Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys I was told this might be the place to get some answers about Brooks Kings. I wanted to know where di the different lines of Anery/Axanthic Brooks originate? Were they from WC parents? I know BHB has a line but I can't find much info on any of them. Any help is appreciated, thanks.

The anerys originated from several sources at around the same time. One of them was BHB but i never asked him where he got his from. Anery appears to be a more common trait in w/c Florida kings.

The two places the axanthics originated from are from Lloyd Lemke New England line. The New England line consisted of group of breeders that collected in Florida but resided in the upper new England part of the United states. referred to as the "New England axanthics".

Picture is of an Anery BHB line and a Axanthic from the New England line:

I meant to post the axanthics have 2 lines.-The Lemke line and New England line.

Hope that helps.

anerys are a seperate trait an are not allelic with the axanthic.

So both the NE line, and the Lemke line are from WC Brooks then? Very curious to know where BHB line originate from?

Your info is wrong on the New England Weishaupl. Steve Fuller received several hatchlings from theShed in Miami. These likely came from wc Brooksi in Dade co. This is before Brooksi were muddied with all the crap that's there now so it was a legit mutation. Anyway one was odd and ended up being an Axanthic. Steve is from Connecticut hence New England line.

well then Bob Fengya lied to me when I got them from him circa 1994-95.

I also recall Bob also writing in an artcile something like the original stock was collected by him and Steve at the old canal stock area.

But yes I know they originated from a group of northeastrn guys ( a group of guys living in the NE states). Funny how stories change with partners in a project after a few decades. So I don't doubt your story Keith.

I remember how Doug beard said he founded the original unkown het hypos back in south Florida and sold them to me for $700. each. I bred theose and the Love stock to each other and I acquired more Love stock as well.

Then I get a call from Kevin Maxwell who said he produced the first hypos and when Dog Beard found out about it he was all over it and made a deal with kevin to sell the babies. So Doug had to make up a story to cover his source who was selling them to Doug for $125 each and Doug marked them up to $700....and people were knocking his door down back then and lining up for the Ultimate yellow brooks king.

So I called Doug Beard up on the phone and he gave me the same story on how the hypo trait was quite common in Homestead where he resided and he found his own animals and the stock originated from His w/c lines..

basically the same BS..cont

So I called Doug up again for futher proof and he said to call Craig Trumbower and Lee Abbott who witnessed the first hypos being hatched in 1992 (before the loves did theirs). But the stock all came from the loves.

he also showed me pictures of the original hypos.

Bottom line there were never two seprate lines of hypos. They all came from Love stock.

Makes me wonder what the true story is behind the Lemke and New Englands being they came out before the hypos and who knows what the true story is behind some of the animals.

So sometimes there is money involved to muddy up the history on the animals. Eventually the truth comes out.

half my posts were ersed again because of the letter count. But this time it was not the letter count. It seems if one posts replies to their own post to quickly in a row . It erases the post and it is lost.

So the only way to post a thought here is to write it out on something like WORD and then one can at least save the whole thing when it gets erased..

but not worth my trouble.

SO there you go again. Keith you only got half of what I said. I keep saying I am done here and when this thread is finally over I will most likely never return here on KS..

I went to Baraduci(sp) place in Miami in 1968 or 69 and he had those super lite colored brooks from the canals then. Cheers

I have heard that rumor before. So you saw some hypos back then? WoW!
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

I actually spent the night in his herp room, hahahahahahahaha Those animals were popular way back then. My guess is, they were what popularized Fla kings.

In 1970, I started working at Ross Allens Reptile Inst. Back then people brought in snakes from all over the south. We had to buy everyone. No matter how many or what species. We paid a price per foot on some and a set price on others.

A Fla king was brought in from just south of Silver springs. IT was an adult female and was, hypo like the Brooks and kept its red from when it was a neonate. Lots of red on its belly, and neck and back. I bred that animal to a normal and all the offspring were normal. The institute released them all. hahahahahahahahaha

I started an early interest in Florida king morphs when I moved east from Calif to the southeast in 1992.

Actually before there was any Florida morphs except the axanthic I was searching through breeders tables for the lihtest and nicest normal Florida brooksi. Found some from different breeders and raised them up and bred them to produce some of the sickest nicest ones ever.

This was before the hypo came along and back then nobody cared much about brooksi. I remember helping Lloyd Lemke at his table in Orlando Expo and he had a sub adult axanthic on his table for only $100. It sat there all weekened and he ended up taking it back home. This was about 1992. And he sold the crap out of other common snakes. Heck the axanthic was rare back then, but people just want what is popular and what they KNOW.

Then later when the hypomelanistic hit the market everyone had the "ultimate" yellow brooks king and boy did they sell like hot cakes at $700. each.

SO everybody dumped their projects with light colored beautiful normal. I held onto all of mine until about 1995 and then had to sell because the nice looking normals just did not sell. They just did not do anything for anybody. The new hypos were what everyone wanted.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Keith you wrote:
Your info is wrong on the New England Weishaupl. Steve Fuller received several hatchlings from theShed in Miami. These likely came from wc Brooksi in Dade co. This is before Brooksi were muddied with all the crap that's there now so it was a legit mutation. Anyway one was odd and ended up being an Axanthic. Steve is from Connecticut hence New England line

This is what I wrote which you above rely was to.
"The two places the axanthics originated from are from Lloyd Lemke New England line. The New England line consisted of group of breeders that collected in Florida but resided in the upper new England part of the United states. referred to as the "New England axanthics".

The only thing I missed was to put "and" inbetween Lloyd Lemke AND New England.LOL!

I was the one touting for two decades that these were seperate lines and where they originated. You ought to try and remember this before you accuse me of making a mistake . You can point to my typos and chiken scratch all u want!

You outta know my chicken scratch writing for years and be able to determine what the heck I am saying. You also know I have been telling this same story about about the two lines oever and over. I was with Lloyd back in the day and during the time he had those precious first axanthics..and I also bought the New England line from Bob Fengya (who was one of those New England "guys" . I bred the two lines together to prove to everyone that they were allelic.

I know BHB has a line but I can't find much info on any of them. Any help is appreciated, thanks.

BHB (Brian B.) refers to Anerys as axanthics. He has always done so and is the only person in herpetoculture who does. This confuses a lot of people.

Now that he sells both anerys and axanthics and refers to both as axanthics, confuses things even more for customers.

Define Anery and axanthic please

Isn't Anery lacking red, and Axanthic lacking yellow?

That's backwards. Axanthic is lacking yellow. anerythristic is lacking red.

What I was wondering was, with hognose, axanthic means lacking red and yellow, which I questioned and get yelled at. hahahahahahahahaha.

I was interested as I recently collected a number of axanthic hognose.
This is one of them

As I researched "axanthics" each specie of herps, has their own definition. So its become very interesting.

As Fla. kings have both red and yellow. With red often being lost with age. I wonder how that works.

I think that's what I said? Just in reverse order.

You said it correctly but some people like to make themselves look smarter in their replies....not this time I guess

Keith

I would call that hognose an anery.

from a genetics standpoint an anery is most a red snake and an axanthic is mosty a yellow snake. But in Florida kings we know that some babies are very red and as they grow they turn orange and then yellow. So does a Florida king start life as an anery and turn into a axanthic? No, I don't think so!

I spoke with Dr. Bern Bechtel about this and he said the two terms "can" be used interchangeably.

But from a hobbiest standpoint (in order that we can differentiate between the different recessive traits) these are just names we use. Our job as humans since the beginning of time was to name the animals. So is it perfect science?. No!

In Bechtel book he has a trocolors pictured which he label as "axanthic", why? Because it is mostly a red animal!

So for hobbiest to differentiate we aplly axanthic to a particular ook of the recessive trait. That being a bluish snake is called axanthic. Those with not solid black eyes and lighter cream color (like the hognose) is anery.

The ghost in rosys boas are actually hypo. The California kingsnakes have brown recessive trait that is also incorectly referred to as something else when in fact it is a hypo.

I am also to blame for the name game as a Peanut Butter in brooks should be called hypo type 1 and the older hypo a type II. But to restructure everything would be impossible because once a name is out there it is almost impossible to regulate .........kinda like law in government. Regulation (making new laws)is easy while deregulation is almost always impossible

I don't be live the terms are interchangeable. I have bred the two together and produced double hets.
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~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Look me up on Face Book as well!

Jorge,
I didn't say they were not allelic. I did that breeding 20 years ago.

What we are discussing are the correct terms used for anery and axanthic and what hobbiest use are different.

Tecnically an anery is mostly a red snalkes lacking yellow and red pigment. Since it is mostly a red snakes it lacks mostly red.

Also technically a mostly yellow snake lacking red and yellow pigment is called an axanthic.

But since we are hobbests and have to separate recessive traits that are not allelic we have to call them different. With the case in herpetoculture an axanthic is buish and with black eyes. And Anery is also dark but may ("might"show yellow or off creame tints. What I am saying this is how we call them to make thing easy in the hobby.

Also it was Dr. Bern Bechtel that said the terms anery and axanthic can be used interchangeably. He was referring to the original description of mostly yellow snake or mostly red snake. But since yellow to orange to red still change it does not amount to a hill of beans which we call what (..TEchincally speaking.

So, the terms we use for anery and axanthic are for our purposes (as breeders) to distinguish between the different traits since they are not allelic with each other.

Rainer, What I don't understand is the red snake, yellow snake thing.

With hogs, they carry three pigments, red, yellow, and black.

The snakes are never a predominately yellow or red snake.

With Hogs, Red and yellow must be on the same allele as Hog axanthics so far lack both red and yellow.

The western hogs have axanthics(lacking red and yellow) it was founded by one, or possible two, individual snakes.

I have Mexicans and I have five founder axanthics, of two different types. I have no idea if they will prove out to be pure recessive or not. Time will tell.
Anery means, lacking red. axanthic means, lacking yellow. I did see two animals that were yellow and black and not orange, that would be anery yes?

As I researched this, each type of snake calls it differently. So there you go.

JOrge,
also kingsnake has a new thing in their system where you cannot post more than 2000 letters in a single post.

The probelm is you can still type that many and above but when it comes time to hit the post button it does not show up. So we have to count each letter oetherwise if you go over 2000 letters you will lose the post.

So I had to start over again and then seprate the post into sections as I was copying and pasting in successive posts and repost as a continuation. But then I went a couple letters in a couple pertiennet posts over the 2000 letters and loost those posts again. So what you read is a partial post of mine and not the full explanation/ So anything I wrote could be taken out of context and that is what happened when you read it.

I even asked the mod to delete all this. I can't post, will not post here as long as it is this way and that is why I said- I quit. Not worth the frustration.

Weird, my computer stops writing, a few words after the limit has been reached. If I attempt to post it, it outlines the who post in red, until I delete the excess amount.

So I do the part 1, part 2, part 3 when I have something to say.

I do like it that way.

So I do the part 1, part 2, part 3 when I have something to say.

I do like it that way.

Yeah I tried that until I copied one part with a few letters over the limit and hit post and it erased it because I cut instead of copied the original post. So what I posted was lost. I lost 2 different parts of the post like this .

It is just to hard to mess with trying to remember what I already posted and where I left off. I am frequent on other (non snake related) forums and none work like this.

What is alo strange is there is far less activity on KS forums so the new overload change they made was uneccessary since there is less activity.

The whole thing is just to frustrating after writing it all out and losing it. It is not fun anymore.

Rainer, its kind of odd that kingsnake appears to be purposely committing suicide. Most of the forums are dead as a door nail. Some have a couple of posts a year. Then to keep separating and controlling, odd.

What made these forums popular were the heavy discussions. Were the debates, were the interesting arguments. Those days people came from far and wide to observe and discuss. And yes, lots of crap and lots of good information to consider.

Now this limit. Its teaching me to become brief. Good luck with that. But again, one more thing to drive folks to FB.
FB, is the worse thing that can happen. As its controlled and peer grouped. Which means, they too will bore themselves to death in short time.

Anyway Rainer, adapt and conquer. Keep allowing folks to see there is a range of methods to keep snakes.

There way to much activity on FB to get bored. I pop in here once in a blue moon. However it seems all the cool people have left or been banned.
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~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Look me up on Face Book as well!

To actually learn something, one needs to be exposed to many sides, not just what you call cool, etc.

>>To actually learn something, one needs to be exposed to many sides, not just what you call cool, etc.

You are assuming to know my definition of cool, lol. I don't mean they have leather jackets, and ride motor bikes. There are people from all areas of life, from beginners hungry for knowledge, to seasoned veterans with positive influence on the new generation of this hobby. Take this for what it's worth, but the new booster shot into this hobby is coming from FB. I have seen a revival of sorts and a vibrant curiosity, and desire to learn there that is absent else where. I won't say anymore, as not to seem like I'm trolling, but I'm not the one who mentioned FB first. Cheers!
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~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Look me up on Face Book as well!

Not assuming anything. Just said what I said. You sir, get to put whatever meaning you like, and you do.

I simply made a statement about learning. Thank you so much

Hi, we haven't made any changes to our post length. This appears to be some kind of Internet Explorer issue, which is limiting your posts to 2048 characters when using that browser.

You can read about it here.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/208427

>>also kingsnake has a new thing in their system where you cannot post more than 2000 letters in a single post.

well it never did that here before. I think I have been here since like 2003 or something and I am not the only one that it is happening to.

I will check the link and will want to know if there is a solution.

Thanks
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

If you are using the GET method, you are limited to a maximum of 2,048 characters, minus the number of characters in the actual path.

well, they might as well be speaking Chinese for all I understand them.lol!

All I know is I have been posting here able to type a lot more characters for years. All of a sudden it changed.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

As I mentioned, I like it. I like it because if our reply takes that long, it usually means we are addressing several areas of concern. This way, you can separate those areas into different parts. part 1, part 2 etc. Which makes it far easier to understand.

problem for me is to count 2000 letters.

Also when reply right away it deletes the post even if it is under 2000 character. So you have to wait a minute before hitting the reply button. Because even though the 2nd post may take time, when I hit the post button it erases everyting I just typed.

The safest thing would be to now type out everything on word and then copy and past so things do not get lost because of the system on KS.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

I don't have those problems. I can type away, then it stops. I copy some and it tells me when is enough. its actually very civil. Sorry yours isn't

yeah mine doesn't do that. I wish it would tell me when enough letters are typed.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Mods ,

If you see this please delete my last few posts in this thread. The posts did not come out due to the 2000 letter limit and half was lost and there is no point to my posts in as they turned into a mess.

So please remove

I don't know which posts you want removed. Email the URLs to communityreview@pethobbyist.com.

a lot of people asking questions about said morphs they bought from someone who told them they were het Jellies, lol!
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~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Look me up on Face Book as well!

and converse instead of one person claiming to know it all.

One person? I thought it was Frank Retes and a few others who you keep ranting about over there.

besides we never claimed to know it all. It all stemmed from new ideas and better ways to keep snakes like bonding, keeping the heat on all winter while allowing the snakes to regulate themselves and bromate themselves and alo keeping and feeding Florida kings in groups.

The problem was a few know-it-alls were hurt when they were proven wrong and never got over it. But this is a public forum and opinions ABOUT SNAKES should be shared, expressed and discussed here. What happened is many of these guys don't know how to debate and when they lost they attacked character and made the discussions about people and kept attacking the person instead of keeping it about the snakes (which the topics were about) and that is why KS mods banned them. Now those same people keep trying to discredit me and a few others while tucked away in your FB page.

So the prooooof is right there.>>> That is why certain people like Dmong and others keep attacking us even today.. they just keep talking abou me..lol! Only thing is they are tucked away where they are safe and cannot be challenged from outside sources.

Go at it! Have fun playing with each other guys! I just feel sorry for the unkown people sticking their heads in because most of the info on the Florida king morphs is so wrong it is actually not funny. HOW DO I KNOW? Because they were created by me. I know the hsitory better than ANYONE! But what I see is certain people now trying to discredit that and making things up that are complete lies about the origins of certain animals.

So that is what I mean by the blind leading the blind.

Whoa one thing at a time there buddy.
you said:
that site is full of disgruntled ex customers of yours buddy. I didn't make them mad, you did! Good luck!

See there you go. It is not about the snakes but character assasination..you cannot keep it about the snakes and neither could they.

Name one customer there of mine that is disgruntled except for you? Go ahead and name one (1). Name one!!!! You can't !Because there aren't any. And there are not any of my customers on your site either. Not any that were unhappy with snakes they got from me.

So lets get to the bottom of you case against me.

I always go way above and beyond for my customers and anyone that bought anything from me knows that.

You Jorge, are the only one that mad a public complaint . You never contacted me via email that you were unhappy so how am I supposed to now of fix anything??

And when you complained about the free snakes I added it was 9 months after you received them. And you did this not by contacting me. You posted here on this forum where everybody could see and I never had a chance to speak with you or make anything right.

After the fact you did this I called you on the phone and we had this disscussion years ago over the phone and you seemed to agree with me and apologize. What happened since then? What? We never had any other contact or business? So are you two faced? What is your problem with me?

You bought a small order from me. I added some free snakes. I sent you the snakes and never heard anything from you or any complaints for 9 month and never in private email. You just posted some things here and was to my surprse. that I sent you sick snakes that were mislabeled and missexed. I think they were the free ones if I recall correctly.
cont..

You get that from my ads. I post on my ads that they are het Jelly because it is to complicated for average folks in the ads to understand and would take half a page to explain when the jelly is combined with something like a Ghost that each trait attaches itself to the hypo, the axanthic and the ghost. Basically everything coming out of the egg is a different morph. You guys aren't there yet. I am still light years ahead. You will understand more in about 5-10years and then you will know why it is easier to market them this way.

Most people still have a hard time wrapping their heads around how the whole thing works and especially when combined with other double het mutations. When people contact I explain how it works.

what you guys are still doing and working with are single traits. when it gets to some of my multi traits like Jelly x lavender x hypo and whitesided you would find it difficult to explain as well. Most people I sell to call me over the phone and I go over it with them in multiple phone conversations until they get it.

That is not what i meant at all, and that is not what happened in our deal years ago. I could go over every detail here again, and you won't like it, but what I meant is, there are guys posting on facebook that they have het Jellies, and us blind guys having to correct them, and explain there is no such thing! Oh and as for people selling 700 dollar snakes from your hets, I would love to see some, lol. All the combinations from your 007 line, and 123 line have been made already. You sold plenty of those so that every kid will be making them, and is making them. You really are a special piece of work. you insult people then get all upset when they call you out. People who live in glass houses should NEVER throw rocks.

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~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Look me up on Face Book as well!

I guess you will every comment you don't like deleted? What the heck? even the guy just asking a question is gone!

>>~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com
>>
>>Look me up on Face Book as well!
-----
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Look me up on Face Book as well!

I guess you will every comment you don't like deleted? What the heck? even the guy just asking a question is gone!

Jorge I never asked the mods to remeove any comments except my own posts above which made no sense because of the way this new system works and limited letters per post screwed up my posts more than once. So I asked them to remove MY posts.

I never asked the mods to remove anyone elses. This is another fantasy that you guys all have about me thinking I control the mods and I am special friends with them blah blah blah..

In reality you guys don't realize how innaproriate you act and that is why the posts are removed . But instead of looking in the mirror at yourselves and you guy's WON behavior. You somehow blame me for that also. I see where you guys wrote that on your Facebook. How you bash the Mods and me and say we are cahouts with one another.

HA HA HA HA! Nothing could be further from the truth!

there are guys posting on facebook that they have het Jellies, and us blind guys having to correct them, and explain there is no such thing! Oh and as for people selling 700 dollar snakes from your hets, I would love to see some, lol. All the combinations from your 007 line, and 123 line have been made already. You sold plenty of those so that every kid will be making them, and is making them. You really are a special piece of work. you insult people then get all upset when they call you out. People who live in glass houses should NEVER throw rocks.

Jorge I get a headache from your ignorance.

The guys who post on your Face book did not get Jellies from me. I started the Jellies year and many moons ago. I don't even breed any straight Jellies unless they come from a triple homo and that makes those jellies het for a couple other things.

I also do not work with the 007 line anymore because it was done to death. I do not own one 007 animal any longer. Since moved on from that old project.

What is happened is people read my ad about het Jellies and they may have some from somebody else and they did not explain it to them well. So they go to your site and then ask about this. But they did not buy them direct from me.

Anyway, I already explained I spend hours sometimes with my customers explaining in whole in-and-outs of how this mutation works. Then then have many follow up calls which I take and continue explaining. Nobody I sold to does not understand.

Like I said.. when you get to the level of morphs I am selling you will understand the process more. You guys are just looking to discredit. Yet none of you were my customers.

If any of you were interested in the truth and facts you could just call me (770) 880-five-O 72.

I do things by phone anyway. I am old school and can make sure someone understands better and in less time over the phone than this back and forth nit pocking and nonsense.

If you bought a visual Jelly that was 100% het for Ghost and a normal (what I call het Jelly) het for Ghost. What are all the morphs that will come out of that breeding? List every one!

1.0 Jelly 100% het Ghost
0.1 normal -het Jelly x Ghost

what comes out of this breeding?
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

If you bought a visual Jelly that was 100% het for Ghost and a normal (what I call het Jelly) het for Ghost. What are all the morphs that will come out of that breeding? List every one!

what comes out of this breeding?

Your test is flawed/invalid/has no answer since there is no such thing as being "het for jelly" ... Come on man! You've produced these since '06 and you still don't grasp the basic concept of what is going on with the genetics of the animals you sell? How could you still be calling things "het for jelly" when it has been explain and re-explained to you over and over that it is impossible on all levels (except the imagination) for a snake to be HETEROZYGOUS for BOTH Amel t- AND "peanutbutter"... By your attempted genetic cross of two visually different morphs you happened upon the fact that the two genes are allelic producing a HOMOZYGOUS "jelly" w/o hets (well there was a het but she's only het for t- [still have that female btw] meaning the "PB" didn't transfer it's genes to her... Or you had a mix up with eggs? Or different males within a short space of time... Producing a 2x het with the unknown male and "jellies" when you bred it to the PB"

Test for you Rainer: if you breed a jelly to a ghost what is the outcome of that pairing?

you didn't answer the question.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

It's like asking what 3 B is! There is an unknown which makes it impossible to answer!

Advanced genetic projects or a confused breeder... Seriously dude it's about time you know what you are producing, esp since you choose to come across as a "know it all"

You still didn't answer!

WHY? Just forget what I lable them or call them. If you know what they are and what is in them answer the question.

So what are the results of that pairing?

They will produce something. So if you know what then say what they will produce?
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Seems like you just want me to answer a question you can't seem to answer yourself... What's getting old is you selling things as het for what genes they may not carry and not giving a rats-butthole about who you peddle it to... THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A HET FOR JELLY ... HOW CAN SOMEONE ANSWER YOU IF YOUR QUESTION IS NOT VALID! Ask a valid question and I'll give you a valid answer thus far you remain in imagination land with your theoretical question which is a genetic impossibility.

Oh I know the answer. You just don't want to answer it.

I will repost my rely from above because maybe you didn't read it. I said forget what I call them. If I call them a het jelly then you know what it is right?

So aner what would be produced from this pairing of a Jelly het Ghost to a normal het for jelly x Ghost.

I am trying to make a point because from my ads simplicity for people to understand before their eyes glaze over from a two paragraph long dictation they still not "get it"! When I speak to them over the phone I explain things since they are purchasing multi hets and not single gene Jelly, PB or T negs. They do not know what they will get if they have a male Albesecnt and a female Jelly het for ghost and a normal jelly x ghost.

O answer the question because you know exactly what I am getting at to prove my point. You just don't want to answer so you are cussing me out and talking down when you are just blowing smoke and are afraid to answer the question..

Just forget what I label them or call them. If you know what they are and what is in them answer the question.

They will produce something. So if you know what then say what they will produce?
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

So you wanna know.....
So aner what would be produced from this pairing of a Jelly het Ghost to a normal het for jelly x Ghost.

Well you can't give a definite answer to this because "het jelly" can't be determined until you breed them. It's either het T- or peanut butter. And there's no visual markers to tell the differences. That's the simple point that seems to elude you.

No the point does not elude me dear.

I know exactly what they are and what I am doing. That is why Jorge and Zenny are afraid to answer.

My arguemnet here is not if they are het Jelly or not. My arguemnet is what will they produce. First you or someone has to answer to understand.

Seem they have formed a group agaist me and it is all because of the previous debates here where they got owned. Now they want payback because they never got over it and they started their own litte community and are all very hurt over some of the ways they have been embarrassed on a public forum.

So they will mislead people to extents that are beyond comprehension. Humans beings are ugly people sometimes.

What is sad are the people who jump on the bandwagon just to appease their peers. Otherwise they will be ostracized from the group.

Animals and dogs do the same thing. PACK mentality with no basis to hate. But they will get others that are unsuspecting to join in.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

I remember when I use to read things you would post about others that use to frequent here and I felt bad for you, like everyone was attacking you, the more I got to know you the more I realized it wasn't everyone else it was you... I use to defend you on here, but you have bad "energy" dude and it's poison! Whenever you can't give a logical answer you go off into a rant about people conspiring against you and this has been going on since I 1st started ks.com back around '03-'04... You are always online why not google some concepts and educate yourself on how the genes work rather than this smoke and mirror; waste of time you're had going on for all these years

You do not deserve a response but here it goes..

I do know how they work and you know I do. You are playing games with me and with others saying things that are ridiculous. actually I really think you can't see past your own self blown ego to foresee what my point I was attempting to make in all this.Before I did think you knew where I was leading you but now I think you just don't know.

I was trying to prove my point but you refused to answer. You could have learned something. You lost!
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Whats sad about this. People who have been doing something for a long time, have a view. Whether its right or wrong, or whatever. As time goes on, things change. They always change.

Folks want to hear what those folks have to say, but only if it agrees with what they are thinking. It can never agree with what they are thinking.

Heres where it goes south. Folks make it about right or wrong, or a nice person or not. Personality, etc. When in fact, none of that matters. So you ask, WHAT MATTERS.

What matters is, did Bluerosy or I for that matter, report our experiences accurately. If we do or did, that's about all you can ask for.
Forums such as these, always have a range of people with a range of abilities and a range of reasons why they post. Some offer help, some need help. Which is the base of this forum. Once it leaves that area and enters other reasons, social, psychological or other. Here any one can say anything, or challenge anything without support, backup, knowledge, experience. There are those that attack anyone whom they feel they can bring down, which falsely makes them feel good. It brings them up. With all that in mind. Yes, folks like Bluerosy and I often feel attacked and if you look at it, we are.

The simple point, no matter what we say, all have to right to use it, or not, believe it or not. There are no rules that indicate anyone should believe anything. So I ask, why do folks attack those attempting to help? This is an important question. This is what you need to look at first. If folks are not interested, all they have to do is say thank you and move on.
end pt 1

An example, we, rosy and I, never promote keeping kings together, unless some one asks, then we answer truthfully, we do and have for decades. Then others attack. Interestingly, they were not the ones asking or the ones responding. Same for hybrids. Same for many subjects. In Rosys case, what he says is what he believes. That said, its right to him, what others think is true or not, does not matter. If its true to Him or I, is all that matters. If its useful to you or others, fine, if not, so what, But attacking and attacking, shows other agendas.
So try keeping track of whos attempting to offer help, and whos attacking. That would be a better measure of Character.

If Jorge and Rainer and I were at a table at a show. Would Jorge behave the same? would Rainer? would I? Sir, that is where the truth is. The difference is, at shows, somehow folks fail to attack us. And they "see" we are both fun loving folks. On here, our problem is, we have a spine, which is normally a positive character to have. So we defend ourselves when attacked. I think we are not stupid, when a game is being played, one must adapt to the rules as they change, if folks are going to have their fun attacking, well that's simple, have fun attacking back. But then, its no longer about the snakes.