Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Don't flame me too...

I think that breeding herps Are at the level that they are now when one species is dangeruosly close to extiction we can save it.

But I'm the type of person who loves watching the animal and seeing the animal. I try my very best to simulate a wild habitat. If my leos happen to breed, which they do, I am very happy. Now, sinse they are so many types of morphs, people brag about the leos as they are toys. They put them in big tupperware containers. They are almost like cows, or domestic animals. Their only point in their life is to breed as much as they can. In these containers, people use old recycables as hides. These leos only sleep breed and eat.
Then their offspring is sold to other people. Some people trade them like cards. They don't do it for the animal, they do it for money. Atleast my animals, and many other people actually care and love these animals. They make amazing enclosures in them. They don't put them on these huge racks.

Now people are being leos just so they can breed them. They sell them to other people just so they can breed them too. This as an on going cycle until it eventually die out, and a new herp fad will come along.

This is coming from a mouth of a 14 year old boy.

I breed leo's but its not for the money(its a nice thing)but to have the joy and adventure of raising hatchlings and hatching eggs. This is coming from a 13 year old boy.

You say that leopard gecko breeders are only in it for the money? That might be true for some but most are in it for the love of the animals. I have been working with leopard geckos for almost 10 years now, do you have any idea why? Well i will tell you, it is because I LOVE THEM. There is much more to herpetoculture than producing offspring and selling them, such as being active in your local herp society, getting out in the field and observing herps in their natural environment, and educating others about reptiles. I do all of these things because herps are a huge part of my life! Not so I can sell lots of reptiles and get rich! If I cared about being rich and having lots of money I certainly would not be breeding leopard geckos!

I will always keep and breed leos. I do it for the same reasons most of us do, because I am fascinated by them and I love them. And, yes, I am proud of my animals and I do enjoy posting pictures of my geckos on this forum. I am not bragging, I am SHARING with others, I want them to enjoy the beauty of my animals. And I also love seeing other people's pictures of their animals also. Sorry if my pictures offend you but I am certain that most of the regular posters on this forum enjoy them.

By the way, I do keep my leos in rack systems, they do great! You say it isn't "natural" for them to live in rubbermaid tubs but do you think it is "natural" for them to live in an aquarium? Just food for thought...
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Must be the maternal instinct in you, I'm afraid I didn't quite phrase my post in such a gentle, but firm manner. I never have had very much patience with kids......
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Sam
Gecko Den
Email Me

I never said most, i meant many, not all, people do it for the money. Expecialy some pet store owners i know.

the majority of pet stores don't sell high end reptiles. They sell the common herps, including "normal" leos.
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

we would feed most of our leos to other animals...because this happens in the wild all the time. It's not "natural" for us humans to live in houses and get all the advances of medical science and nutrition either, but now people live to the average age of around 80 instead of 20 or 25. Maybe we should all turn our kids out into the desert or forest so they can live a more "natural" life? Except that would be sonsidered child abuse. The "State of Nature" is not a pretty sight, most wild-caught leos are skinny, and heavily parasitized. In captivity, we consider animals in this state (left untreated) to be abused.

What is important is not replicating "natural" conditions, but providing conditions that make our leos healthy, including good heating, a safe substrate, optimal diet, comfortable hides, and attention and medical care when needed.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

I completely agree. Housing a leo in a rubbermaid container with recycled hides like PVC pipe and gladware containers, etc. doesn't do anything bad to the health of the animal. as long as all the proper requirements are met, that leo will be happy as can be. And it not like pet store polyresin caves and plastic water dishes that look like rocks is natural. Captive housing of animals is not natural, so whats the difference if you have a "natural" looking setup as opposed to one using rubbermaid containers? The way I see it, as long as the leo is happy and healthy, it shouldnt matter. =)
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~Melissa~
1.2 Leopard geckos
1.0 Bearded dragon
1.0 Hog Island Boa
0.0.1 crested gecko
1.0 Ferret
0.1 Chinchilla
1.0 Chinese Praying Mantis

I would like to point out that most WC leos are not skinny and "full" of parasites. The reason WC leos come in skinny and full of parasites is due to inaccurate pre-exportation methods that allow parasites to flourish and emaciation to run rampant.

>>The "State of Nature" is not a pretty sight, most wild-caught leos are skinny, and heavily parasitized. In captivity, we consider animals in this state (left untreated) to be abused.
>>
>>What is important is not replicating "natural" conditions, but providing conditions that make our leos healthy, including good heating, a safe substrate, optimal diet, comfortable hides, and attention and medical care when needed.
>>-----
>>Sarah Stettler aka Starling
>>Sarah@stargecko.com
>>StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
>>Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos
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Justyn
Intense Herpetoculture

Well, no one would deny you your right to your opinion. Let me just say this... I am new to the breeding of leos, it fascinates me. Also you say that these people ask for a lot of money for their geckos..let me ask you this do you really think the geckos care? The reputable breeders I have talked with and learned from take the utmost care of their animals. If you research the posts on here almost all have adopted abused animals. I know their are breeders that abuse their animals and breed them within an inch of their life, but their are people that put babies in trash cans too. Should we stop reproducing too? We have laws against abusing animals just like we do for humans. Also if you research a breeder before you buy, it doesn't take long to find the ones that are just in it for the money. These people will not get my business. I have been watching this forum for many months now, even when I was in Afghanistan and Iraq(when I could) These morphs are not bred for money, but rather the adventure of seeing how far you can take the species. It takes years to isolate and breed a trait to the extent you see today, it doesn't happen overnight. This as you can well imagine costs money,time,and patience. Are some overpriced? Yes, I would agree with you there, but they are not making you buy them either. If I think a car costs too much I find it cheaper or I don't buy it. This is the greatest virtue of freedom and the capitalist system.

Breeders such as Rob Jenkins, Shayna Whitehouse, Marcia McGuiness, and KelliH love all aspects of the craft and love their animals. Marcia sent me two beautiful geckos and worried about them so much, when UPS told her no one was home at the scheduled delivery time, she bombarded my email with messages, worried about her babies safty. Of course my wife was home just changing a stinky diaper.

As I said you are entitled to your opinion, and you and your fellow postee's on here definitely are. I would think, however you need to do a little more research before you decide to tell people what they are doing is wrong. If we applied your reasoning to all creatures including humans, we would basically vanish from this earth. Remember you can find a dark side in everything. If you could see the joy these animals, that have been lovingly bred by these breeders,light up the faces of my three young boys you would be able to see the light and good side of this venture.

Ok I'm off my soapbox

Tim
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LEOs: 3.7.0
1.1 High Yellows (Barney and Betty);1.1 Hypo Tangerines(Bam-bam and Pebbles); 1.1 Rescued Normals (Shleprock) 0.4Tremper Albinos (No names yet), Lookin for a good male breeder
BEARDIES 1.0.0
Snow and Yellow (Fred)

Oh yeah and don't flame me just a 35 yr old man's opinion
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LEOs: 3.7.0
1.1 High Yellows (Barney and Betty);1.1 Hypo Tangerines(Bam-bam and Pebbles); 1.1 Rescued Normals (Shleprock) 0.4Tremper Albinos (No names yet), Lookin for a good male breeder
BEARDIES 1.0.0
Snow and Yellow (Fred)

Kelli you really did put it in context. You are always good at writing these sort of responses, and I thank you for that. I totally agree with Kelli, the majority of these people are in this hobby for the fun of it. If you can make a living doing it, go for it!!! If you can make some extra cash, go for it!!! Just have the animals bests interests in hand and enjoy yourself. I enjoy animals, and even plants for that matter. I love finding out every possible thing I can about them, both captive husbandry and natural history. I thrive on researching both rare and common animals. I have some of the worlds rarest and most endangered animals within my own house. Marcy and I are some of the only people in the world to breed these rare animals in captivity, animals that will likely become extinct within 5-10 years. I treat these animals the same as I do my leopard geckos, all of them are very important to me! I keep all of these animals because I enjoy them, and if/whenever I make some money off them, do you want to know what it what it goes too??? I dare you to guess! It goes to the upkeep of those endangered animals I was talking about, such as this Eurycea sp. "Perdernales".

Eurycea naufragia

and even bats (I rehab bats)!!!

So I dare you to try to say I am in this for the money.
Thanks
Justyn

>>Don't flame me too...
>>
>>I think that breeding herps Are at the level that they are now when one species is dangeruosly close to extiction we can save it.
>>
>>But I'm the type of person who loves watching the animal and seeing the animal. I try my very best to simulate a wild habitat. If my leos happen to breed, which they do, I am very happy. Now, sinse they are so many types of morphs, people brag about the leos as they are toys. They put them in big tupperware containers. They are almost like cows, or domestic animals. Their only point in their life is to breed as much as they can. In these containers, people use old recycables as hides. These leos only sleep breed and eat.
>> Then their offspring is sold to other people. Some people trade them like cards. They don't do it for the animal, they do it for money. Atleast my animals, and many other people actually care and love these animals. They make amazing enclosures in them. They don't put them on these huge racks.
>>
>> Now people are being leos just so they can breed them. They sell them to other people just so they can breed them too. This as an on going cycle until it eventually die out, and a new herp fad will come along.
>>
>> This is coming from a mouth of a 14 year old boy.
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Justyn
Intense Herpetoculture

Wow, I wish I could rehab some bats... I live in an apartment though. Bats have to be my favorite mammals.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

You can still rehab bats, but it takes a lot of time and sometimes a lot of money!!! If you are truly interested try to find and contact some rehabbers in your area.
Thanks
Justyn

>>Wow, I wish I could rehab some bats... I live in an apartment though. Bats have to be my favorite mammals.
>>-----
>>Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
>>Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?
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Justyn
Intense Herpetoculture

...and just so some people dont think im taking sides with us 'young' people...

sorry alebron.

I agree with kelli. I believe its next to impossible to create or copy the 'exact' habitat they encounter in the wild. This goes for all species, not just leos.

M.N

Keeping leos on paper towels or repticarpet with a plastic tub as a hide is not a natural environment either, whether kept in a plastic bin or a glass aquarium. Just because something is stacked in plastic bins doesn't mean their set-ups are very different from the majority of set-ups in aquariums.

I find it to be a very strong assumption on anyone's part who thinks that because something is kept in those bins that they are not cared for or given the proper environment. True, those environments are bound to be less stiumlating than some others (especially naturalistic ones), but that is only if there is ample space and plenty of things for them to climb on, hide under, experiment with, etc. provided. Most people don't do that, and most people keep leos in 10-gallons anyway. No one is picking on those people!

These big-time breeders know what they're doing and know what they can compromise (like sand and sticks) in an environment without hurting the animal or anything. Yes, the animal is used for breeding, but I'm going to guess that these people still see them as pets and treat them that way!
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Got hips like Cinderella / Must be having a good shame / Talking sweet about nothing / Cookie I think you're Tame

Thank you for the compliments, I try very hard to leave a positive impact in everything I do. As far as naturalistic habitats, while they can be beneficial, unless they are done correctly you may be putting your animals’ health at risks. A simplistic cage setup minimizes these risks and at the same time can still promote physical and psychological well being.
Thanks
Justyn

>>...and just so some people dont think im taking sides with us 'young' people...
>>
>>sorry alebron.
>>
>>I agree with kelli. I believe its next to impossible to create or copy the 'exact' habitat they encounter in the wild. This goes for all species, not just leos.
>>
>>
>>M.N
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Justyn
Intense Herpetoculture

A naturalistic set-up also includes a natural level of risk. You put enough sticks and things into a tank and you have a chance of something falling on your gecko, or something of that nature. So, both naturalistic and unnaturalistic set-ups have advantages.
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Got hips like Cinderella / Must be having a good shame / Talking sweet about nothing / Cookie I think you're Tame

if i was into keeping reptiles only for the money, i wouldnt have them because to date i have not made one red cent of profit. Shoot i hope one of these days maybe i can break even , however i doubt it. I have spent thousands of dollars in food ,caging and all that is needed to give them the best life possible. I am not rich by any means i work a very physically demanding full time job at an hourly rate, and this is what i enjoy doing before work and when i get home. shoot with the money i have spent with my animals i could have had a brand new home ,several new cars and the time and money to go on long vsacations . However i chose differently and why????? I do it because i love them. i do it because they fascinate me. this is my hobby, i take great pride in my animals and the effort in which i put into them and i would refuse any deal if i didnt feel like the animal wouldnt be getting the best of care,regardless of money involved.

ya there are some large breeders out there who yes are in it for money only but the day that happenes to me is the day i will get out of herps. i see new peoples coming on here with talks of projects and what sells the best and blah blah blah and those are the ones who will be truely disapointed..... 99 percent of reptile people make little no no money at all and most are happy if they break even.
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-robin struck (new married name)
Geckoheads And Geeks

Thinking about how much money I have put into my leos. THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN BREED. I have 6 females and 2 males. The cheapiest being $25 and the most being $240. Then you think about all the food from crix, mealies, silks, butters, pinkies, supers and so forth plus the food for all that food. It gets going but yet you find a way to manage and take damn good care of your leos. Hell I dont have a good job hell I just quite but thats what a savings account is for and my old man is waiting for the CHP DAMN BUDGET CUTS. And we are getting married in march. So if we didnt care for our leos and so forth we would have a lot more money for us and not our leos.
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2 male leos: Winky HY & Lenny TangCT & 6 Female Leos: Sunshine Super tang,Starburst, & Daisy Super tang carrot tail, Serenity Tremper HY Jungle Albino, Skittle Hypo-Golden, and Banana Patternless.

"This is coming from a mouth of a 14 year old boy."

Yes, it is the undereducated opinion of a 14 year old who thinks they know it all but knows very little, and it shows.
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

But do I sound young too sometimes? I am 20... almost 21
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2 male leos: Winky HY & Lenny TangCT & 6 Female Leos: Sunshine Super tang,Starburst, & Daisy Super tang carrot tail, Serenity Tremper HY Jungle Albino, Skittle Hypo-Golden, and Banana Patternless.

I was an ignorant little cuss at times
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4.5 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Marbled Gecko
1.1 Red Eared Sliders
0.2 Siamese Mice