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Male Black Gap Ghost I produced last year from the Dan Johnson bloodline. Also pictured is a female Patternless that is het for Ghost. I like the Black Gap locality for all the variation from Blair's to alterna to light and dark phases, ect.

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www.hcu-tx.org/

>>Male Black Gap Ghost I produced last year from the Dan Johnson bloodline. Also pictured is a female Patternless that is het for Ghost. I like the Black Gap locality for all the variation from Blair's to alterna to light and dark phases, ect.

Nice Aaron....
I have a pair I think you produced that are het hypo and possible het anery......They've been slow growers and will not go until 2015 probably.....I can't wait to see what they will produce.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks! Yes graybands can be slow to raise. Some of mine didn't produce until the age of 5 but I think other people's have done it at 18 months so I guess it varies.

Here's an anery that's het hypo. You can barely tell he's anery but he is. I can't wait to get some true Blair's phases out of this project, so far everything visual has been alterna or intermediate phase.

I'd like to see pics of your het hypo pos het anery's, I think I did produce them.

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www.hcu-tx.org/

>>Thanks! Yes graybands can be slow to raise. Some of mine didn't produce until the age of 5 but I think other people's have done it at 18 months so I guess it varies.
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>>Here's an anery that's het hypo. You can barely tell he's anery but he is. I can't wait to get some true Blair's phases out of this project, so far everything visual has been alterna or intermediate phase.
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>>I'd like to see pics of your het hypo pos het anery's, I think I did produce them.

I will post them up tonight......but you can see them on my website.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Those are sweet! I really like granite looking one.
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"We are challenging the soft bigotry of low expectations" George W.

Thanks! The granite looking ones are still not understood. They originally come from a wild caught and were marketed as simply Patternless with no explaination. However looking at breeding records it shows that when a Patternless is bred to a normal about 50% of the offspring will be Patternless.

All definite Patternless produced so far, that I know of, have been alterna phase, which equals a fully speckled animal. There have been a few Blair's that look like they might be expressing the trait because they have aberrant bands and lots of speckling. My thoughts are that there will probably be a Super form when you breed Patternless to Patternless but I don't know of anybody that has done such a pairing.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

>>Thanks! The granite looking ones are still not understood. They originally come from a wild caught and were marketed as simply Patternless with no explaination. However looking at breeding records it shows that when a Patternless is bred to a normal about 50% of the offspring will be Patternless.
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>>All definite Patternless produced so far, that I know of, have been alterna phase, which equals a fully speckled animal. There have been a few Blair's that look like they might be expressing the trait because they have aberrant bands and lots of speckling. My thoughts are that there will probably be a Super form when you breed Patternless to Patternless but I don't know of anybody that has done such a pairing.
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>>www.hcu-tx.org/

I always thought some of the "Coffey" line alterna were speckled blairs.......BTW I don't like the term granite. That is for mex mex.....lol Dan Johnson used the term patternless first....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>I always thought some of the "Coffey" line alterna were speckled blairs.......BTW I don't like the term granite. That is for mex mex.....lol Dan Johnson used the term patternless first....lol
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And the Coffey line ones are said to be recessive.....Maybe the patternless ones are too. Didn't you say that you recognized it on DJ's website?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

One more thing.....
I do remember that the patternless alterna gene was first seen in females then after some more breeding the males started showing it.

With the "Ultra" Granite Mex Mex gene we are seeing the same thing. Females are expressing it better and only a few males have.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

That's interesting, I had not heard that about females. I have a Patternless male but I don't know what gen it is without going through Dan's records. I know it's not F1, it's either F2 or greater but it is from a Patternless x Normal pairing.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I'm not sure what you mean by recessive, is that different from simple recessive?

The Patternless are definately not simple recessive because you can see it in the first generation.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

>>I'm not sure what you mean by recessive, is that different from simple recessive?
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>>The Patternless are definately not simple recessive because you can see it in the first generation.
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>>www.hcu-tx.org/

I meant Simple Recessive.....In the Mendelian sense.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yes John I too think that this trait is the same as the Coffee line alterna but I didn't want to say it first. I have one Blair's, that Colin Smith produced out of Dan Johnson snakes, which I think is showing the Patternless trait. It's a 2011 female and it's not het for hypo or anery so it will be several years to prove out.

I also agree they should be called Patternless as Dan originally coined them and not be called Granite.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

>>Yes John I too think that this trait is the same as the Coffee line alterna but I didn't want to say it first. I have one Blair's, that Colin Smith produced out of Dan Johnson snakes, which I think is showing the Patternless trait. It's a 2011 female and it's not het for hypo or anery so it will be several years to prove out.
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>>I also agree they should be called Patternless as Dan originally coined them and not be called Granite.

Some of Tim's River Roads are showing the same trait.....I will have to dig up some pics of them, upload them to photobucket and post them......FB is so much easier....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Here's some River Roads from VR that Joe Castronova has....Similar but different....lol

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I'm not so sure if that's the same trait because I don't know what Tim's adults were. It could be because it looks the same but it is not necessarily. I think you can achieve that look with normal speckled alterna, it just takes more generations of selective breeding and the ratios are different.

With normal speckled alterna you start with any grayband that has speckling and select the most speckled pair of offspring for you next gen and keep going. With Patternless you get fully speckled in the first gen even when only one of the breeders is Patternless.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

>>I'm not so sure if that's the same trait because I don't know what Tim's adults were. It could be because it looks the same but it is not necessarily. I think you can achieve that look with normal speckled alterna, it just takes more generations of selective breeding and the ratios are different.
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>>With normal speckled alterna you start with any grayband that has speckling and select the most speckled pair of offspring for you next gen and keep going. With Patternless you get fully speckled in the first gen even when only one of the breeders is Patternless.
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>>www.hcu-tx.org/

Very interesting......and you mentioned a patternless X normal produced a patternless......Is it acting somewhat codominant? Or is it just the result of line breeding too?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

It apprears to be acting co-dom. The big question is whether there's a super form. I think there will be but I won't know for sure until I can do a Patternless X Patternless pairing, probably in 2015.

I've recently heard of Patternless that are basicly solid gray with no speckling. I don't know who produced them but that does sound like those might be the super form acting on an alterna phase animal. I tend to think the super form would look different when acting on a Blair's phase animal.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

So, that ghost is anery and hypo?
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>>So, that ghost is anery and hypo?
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Yes...double homozygous.
That is why I did not like the term "ghost" for the Palomar California kings. They are singel homozygous. But it's too late now to think about changing it....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yep, it would be nice if ghost always meant the same thing.
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When was the term "ghost" first used to describe a hypo anery?

I remember hearing of "ghost" cal kings for sure in the 90's, might have even been early 90's.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I have no idea. Sounds like the ghost Cal king possibly could have been first.
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Yes what John said is correct, it's a combo of two simple recessive traits, hypo and anery. The form of hypo is the one in which the black parts turn a sort of carmel/grayish color and they have ruby eyes. There is quite a bit of variation because alterna naturally have a dark and a light phase. The animal I pictured is a dark phase.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

>>Yes what John said is correct, it's a combo of two simple recessive traits, hypo and anery. The form of hypo is the one in which the black parts turn a sort of carmel/grayish color and they have ruby eyes. There is quite a bit of variation because alterna naturally have a dark and a light phase. The animal I pictured is a dark phase.
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>>www.hcu-tx.org/

I have always wanted to creat a hypo or ghost form of a dark, almost black and orange Xmas mountain or Black Gap.....

I wonder if they would change from just having the carmel/grayish around the saddles to the entire ground color being carmel/grayish as it ages and "darkens" to "black" like they do......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I've wondered that too John. I also want to see a really dark phase anery Blair's with wide white saddles and narrow white borders on the outside of the black borders.

...and a super light hypo Blair's with wide orange saddles and pinstripe carmel colored borders.

...and just about every other phase as well, lol.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

OK, very cool looking animals. I bet the ruby eyes on the hypo's and ghosts look nice.
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Thanks Ross!
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www.hcu-tx.org/