Reptile & Amphibian Forums

....dont flame me just because you dont feel the same way i do.

*I* personaly believe some Leopard Geckos are as destroying the reptile community. People are turning the hobby into a business. Im sick of reading posts such as "What morph is this? How much is it worth? How much would you pay for this? Will this be a baldy?", etc. More and more people are aiming to reach the highest and best morph, and jack up the price ridiculous levels. Im also sick of seeing "less" or in some cases "ugly" leos being treated like crap, and other rare or expensive leos are living in luxury (trust me, i seen it happen, and it continues). Im not aiming this post at any breeders out there, and am not blaming anyone. I just believe it should stop, and the newbies or beginners out there shouldnt aim at buying the best or coolest morph they can buy to show off theyre friends, or to be known as the 'guy with the coolest morph selling it at $100000000', and try to get rich.

I see some leos priced $1000+, and in another site the same exact color, brightness, etc priced at $50. Personally, this doesnt make sense to me.

Dont think of me as some moron with no money to buy morphs or phases because im poor or anything (im only 15 BTW), and with nothing better to do with his life, because its not true. I too have a leo. I had a choice between an albino, a normal, and a patternless/blizzard (couldnt tell which are which). I chose the normal. I think the normals are the nicest phase there is (and again, dont think of me trying to support my argument above. I really mean it). And im hoping to continue on breeding NORMALS, and hopefully only NORMALS. Im not afraid to say that im not impressed with a blizzard with red eyes (which is outrageous IMO because some people are just breeding albino x blizzard a thousand times hoping to pop out a blazing), or a hypo with 100% carrot tail.

Again, dont think of me as trying to start an argument in any way. I just want to hear all of your opinions on $2000 morphs. Dont get me wrong, i believe leos are an excellent, if not the best beginner reptile, but im just disquisted as to how some lesser phases are being looked at as opposed to others. Also, im not blaming only leos with the morphs/phases, prices, etc, because there are others out there. Snakes for example. Im just not copying/pasting a hundred copies to each forum.

I hope to hear some of your opinions on this, and again dont take this as an attack.

M.N

I understand where you are coming from. And as much as I tease people for "fru-fru" type fancy geckos - I still like them too. But I also like normals - and I have a project you might be interested. Try breeding cool and unique looking normals together - you might get something that's fun/cool and relatively inexpensive.

Leos are definitely cool lizards. But I caution you against ripping people who want to make a few bucks at it. After all - it's the American way. . . .

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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

Mealworms . . . .you can't eat just one

What is wrong with trying to produce nicer and nicer leopard geckos every year? And what is wrong with having a hobby that turns into a business that actually allows a person to make money doing something they are passionate about? Is that not what most people dream about?

I also don't think it is ridiculous to put a high price on a beautiful leopard gecko. I personally don't work with any of the "normal" leos anymore because I didn't like having to sell them in 10 lots for $100. I felt as if they were becoming disposable pets and I didn't want to contribute to the wholesale market any more. Now I breed (for the most part) higher end leopard geckos that cost a good deal more than a normal leo. I like that. I think a person willing to shell out a few hundred dollars for a leopard gecko, whether for an investment in their breeding colony, or as a pet, will take really good care of it, versus the kid that spends $15 on a normal leo from Petco or wherever (please no one take offense to that, it is just an example).

As far as pricing goes, that is up to each individual breeder. I know that, for me, any leo I price over $500 has to be a one of a kind animal. And I do agree with you that $2000 is an insane price to spend on a leopard gecko! I am a breeder and I wouldn't even spend that kind of $$$$$!!!!

Anyway, just another point of view, and don't worry, no offense was taken by me when I read your post
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

This year i bred plenty of normal geckos as well as several higher end geckos and i sold them between prices of FREE and $300, but I can assure you that each and every one of them was treated with the exact same care. And to support what Kelli said, I dont even sell most of my normals, i GIVE THEM TO PEOPLE WHO I KNOW ARE GOOD HOMES, because that means more to me than 10 or 15 bucks. Also, I'm a 19 year old college student and in the last month i've dropped about $1300 improving my stock of geckos because it's very possible to have something that is both a hobby and a business. I'm not out to become a millionaire but if I can make some money that will help fund my obsession with geckos, than so be it

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(alebron just bought up a very good point.)

If you had the cash to buy an expensive morph, why not buy an expensive, but THREATENED or ENDANGERED species to work with? Personally, thats what i would have done. It may be alot of work and searching, but its worth it for me. Some species are going extinct everyday. Why not try to be the only guy in town with a rare species, other than the only guy in town with a nice morph, but a COMMON species? Wouldnt that be alot rewarding?

Again, it may be difficult, but personally, i would take the risk...

You can't do something that you don't have a passion for..I breed leos because I love them and I'm fascinatet with them, which is why i'm able to give them so much time and attention, I can't just pretend that I like something else as much due to the fact that it's not as common. Two different kinds of lizards can be the difference between day and night..its like telling someone who breeds to dogs to bread bald eagles instead because they're endangered, if that's how you feel than it's great that you're going to help out and try and save those species, but don't tell other people that what they're doing is wrong, it all comes down to what you love.
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That post wasnt intented to tell people what to do, i just said that if "I" had the money, i wouldnt keep trying to create a blizzard with red eyes, or an albino thats the brightest orange ever, etc, but to have something more rewarding (like saving a species (which you DO have passion for)other than creating different colors on common species).

I wasnt trying to tell you what to do, just what "I" would have done...

M.N

Which endangered species ought we be buying? If they're not being bred widely in captivity that means that the ones you're getting will probably be wild caught. Taking care of a wild caught animal and then getting it to breed takes tons of experience and is much harder than breeding leos. Even the rarer CB lizards are harder to take care of because of the paucity of husbandry information- you're pretty much on your own. It's just not for everyone, and if someone would rather use their money to raise a nice hardy leo that should be fine.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

Hi meretseger.

Again, some people are misunderstanding my post.

Let me put it this way.

Its not that im ordering people to get 'endangered' species, im saying....well, say im a huge breeder of designer leos and some rare thousand dollar morphs. Instead of continuing to create new morphs, and colors, "I" would try a different, less common species (this is intended for me, im not telling you guys to do anything), such as Naultinus, Cat geckos (that you have...i salute you), Atelopus (frogs), maybe Rhacophorus, etc, etc,....theres alot i want, and alot that arent common. I know that WC specimens are harder to breed, but im not as unexperienced as you may think.

Again, All these are just my opinions.

M.N

but when dealing with the rarer,endangered animals not only do you have to worry about wc parasidic riden animals but you have to worry about CITES laws,regulation,permitting blah blah blah and alot of the endangered animals can not be exported. it's alot!!!!! i undertsnd where you are coing from. i am hoping to get 3 different subspecies of normal wc leogeckos with locality information on them and i am very excited about this. and i plan on keeping them pure and normal.i breed for the colors because i like them but some of my most prized geckos are ugly in other peoples minds but ya know what?? i really dont care. yes snakes are being bred to create morphs and what not too i personally keep locality boa constrictor subspecies. i keep hog island boas,tarahumara locality bci,, argentine boas,common bci,surinam bcc, bolivian amarali and a few other rare boa localities. i do not breed them for morphs i breed normals of their particular region.... yes i try and get the nicest specimens possible but all are normals and i love this. but you have to realize not everyone is like this,leos appeal to people because (most poeple) their gentleness and ease,their curiosity and personalitiees and the fact that they come in colors comes second to that. i believe some people do sell them and breed them only for profit but if they havent learned by now they will, that the leo market sucks and 99 percent of folks out there wont make a dime and be happy to break even but alot of us considering this keep doing it.... because we love our geckos and we love what we do money or no money. you have some good thoughts but you have to see it from other perspectives and take in consideration each and every person is different.
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-robin struck (new married name)
Geckoheads And Geeks

NP
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Got hips like Cinderella / Must be having a good shame / Talking sweet about nothing / Cookie I think you're Tame

Isn't it better if someone cares for an animal that they know how to take care of well and have experience with than just trying to save the world by buying rare specimens (which, in most cases, you can't get without permits, anyway) that are harder to take care of and few people have the knowledge or experience to do so?
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Got hips like Cinderella / Must be having a good shame / Talking sweet about nothing / Cookie I think you're Tame

....*sigh*...

yes, it is better if someone cares for an animal they know how to...did i say it isnt?

Once again, im not asking anyone to save anything. All im saying is there are other geckos out there, and if ******I****** (Read Carefully. *I*) were a top breeder of rare morphs, and had a choice (again, *I*) i wouldnt have continued to create new morphs, but preserve our natural ones. This is my opinion, and what you choose is yours.

M.N

just digging yourself deeper.... I've been down in this hole too, feels like you're being attacked... you're not though. I've found that the best thing to so is just STOP posting on this thread, and move on..... no more rebuttles, no more replies. Just let it go. Barely anybody will see this how you see it, so just let it go... sory, but this forum sucks, that's why I only come on here when I have a BIG question....
Kev
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

I understand that you mean that you would do that in that situation, but you did start off by saying that some breeders are destroying the reptile community. That is a harsh statement, and it's likely to be taken in a harsh way.

All I'm trying to do is express my own opinion and bring up some points that I think you missed when forming your convictions, and I think some other replies were made with the same intent. I'm not angry about your feelings, but I do think that taking in and breeding endangered animals is wrong for most people, because most people don't know enough about them and those animals should NOT be removed from the wild, except for breeding programs from people with extensive experience!
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Got hips like Cinderella / Must be having a good shame / Talking sweet about nothing / Cookie I think you're Tame

I am one of those who take really good care of their leopards! So feel free to send me one as soon as the ones pictured start laying and hatching out!

With perhaps the exception of Tremper albinos, morphs still only make up a very small fraction of the leopard geckos that are available on the market. Off the forum, if you run into a person who keeps a leopard gecko, that leopard gecko is most likely going to be a normal. I keep a gorgeous high-yellow, which, woohoo, is so common online, it gets clumped together under the same category as normals. My high-yellow isn't going to impress people on this forum. But even other herpers aren't used to seeing colors like her (the lavender and the yellow).

So basically, this forum isn't the best representation of the type of people involved with herps. Just because a few people come onto this forum bragging about their morphs or about how much they want a particular morph doesn't mean everybody in the reptile community is doing that, too. This forum is only a miniscule sample of who's really into herps. You can still run into breeders at shows who don't do any kind of advertising on the Internet but do travel to shows every month.

Besides, if it's a question about ethics in treating animals, well, I'm sure you could ask some of the breeders here how many rescued animals they're keeping under their wing. I know a lot of them have taken in leos with deformities, injuries, and illnesses.

In my opinion, leopard geckos are more beneficial to the reptile community than some people perceive. They invite people into the reptile community. How many of us here started with a leopard gecko before really getting into herps? How many of us got into herps because of leopard geckos? You said yourself that leos make a great beginner reptile.

I also think that if you can't tell a blizzard apart from a patternless, your eyes probably aren't trained enough to discern that $1000+ leo from the $50 one.

I don't mean any of this in an offensive manner. I think your concern is well-founded, but I just don't follow your reasoning. Some of us here, and most newbies that I know, are completely oblivious to leo morph trends. If not for the scarcity of certain morphs, then for a simple lack of interest. I, personally, don't find super hypo tang carrot tail baldies that attractive. My aforementioned high-yellow is still the most beautiful leo I've ever seen. In fact, I'll post a picture of her.

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chickabowwow

3.2 leopard geckos (Rosie, Locke, Lisa, Caesar, Tommy)
and 3 eggs a' cookin'

You wait and see!

Thank you... I've been involved in Herps for the last 15 years. I know that the "designer" Leos are great and all, but one of the reasons that they seem so great is because they have such a high price tag. Yes, now I know that that's not the ONLY reason, but it is a start. Everyone wants the best, and in most cases, that's the most expensive. But seriously, different people have different opinions about what's beautiful and what's not. I'll admit that I've seen some GORGEOUS leos for upwards of $500, but I would never pay that, just to be able to show it off. I'd rather spend $50 on a leo that will (in my personal opinion) look just as beautiful (in it's own way) and love you just the same, or even better (cranky old blizzards). I have one normal, 2 tangerines, and one tangerine albino. I love normals, I like patterns, I like SPOTS... that IS why they were called LEOPARD geckos in the first place, isn't it? Anyhow, to each his own, and for thse of you that want to spend ridiculous amounts of money on Geckos, so be it. Maybe I don't have the eye for Leos yet, but the majority of the Leopard Geckos I see on some sites selling for a few hundred, seem to only be selling for that much because the REST of the Leos are priced even higher. You can shop around and find leos that look just as nice, for a few hundred less elsewhere. A lot of times it only SEEMS like a good deal on a leo because they mark the others up so high. I love Leopard Geckos, as well as most other herps, but I'd rather take a nice vacation somewhere, than spend a grand on a lizard. But that's just ME, and my opinion, I'm sure there will be ones that differ, but this is just the POV of someone who raises leos as a hobby, not as a way of life, or business....

Kev
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

If you like Normals that's fine, I enjoy looking at pics of them and wish you'd included pics of your Leos in your post. Before you breed your normals I would look around and be sure you are going to be able to find homes for the babies. How do you plan to sell them? Do you have enough friends to take them? I think you would have trouble trying to sell them online, not sure about putting out an add in a paper? Just some food for thought. I have some really nice High Yellows but am probably not going to breed them because there is no real market for them right now. Our local pet store bred lots of Leos this year. The normals are still sitting there with no homes. Even some of the 'fancy' morphs haven't been adopted. There are so many Leos out there, I see no reason for anyone to breed just to breed. My push to you in response to your post would be, if you like Normals, instead of breeding them, you could do a "rescue" for Leos and give a good home to the Normals out there that don't have homes. Then if you find someone who wants a Normal, you could offer them one from your rescue collection. You would feel good about what you were doing, you could still provide Normals to people who wanted them, you aren't going to make money selling Normals so you won't really lose any by getting them through rescuing rather than breeding. Just something to think about. The breeders breed Leos to meet the demands of the public. People want fancy morphs, so breeders breed them. I took no offense to your post, and hope in return you don't take offense to mine. I'm honestly just tossing out ideas for you to think about. A friend of mine only adopts unwanted, usually disabled or sick, Leos. She is very rewarded by this hobby. Good luck and post some pics of you Leos if you can.

"Trouble"

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www.LynsLair.com
3.7 Leopard Geckos
(Simba, Firenze, Scooter, Mystique, Nala, Melina, Buttercup, Fluffy, Sunshine, Jellybean)
1.0 Carpet Python
(Bear)
5.1 Ferrets
(Wolf, Shadow, Roland, Verdell, Boo, Sullivan)
0.1 Cat
(Mia)

You cant get mad at someone for their personal opinon. But we can get mad at someone that is looking down on people for doing something that they love.
Heck I have a a few super tangs, a albino, a normal, a hypo golden and so forth.
Just because some people like the more expensive ones doesnt mean that they are bad people. I know a lot of breeders where their favorite leos are the normals. If people love breeding and treat their leos great and get paid for doing it. The hell good for them. Maybe one of these years I can get going to and make a few bucks on the side. It becomes different though when leos are breed and kept in lizard farms.
Thats my opinon. But we cant look down on people for doing things they love. If you want to save endangerd animals.... thats great too many animals need help. But use your time for that and not to down look people for taking care of the animals they have.
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2 male leos: Winky HY & Lenny TangCT & 6 Female Leos: Sunshine Super tang,Starburst, & Daisy Super tang carrot tail, Serenity Tremper HY Jungle Albino, Skittle Hypo-Golden, and Banana Patternless.

Jag, and Lyn. I suggest you reread my post. My post was not intended for me to brag about not liking other morphs. Read the last paragraph. I just asked what you all think about $2000 leos, and where this is all going (some people actually did answer my question. I thank you). I believe (again, my opinion) its not right. How many times did i say im getting mad, or 'looking down' on someone because they like a specific morph...i actually said the opposite.

Im not breeding anything for money, and dont intentend on doing it. My post sounded as if i was actually going to 'breed the normals', but it should have been 'NOT breed other morphs. Sorry for the confusion...
This is just my decision and opinion. And what you chose is your decision and opinion. I respect that. Im not mad at anyone. Im not trying to bring you down because you breed other morphs. I asked for (read above). Isnt this a place of discussion?

But, please, dont try to change the subject and try to put others down (" 14 year old who thinks they know it all", "sorry your opinion doesn't hold much water to me", etc.) because you dont feel the same way they do. i guess i just began that post because i wanted other opinions on these thousand dollar morphs, where they are going, and whats next for the leo population....i guess i didnt get what i was looking for (except Kelli, Monte, and others). Im sorry i posted that thread, and am sorry that it seemed as if im putting some people down.

...i guess some opinions are best left untold...

Sorry again to some people........i guess...

M.N

Looking back, I can't believe that I was so sucked into this forum for so long.... The majority of posters on here are VERY juvenille (not in reference to any individual poster). Most of you just need to get over yourselves, Grow up a little, put your pride aside, and accept other people's opinions. different people have different views, it's ALWAYS going to be that way. a world where everyone has the same view points is called a Utopia. And we're FAR FAR FAR from achieving that in this forum, let alone the world.
Nasr 36 made some good points. The pricing of leopard geckos are getting a little out of hand, and just seem to keep going up every breeding season. It's starting to get out of hand. I never heard anyone insult anyone's taste in morphs. I don't know where that came from. My guess is the game of "telephone". You read the origional thread, and move on to the next and the next... By the time you get down to the last message, you've heard everone's views, and the origional message is already clouded. Y'all end up responding to things taht wereen't ven MENTIONED in the first place.
Live and let live... opinions happen, and most of the time they're different from yours. feel free to discuss eachothers views, but do not try to change someone's opinion. It's just rude. And from the looks of it, there are a LOT of rude people on this board that do not know how to express their opinion.

This isn't an opinion, THIS is a FACT.

Kev
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly