking to them again.

I have noticed, on this forum, there are a lot of the "some" breeders here. I have spent my life as a tattoo artist. I have to say that, I am used to this BS.

I think your snakes are great. That many years in, I believe you know what you are talking about. I am sure I could learn a lot from you and look forward to seeing new morphs from you.

Jason

The picture I posted has nothing to do with any problems in the trick gene the baby did not make it due to a power outage killing power to my incubator the picture was to show that trick babies vary from animal to animal there is no proof that you have a super of anything looks like a nice example of normal tricks I have seen some have striping some don't some have a stronger pattern than others the same goes for all ball pythons no two are identical but there is absolutely no problems in the trick gene so don't try to play that game since you got busted it was just to show the back stripe only thing wrong with that egg was human error
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Kevin Harrison
Too many pythons and boas to count

Kevin, I apologize. If it's understood like this, really it wasn't my intention. I've had written an answer about 3700 signs but kingsnake allows only 2000. I had to cancel some sentences not so important and so this miswriting might happened. I'm not playing any games related to my business, never. By thinking about missing Superforms and combos in quantities at the market I associated the picture with possibly hidden problems of that gene.
Ones more sorry if I have offended you,
Hans

I have not used the words theif or crook or anything my post simpl y showed pictures of a few tricks to show that what he is calling a new animal looks the exact same as something already established
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Kevin Harrison
Too many pythons and boas to count

and I really cant see anyone investing in either project except other ball python people. The general public snake buyer couldn't care less about this "awesome" new "morph"

I wouldn't worry about it Hans. People only know what they read and see, not whats going on in the rest of the world. Keep doing your thing and don't worry about what others have to say. May be a similar morph , but a different bloodline , so who knows how it can react compared to US existing combos. Might make nicer stuff, or "different" stuff. There are about 4-6 lines of "fire" all with different names, and quite a few show better results when crossed, or even at super form. If I were to start bigger projects, I would pick my line carefully to get different results that I like, not just go for cheapest, or most available type.
Its great that someone went out of their way to develop a snake they saw potential in, even if not bought from an existing line, and saw it through.

I produced some gorgeous, funky, killer looking Leopards,and Albino Leopard Boas with two animals I got from you in Daytona many years ago. I am glad I got to hand pick them, now there are 3-4 lines of "leopard boas" from different sources, and its the same scenario. People are going to buy from which line they like best, and how that line interacts with things. Its not a dead end, these things can be developed more and more.

Thank you for your kind words.
It's a shame, the third time in a row I'm missing the NRBA at Daytona Beach this year. That huge Reptile Show which is for reptile enthusiasts the perfect short holidays. I'm missing many friends I only could meet there in person once a year. Ther was always so much fun with you. I whish everyone have a good show at the weekend there!
Hans

Holy crap!!! Just caught this thread. I'm gonna throw this out there. I bought an 09 black pastel from Gary. Proved him out trick carrier. What a mess and a great surprise! I love the tricks. I would have to say in my opinion the hurricane is probably the same as a trick. Look at the blitz. Trick? They are so similar. Time will tell. I don't know Hans but you have to give him credit for having an eye for seeing something different and proving out the hurricane. Did Gary sell him a trick or black pastel?

I too understand it can be a new blood line. My response to the original post below clearly states that. I understand both sides and somehow ruffled some feathers it seems.
My main concern is renaming morphs prior to breeding them with their possible predecessors that do show strong visual similarities. Patience and breeding trials to prove these possible new morphs out has gone by the way side for a lot of breeders. Look at BELs; how many morphs with different names can produce them? To the normal eye (like mine) how do you tell what gene(s) were used to produce a white snake with blue or black eyes. I've been breeding Balls for a long time and I can't tell. Just think if every Yellow Belly or Pastel that came in to the country had a different name?
I feel renaming has been done far too many times in the past and will continue. The end result is very confusing to someone new wanting to breed Ball Pythons.
It feels like one breeder just trying to top another at times.
We have many great breeders in this industry/hobby that have produced the "first" in this business and been deprived by others greed trying to be the next big name breeder. The almighty dollar and popularity contest have created many egos to over inflate. I have made a very good living for many years breeding snakes. When I'm ask what I do for a living my response is "I clean snake s^%t" hey it's the truth We are an extremely small fish (snake breeders) in a very large pond.
""Famous"" we are not.

As with any industry you have those that you are proud to associate with, purchase their products (like ball pythons) and willingly give a good reference for. And then there are others . . . . examples can be seen in this thread and the thread below.

I would be proud to own one of your beautiful Hurricanes; whether they are another line of the Trick or not. Good luck with your future breeding!

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Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room

Buy a "TRICK" then.

I guess that means I am one of the others then. I would rather be one of them than say CONGRATULATIONS to a man who has committed outright plagiarism to a fellow breeder.

You do know he is in Germany right? Its not plagiarism - we do not know how it works with other morphs, if it reacts same way as tricks or enchances better or worse. He developed it and out bred it to several morphs in his country. He developed a similar, maybe even same type, of morph. He did the work behind it on his end, in his country, and made some combos and thinks he produced the super form? There is no reason to be mean about it. He stumbled upon a similar gene like many others have before him.
I actually would be hesitant if he had said hey I have a new line of trick - that would have caused more of an uproar. Then everyone would have said how do you know? did you breed them together, etc.
It can be like cinny vs black pastel - still early and not a bad thing to differentiate blood lines if it is the same in the end and the results are the same. Better then trick #2.

I would like Hans to go back and take a look of the genetics "family tree" of the "Hurricane" morph and post it. What is the dame and sire, where did you buy those, and what is their dame and sir and where were those purchased or acquired from? Hans, show us the correct information. I don't care if you have been in the business since 1976 or if you are a first time breeder. I have been alive for many years, but that does not make me a professional at breathing air. I feel if you are a "Professional of the Industry" you would keep records of the dames and sires of all of your clutches. If you are unable to produce those records then I believe that you are indeed a FRAUD. There is way too much, renaming morphs in the industry. I feel that you only a few supporters on this forum and most are in fact totally against your accusations of being the first to produce this morph. If you can prove out the "Hayabusa" AKA "Super Trick", then I feel that you should get the recognition of producing that morph. Many professional breeders and some amateur breeders in fact wait to prove out their animals before making claims public. My personal opinion of you is so bad of you right now that I cannot post what I think of you without being banned from this forum. I feel that your "professionalism" has clouded you judgement, in fact I don't feel like you are a professional at all.

I would like „CedarRidge“to go back and look for the information he’s inquiring for just by himself.
Around beginning September 2012 I’ve posted the required information in several German, British and US forums.
I’m not sure but think I also didn’t miss this place here.
I also was chosen to publish the whole story about the history of the “Hurricane” in the catalog for the 47th Hamm show in 2012.
I’m very sorry that you’ve missed that trains.
Though it’s not me who is responsible for any lacks in your knowledge about things going on in the world of Ball Pythons outside the US.
Perhaps Facebook might be an alternative for you to get some additional info, but stay friendly there - people will block you otherwise.
At least I just want to say that your own words disqualify you for getting anymore explanations about any genetics from me.

Someone who’s believing one could just “breed” a new Basic morph out of any dam or sire is not on an acceptable level that I might waste my time with.
Go and read some books, after that you can try again to bash someone for his honest work.
Don’t miss next time to choose someone who cares for!

Hans-Jörg Winner

Btw: just for your pleasure:
Following picture shows a Enchi Hurricane Lesser CB13, just hatched yesterday:

That is one beautiful animal

Thank you very much!
Hans

Hans just listen to yourself. And I quote you saying "I am already the most famous reptile breeder in Europe, professional in business since 1976.
Famous - because of my experience and my gorgeous collection of animals.". You write this because you are a arrogant jerk and you are self-centered. You are looking for fame and this is the only way you know how to get it. And by the way, for all of you who think I am a scared man who hides behind his screen name, I have updated my signature so those of you can figure out who I am. I to have produced a first in the ball python world but I don't go around making it sound as if I am a "God" of the industry. And if you have the need to figure out what I produced, then do YOUR research then.
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Dustin Schnelle

1.0 Albino
0.1 Het. Albino
0.1 Black Mojo
0.1 Black Pastel
0.1 Black Pastave
1.0 Black Pewter
1.0 Black Widow
0.1 Jungle Love
0.1 Mojave Bee
0.1 Pastave Bee
1.0 Piebald
0.1 Spider
1.0 Trick

I know very well that I can be an arrogant jerk if required. What's wrong with that?
Though if you're interested in discussing my person we might have to change the place.
I'm sure you'll understand that I will not reveal my inner out here?
If beside my morph and my person perhaps it also is the look of mine you want to say a few bad words about, here we go. This is me as you can see me at the next Hamm show on September 14th, again.

Hans

or the whole hole?
.
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........JY

I think your arrogant attitude leaves a lot to be desired.

Dave

Who?

It should be obvious, and if it is not, that explains a lot.

Dave

Beleave me, you'll laugh about your ignorance as soon as I let you know the difference. It is obvious, easy to see if you know it once!
For a little help one more picture of some Hurricane combos from 2012.
With the Best Regards,
Hans

I never said anything about your snake, don't need another picture, I have seen 50 posts of yours over several boards already. I commented on YOU, and your response that seemed arrogant. I can see why people do not like or respect you, THAT is pretty easy to spot once you know what to look for, no pictures needed.

Dave

Thank you once more to everyone contributing to the theme.

In the end I'm a bit disappointed about the missing of true interest in the theme and the way the "Trick Owners' Club" is trying to save their claims.

Is anyone aware that you even missed to ask where I might see a difference between the Hurricane and the Trick?
Don't worry!
There's are important differences between the two morphs, it's far to late and not necessary to annoy the existence and beauty of the Hurricanes and the Hayabusa.
Beside the for everyone obvious main difference in their Super forms (btw. I still couldn't find many pictures of the Trick's Super form or combos containing a Super),
also the heterozygous stages of both morphs show significant differences in pattern and color.
Might be it's a bit more difficult to find out than comparing some other morphs.
For everyone's interested in I've many, many pictures on Facebook. All my folders there are currently open to the public. My Facebook name is Hans-Jörg Winner , perhaps you need to copy and paste my name because American keyboards miss the German letter "ö".
Looking forward to provide everyone interested in with some pictures of some outstanding snakes there.

Hans-Jörg Winner

Hurricane Lesser Platinum CB13: