Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I plan on getting a little cali king, my cage setup right now is a 10 gallon with a heat pad at one end and a UVA/B bulb. I'm buying a ceramic heating element just because the temp is not where I want it to be (winters are cold here) and am debating whether I need a basking lamp or not. I know they're nocturnal, but have seen several conflicting stances on whether they bask or not. Also whether they need a night lamp or not. I feel like night lamps are overkill as long as you have a good UVA/B source during the. day and the temp is where it needs to be at night. Any input would be awesome. Super excited to get my little one, I've wanted a cali king since I was little and it's been a while since I've had a snake period

Lamps will dehydrate kingsnakes! Stay with bottom heat and get some way for the hot spot to get warmer!

What temp are we talking on one end? Have you trieed with a temp gun to get the hotspot temperature.

I keep all my colubrids in a cold room year round. By giving them choices (from hot to cold) they use all those temps when they want and need to.

Even in the summer I turn on all the air conditioning units in the snake room and let it get cold in there.

But don't use a heat lamp! It is a terrible to have a light or ceramic heating element in a 10 gallon aquarium. I think those reptile bulbs for snakes should be banned. Dries out the air and that is where snakes get hydrated. Not from drinking!
-----
"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Right now air temp is at 70 and 53ish humidity, temp gun and other thermometers are in the mail so I don't know the ground temp over the heating pad.
And just to clarify you're just denouncing the CHE and basking light, right? Not the UVA/B light.

Too much stuff for such a small cage. And there is absolutely not need or absolutely no evidence of a need for a UV bulb.

The whole thing is about what you want. If you want a cage that you can see into, then a lite that produces a small amount of heat, can be made to work. As Bluerosy said, litebulbs can dehydrate snakes. Particularly in pet shop mode. That is, with a lite placed on top the cage and the cage has a screen or perforated top.

In any cage, lite or not. I would not use a screen top type of cage, cover it. Heat stripes, tapes, uth's are all good for kings, particularly if they have substrate they can burrow in. Lites for basking, well basking is not really what kings do, not like rattlesnakes, but they can be useful if placed over a hiding area.

Back in the late sixties to middle seventies, I kept Cal kings with lites in the cage, on 24/7 at 85 degrees and they bred every 11 months. But it was not the best set up by any means. It worked, lots of methods work.

Kingsnakes are not nocturnal or diurnal. They are fossorial and their living is made in the ground. They can move on the surface when temps and humidity permit. Around here, some move at night, and in other areas, in the day. Best wishes

Also I will upgrade to a 20 gallon long tank as soon as she/he gets bigger, didn't want to start out a baby in a giant enclosure.

If it is a baby then a 10 gallon is way to big in my opinion. It will get lost in there .

Neonates tend to be secretive and more fossorial wanting to cram themselves into tight spots.

I would go to something smaller than a show box size. Like those small plastic keeper tubs at Target ect.

This will keep the humidty high (neonates dehydrate mush quicker than adults) and your snake will eat more frequently.

Another poster mentioned feeding and that is what you want to do. Feed the heck out of it so it grows. Feed it as ofeten as it will eat and as much as it wants. The larger it gets the healthier and stronger (and long term captive) it will become.

A tiny snake in a large 10 gallon arquarium will get fussy and become finicky eater. This will cause slow growth and a possible problem snake in the future.

So IMO best to put into a small container with a water bowl and feed it like this for a month and then move up to a showbox size where it will continue feeding better and then once it outgrows that you can put into a 10 gallon.

Once it is bigger they are not as sensitive to wanting small cramped space. Of course you could offer a hidebox for the neonate but then they tens to stay in that and the whole temp range it needs is not used well.

Also the smaller box will keep a higher humidity which a neonate needs .
-----
"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

I knew that depending on what age/size I actually end up getting I would start it in a smaller container. Also why I started with the 10 gallon rather than have the 20 right off the bat. Any issues with just keeping the smaller container(s) within the 10 gallon so I can keep it warm and such? Not really possible to have much of a heat gradient in a small container anyways. Shoe box size sure.

Hello, I am going to offer you another choice. This is one of the rare times I do not agree with Bluerosy.
I tend to emulate nature, that is, how they exist in nature is where I attempt to improve captive husbandry.
Simply put, these snakes hatch in nature and do not get "lost". They are not confined to a tiny box. They live in and fully understand, areas much larger then even that twenty gallon.
When keeping reptiles, its a simple process, snakes are "too easy" they can tolerate taking 99% of what is natural to them away. But that does not mean they like it or its best for them.
As mentioned, I am raising some hatchling cal kings that I hatched here. I am also keeping them is glass tanks. They were started in and still in 10 gallon, which I feel is small for even a hatchling.
I can go on an on about how smart the snakes are, but this is not about that. Heres the deal, the larger a cage, the more you can place in the cage and have more options for the snakes to use. This can make it more fun for you and give the snake something to do, other then just eat and grow.
Bluerosy is highly experienced and knows the exact minimum to maintain in a tiny box. The exact humidity exact temp. That exact, is NOT the best for the snake, its the best for Bluerosy and his method to get them up to size. Which is fine, but its not about the snake. Also, Bluerosy generally raises many snakes, so he wants routine over enjoyment.
With one snake or a few snakes, I would hope you want enjoyment over "control". That said, the fix for my approach and Bluerosys is easy. Take Bluerosys exact little box, and cut a tiny hole it the top and put it in your 10 gallon, along with many other cage props for the snake to use. So yes to your question, you can put his tiny box in your 10 gallon, just don't confine the snakes in it. Let them use it and other stuff. The key is making sure neonates of any species are humid, not wet places. Heres my pair they are growing like weeds. Three months old, over doubled their length and did not get lost in a larger cage.

its the best for Bluerosy and his method to get them up to size. Which is fine, but its not about the snake. Also, Bluerosy generally raises many snakes, so he wants routine over enjoyment.

Well for me it is all about getting these little demon babies to calm down. They strike and stress at everything until they get up to size. I can get them up to that size rather quickly in a small box and enjoy them that way sooner.

Yes I do want to raise them up quickly.. For me size = equals success.

When I put a neonate (that is still feeding hopper size or below size mice) into a larger tub such as a 10 gallon I find that they go off feed rather quickly.

The tubs I use for neonates are about 14" long and 2" (reptile basics hatchling racks but I do use the long (snap top) Rubbermaid stuff as well) so they have a great heat gradient from the back heat and to the cool to the front. And yes, they keep great humidity!

If I was to put any of these snake that I could feed 3x per week from their long and narrow box into a ten gallon with hide spots and a cool and warm end they tend to make the wrong choices ...allow me explain..
-----
"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

...the long and thin boxes that I use have heat on the back end. The snakes justsit there. WHY? Maybe they choose the warm because as neonates are vervous and jitterish and strike at every movement. SO maybe they want the cooler front side but because they feel vunerable and scared of everything they make the choice ina box which would not emulate the best security and temsp. They choose the back over the front due to stress.

This all changes with kingsnakes as they get older as we all know.HWen they get past the hopper stage of mice they do calm down and realize that they are getting higher on the food chain.

So putting a neonate into a larger 10 gallon aquaurium is nice for the keeper. But do we really undertand what makes a snake choose things within that small box and why? Could be that they choose to cold or to hot due to what differs the least amount of stress from a predator.

So yes., I believe that a small neonate will do better in a small unit!..most definetly!

And what I meant by "do better" is it will feed and grow faster. That is my interpretation of "do better". Thereby being more resistant to desease and reproduce sooner and well, they calm down and you can enjoy them better than when they crap and stike at everything.
-----
"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

FR,

Oh and I think your suggestion of putting a small box into the 10 gallon is a great suggestion. But still the snake might not choose that box (as they tend to lay under lay boxes as well) . So the little tiny demons get lost in their large unit making wrong choices that are not the most suitable for feeding and digestion.
-----
"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

First, because we are not in total agreement, I feel like I have to call you names, oh wait, that's those other fellas. I do respect your accomplishments and massive successful experience you have. That said. You are failing to have faith in the snakes. They are telling you something, and your not giving them the credit they deserve. They without question know what they are doing.
Your so right about neonates being sensitive and fearful. And your right about the reasons why. When tiny, they are food for lots and lots, pretty much everything. So they are forced to find their needs in and not on. They are happy and secure when in and not exposed.
Your also right, they seek to outgrow neonate size as fast as possible and for the above reasons. Everything eats tiny things.
So far, total agreement except for the faith in the animal thing. End pt 1

So, you and many others, think the snakes are "lost" because it did not go to or use what you "think" is best for it. In reality, its not lost, it simply did not choose what you offered it. So they choose to go under the box and not in it. Hmmmm not lost, just did not like your offering, YET. and yet is a biggy.
What your doing is putting the snake, "on a rail" that is, forcing it to go from A to G, and only in the way you want it to go. On the rail, like a train, it cannot go anywhere it wants, no matter how bad it wants too. You sir, know how to raise them in a superior way. But even superior has many levels.
Your way is opposed to their natural design. Their natural design is to utilize and conserve, every stinking bit of energy they consume and use it for live events, food is not a consistent in nature. This means, they use a range of temps to utilize prey, they always pick the lowest temps needed to accomplish a task, this does not waste energy. Do they pick high temps, yes, and most likely higher then you offer, they do so when they consume large items, but as soon as they start to break down that bolus, they move to lower temps. They don't wait until its completely digested, they do so in process. Again you ask why, the answer is easy, because its how their designed and more efficient. so what that animals is telling you by not going in the box is, It doesn't want that box YET. End pt 2

Now let me admit, your method is superior, they grow like weeds, hmmmmmmmmm your good at it. My method is superior, I will compare my results to yours any day. again truth be told, both methods are superior. I could go on about how your method shapes the animals, but WHO CARES, they are going to WORK and work well. That would not be the point.
So whats the point? lets take you out of it. Now how well do they perform. You know, if someone without your knowledge is controlling the husbandry. Its been proven, not well, hahahahahahaha.
By giving them choices, its takes the keeper out of the decision making process and makes janitors out if us. We simply maintain the conditions and the animals make the choices. Sorry, people make good janitors. Also, each time you set up herps in conditions they make choices successfully, it teachs you what they are and how they work. In a little plastic box, it teaches you nothing. Ok, some, but not much.
In your case of under and not in. Well its kingsnakes. Use a glass tank, and bury your box in the ground. and you may find them in it and not under it. If you buried my little retes boards under the lite with one corner over a UTH. You many find they use that like crazy. Buried is the key, and why, cause that is how they live. Not how we live, how they live. End of this part. The next part comes later as I have to go clean cages, you know the janitor part.

Putting the snakes into a larger cage with decorated stimulation still come to what WE think is better for the snakes and what WE think makes the snake happy or creates a better enivornment.

If I had to choose between he two:

A) a 10 gallon aquarium which make "me" (the keeper) feel better.

B) or putting the NEONATE in smaller a cage so it can grow faster and reproduce.

I choose B because I see more success.

Lets take it a step further. What if I put the snake in one of those large troughs they use for feeding cattle. The choices the snake would use would be much greater. But since it is still in a box how can it choose a place to hunt food? In nature they seek out lizards, snakes ect. In other words they know where to go, because they will chooses the same places as the skinks and what not.

But pinkies don't seek out those places. They plop wherever you put them. If the wander away from a baby neonate chances are the snake does not have its God given instincts to hunting it down..

(am I reaching here of does this make sense?)

SO for me. Success is about how much the snake feeds and grows in the shortest amount of time. I am not saying a larger cage is not a good idea. But I have yet to see how it actually helps the keeper or the snake.

Back in the 70's we all kept snakes in huge beautiful wooden units with light bulbs for heat. We used bark , rocks, plants, created caves. But we also fed our snakes lizards which made the connection between the seeking out and "hunting" was natural for the snake in a big cage. Today know this is not a good idea to feed reptiles to other reptiles because of parasites. So pinkies is the way to go.

No matter how much you try, you cannot emulate the natural conditions without "forcing" the snake to adjust to its unnatural "ethology" . Most of my adult kingsnakes get 3 clutches per year. That is not natural!
-----
"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

A couple of things,
1. no one is attempting to emulate nature, I emulate why these snakes make the decisions they do.
2. of course you choose b. and because you are comfortable with that.
Naturalistic decoration, well I agree with you. But choices have nothing to do with what a cage looks like, it has to do with the real choices a snake makes. Which are based in nature.
I do not have the time now, but tomorrow, I will dig up a picture I took last year in the field. I took it because it represented what we should do. It was not a picture of a kingsnake with rocks and branches and an inch of substrate, a naturalistic water bowl. etc. Its a picture of a baby kingsnake, under a board that is in the spring sun, with tiny burrows is a soft moist earth. Where the board is heated by the sun, and the ground is cool and moist. I think you have seen this before. Maybe you forget? I think that is what we need to emulate.

And please sir, that old "emulate nature and NO ONE KNOWS" sir, that is older then both of use put together. That was good for when we started. Now sir, we do know.

Its funny, we get accused of making these things into a pissing contest, and we can, its fun. so here goes, I can raise them fast and strong, in both large cages and small cages or even tiny little boxes. Each method should appeal to someone. I fail to understand why a person with one or ten snakes, has to keep them is the least visually interesting way, in a box where there is no chance to observe anything interesting.
You and I have very similar but different approaches. As a person whos both a snake breeder and an exhibits builder, I put the two together, it can be done really well. But no, your not going to keep every snake that way. Some want to see the snakes do stuff, some want pet snakes. All that can easily be done. Best wishes

Its funny, we get accused of making these things into a pissing contest

I don't understand it either how people get offended and have to make personal attacks when all we are doing is talking about snakes.

anyway, I hope that is over now since that handful started their own FB group and those few guys are now the so called "experts" and getting some praise from newbies who do not know any better. LOL!

My guess is that is more important to them.
-----
"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

I think its just folks wanting to be special. The problem is, they do not understand what special is. So they invent a new special. YOu know, ragging on the folks how pioneered their hobby.
If they actually thought about it, indeed its about persistence, skill, work, detication and lastly opportunity. Their problem is, opportunity. Simply put, you cannot re-invent the wheel. You and came along at a time when none of this was done. So we had the opportunity to do something others had not done. We had opportunity and we took advantage of that.

We developed what had not been done before. And that is the key. Its so very obvious these folks hold anger aimed at us, because we had opportunity and they don't.

What they do not understand is, it was exactly the same for us. Only we had the guts to do what had not been done. Truthfully there is still lots to do, but these folks are afraid to do what has not been done, they have a fear of failure. So they attack us, as we did not have that fear. To us, it was joy, it was fun and if we failed, so what, we would just try again.
So every time you or I mentioned morphs, or social, or bonded pairs, or groups of kings, its like a knife being stuck in their little tiny hearts. It only exposes their insecurities. So attacking us is their fix. While you and I do not agree on all things kingsnake. I respect your work and your heart and your effort. Have a great day Rainer

FR and bluerosy really goodstuff guys REALLY GOOD.
passion, knowledge and love for the snakes.
I bow to you both.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Before I read part three, I will respond. Putting them in small cages, means you the keeper must know something. It must be right. And you know what is right as you have done it forever and its second nature. do it like this and done.

What you said about time(how fast they outgrow a cage) also goes for neonates in larger cages, they still growth extremely fast. Those pics are three month old snakes. By a year, they will be 3 1/2 to four feet. Plenty good or Cal kings.
last year, we raised a pair the L.thayeri, from 9 inches hatchlings, the female reached 37 inches, which is large for thayeri, in one year. Got her at a herp show, was 37 inches by the same show the following year. The male 33 inches, which is great for a male.
With larger cages, you provide what you have with smaller cages, same choices and more. And that is the fun part for me. I do not have to understand why they do this or that. As long as they are progressing same or better then your setup and doing whatever they want. Climb, dig, explore, hunt etc.
The point I hope to make is, with larger cages, a keeper can create a greater range of conditions and allow the animal who is EXPERT at being that animal, to do its ACTUAL thing.
We obtained some sand boas in mid oct. They were aprox 5-6 inch newborns. Raised in the same 10 gallon tanks, the female is now, 4 months later, 22 inches. It never got lost and I did not have to understand anything except to keep throwing food it it. Whats fun about sand boas is, they ambush feed, so as soon as you see one In ambush position, feed it. which is nearly daily.

Maybe on part 3, we can talk about defense behavior, as your right, they get nasty, for good reason. They are threatened. finish after part 3

What you said about time(how fast they outgrow a cage) also goes for neonates in larger cages, they still growth extremely fast. Those pics are three month old snakes. By a year, they will be 3 1/2 to four feet. Plenty good or Cal kings.
last year, we raised a pair the L.thayeri, from 9 inches hatchlings, the female reached 37 inches, which is large for thayeri, in one year. Got her at a herp show, was 37 inches by the same show the following year. The male 33 inches, which is great for a male.

You have an unfiar home field advantage.. Ha ha ha ha!

Could a be your geographical location for those species makes them easier for you to manage in a large container.

I moved from the west coast to the east coast back in 1992 . I brought 300 rosy boas with me. After 2 years they were not doing well. They just languished slowly to the humidity and cold. So I got rid of them. Then throughout the last 20 years I tried a couple rosys from time to time. They would do fine for a while but then had problems. I hear the same for others who have tried keeping them here. Does not matter if they have screen tops and plenty of indoor ventilation or what was in their cage unit or size. They still languish.

Could it be that some species just do better in other parts of the country? Some eat better if you have your house right in the middle of their habitat? I mean it sure doesn't hurt, right?

You live in what I would consider a prime area to keep black and white Cal kings and other snakes that love those conditions.

If your animals escaped here in GA they would be dead in no time. Not so where you live.

Therefore you have an unfair home field advantage.
HA HA HA HA!
-----
"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Rainer, during the time I have done this stuff, I live all over. Like you, I was a SoCal boy and did not have to do anything to breed snakes, except feed them. Then I moved to Az. Then while building zoos or working in them, I lived in Fla. New Orleans, Seattle, and other places in the country.
You bring up a point, that each part of the country has some drawbacks and some benefits.
Which by the way, is what has taught me so much.
I do not go by temps read from a thermometer. I go by how the animals react. In areas of cold, heat accordingly, in areas of humidity, vent accordingly. The biggest advantage here is heat, which is also the biggest disadvantage. Heat kills, cool doesn't. So I consider it a huge disadvantage. It is cheaper.
The best locality I have bred reptiles in was Seattle. As the basement was 55F year around. I could do anything at any time. I have total control.
In a nutshell, I have herped all over the world. In all places there are herps, the temps are both above and below what the herps use. How they utilize the environment to obtain needed temps is about species differences. The temps and humidity is always fairly consistent. In the field, every minute of every day, they pick temps and humidity, and they pick a range of temps and humidity. So If learned to provide that range, no matter where I live, the animals do great. The reason, I use them for what they do best, pick what they need. end pt.1

From what your telling me, your husbandry approach is a bit too tight, that is, its too narrow for some species to succeed.
For instance, right now here, room humidity is 3%, lethally dry for herps. Where you live, perfect.
I would imagine your problem with boas was, too much humidity during the summer. I would imagine that plastic boxes and boas, with high humidity is a no no. I write this while I am watching my trio of rosies, ones gravid.
ALso working in zoos gives me an advantage as I was fortunate to work with all manner of herps. So I am not stuck with a narrow view of husbandry.
I sorta or rebuilt varanid husbandry, and I was lucky enough to include a term. It was, Life events, to be successful with varnids, they must do things or they die. Snakes are not different, only they don't die, they suffer thru it.

I do not go by temps read from a thermometer. I go by how the animals react. In areas of cold, heat accordingly, in areas of humidity, vent accordingly. The biggest advantage here is heat, which is also the biggest disadvantage. Heat kills, cool doesn't.

You actually just said what I tell people all the time. It was like you stole my quotes.

Here in Georgia most of my snakes (the Florida kings) are in tune with what is going on outside. Though I get clutches at weird times. For the most part all of them breed when the flowers start to bud on the dead looking and leave-less trees. There is just that sensation of spring in the air.

I am not sure how strong that sensation is in the areas you lived in (?). Florida is hardly a good place to see seasons. Probably Seattle was better. I don't know I never lived there and just drove through to Vancouver a couple times.

But Georgia everything dies off and we get very cold here in winter. We are below freezing when we have clear skies. Then the greenhouse effect happens when percipitaion comes in it gets just over 33F assuring we get rain instead of snow.

An yes heat kills!! (another quote you stole from me j/k)

Heat is also another reason I feel much safer shipping snakes during winter months than summer. Short period of cold have no detrimental effect on the snakes. SO many times I get people who are concerned with me shipping to a cold area. They are worried the snakes will die. But I tell them I guarantee live arrival anyway, so no worries on their end.

When I get nervous is the hot summer months. Snakes will keel over in a couple minutes in a box that is just a little to warm.
-----
"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

You can get longer narrow small containers at places like Target, Wal Mart ect. They ae not in the same section as te sterile, Rubbermaid bins. They are usually in the isles where they sell kitchenware.

They are also low (1 1/2"-2" and not tall and you can give a greater heat gradient but just placing them on heat on one side.

This is just a temporary encloser as most will grow within 2 months to feed on hopper mice if you feed them properly. Then move to shoebox size or larger.
-----
"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

The other guys all gave you great advice. The only thing I would add is to feed it, feed it, feed it. Get it on hopper mice as soon as you can; give it the biggest food item it can safely swallow and watch it grow. It will amaze you.

Simple 10 gal setup:
Undertank heater;
Thin layer of aspen or "lizard litter" substrate;
Cover the screen top with styrene foam or plastic wrap. Poke a few air holes;
Add hides such as cardboard boxes, or layers of cardboard pieces, or pvc pipe pieces, or toilet paper tubes, etc;

Add a water bowl large enough to keep the humidity from getting too low.

Further info..
Those 50 watt and higher bulbs are not good for snakes such as kings. I have experimented so much with 10 gals. The best lamp setup was using a 7 watt night light bulb inside the tank, and covering the cage top. No need for high wattage bulbs that get ultra hot and suck up all the moisture.