Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't think anyone would disagree if I stated that things seem to have gotten a bit out of hand around here. I imagine phwyvern would nod especially vigorously! This forum has become a very unpleasant place to be for the average "Joe" who wants to discuss every day stuff. Granted...it's a lot slower around here when you guys aren't going at it like a pack of hyenas over a day-old carcass. But I'd take "slow and pleasant" over "rapid and ulcer-inducing" any day!

Why is it so venomous (pun intended) around here? Because every single one of you is so set in his or her beliefs. No matter what you say, those with opposing opinions are turning a completely deaf ear. You're casting your pearls before swine, as the wisdom of God's Word would point out.

I had once thought it would be possible to carry on a respectful, fact-oriented discussion about the issues, but even that attempt failed miserably because no one really wants to discuss the facts, no matter how vociferously both sides claim to do so. I think you guys LIKE beating each other up and fighting over the soap box. Unfortunately, it makes this forum virtually useless for what it was originally intended...a place for those with a common love (herps) to come and "chat" about all the other things that affect our lives and those of our animals. A few (VERY few) brave souls have ventured to post something other than this psuedo-political mud...but how many were turned away in disgust who had something interesting to say, or a question that really needed answering?

I propose a solution:

I have set up a yahoo group that all of you can join. I am the owner/moderator of the group, but I probably won't even bother reading 90% of the posts, nor will I participate any longer in senseless "pearl tossing." Therefore...you guys can go at it in a total free-for-all, without worrying about any TOS or getting kicked out. It is set up so that anyone can join...but it is not listed, so you must know about it before joining.

At the risk of violating the TOS myself, I will tell you the name of the group, and hope phwyvern will forgive me my attempt to make this board a nice place again. If you have any trouble signing up, just e-mail me.

pearlsandswine@yahoogroups.com

I really hope ya'll will take advantage of this. Unless of course, you enjoy showing this side of yourself to the world in a public forum. (It's really not attractive on any of you, you know.)

I hope you guys will enjoy having a place to fully and freely express your opinions to each other....and I really hope it will help clean up this forum.

Sincerely,
Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

I'll take the opportunity here to direct you to a thread just below this one Judy, entitled

This particular thread included comments from "both sides of the fence." And yet, it was conducted in good humour and in an adult manner. There was no name calling. No calling me "Herpes." No calling Hermann a Nazi. No mention of being anti-American. And at the end of the discussion, everything was left in good humour.

Problems arise when certain individuals make childish remarks and do not respect the opinions of others. If somebody does not have time to make posts then that simply needs to be respected. It is only a recreational thing afterall. I highlight my own recent absence and the unnecessary jibes made towards me for example.

Now not being funny, but I constantly see the most polite posts coming from eth anti-war side. We may not have all the answers, but we are voicing an opinion. Whether people like it or not, we have the right to an opinion! I am yet to see anything in recent months that makes me think the war was a good idea, but I admit I may be wrong. I am one individual and my sources of intelligence are limited.

This is an open discussion forum. We can talk about what we like. There are plenty of other forums here to talk about reptiles. Anytime I have ever mentioned the environment here I have been slated! People seem to forget that an interest in snakes normally goes hand in hand with an interest for the environment and our planet. At least that's how I see it.

Anyway, good luck with your forum!
Al Qaeda in Iraq...read more

Of course you guys can post wherever you want, within the guidelines and rules of that particular site and/or forum. I never said otherwise. I was just suggesting that it might be nice to allow this forum to be used for other discussions. And I thought that YOU folks might enjoy a venue where you can say whatever you want without fear of being kicked off or deleted. That's all. I'm not trying to start up a new forum...just trying to offer an alternative location for this particular discussion that you all seem to enjoy so much.

I've actually never had a post removed, but I'm sure many have. But then they probably needed to be removed!

What do you think this open forum should be used for out of interest?

What is the exact address for your forum? When I go to Yahoo groups I cannot find it.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pearlsandswine
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

You know I think there should be a war on terrorism forum, even if kingsnake would make it, it would get all this stuff away from someone else who would like to talk about something different but might not feel comfortable doing so.

steve

Well, that's why I'm trying to do this. But it'll only work if folks from both sides of the issue join up. I'm not "playing favorites" or trying to stoke any hard feelings.

And if you guys go for this, give it a few days for everyone to find this thread and join up.

The only problem is that the likes of certain people (look at the SOS post below) are the one's to ruin it for everybody.

How many times I have to say it is possible to be anti-war without being anti-American (or in my case anti-British) etc I don't know. And yes, it is possible. Over half my country were against the war. They are not all traitors! They simply feel it is wrong. From politicians, to average Joe Bloggs, people have differeing opinions on this subject. But they don't expect to be called names or ridiculed at every opportunity. This simply shows immaturity and an equally extremist attitude. I'd prefer to sit closer to the fence than so far away from it I have lost my objectivity!

I fear your forum will simply be an oasis for the pro-Bush and pro-war brigade. And sadly, many people will stay away! I mean I give a link to see how close your political views lie to the likes of Ghandi or Hitler, and again it gets linked to 9/11! It's simply pointless saying anything on this, or any other forum.

...are you here and why do you keep saying it? Like I said...you're casting your pearls to the pigs. (I'm not calling anyone pigs! It's an analogy!) The whole point to the discussion group would be to let EVERYone say their piece any way they wanted to say it. They're going to do it here...or there. I'd vote for there, so no one else has to look at it anymore.

Everyone who has bothered to skim any of these posts has a VERY clear idea of what each person involved believes. You're not saying anything new, and yet you still want to say it. So...why not say it someplace where it won't bother anyone? When my kids start arguing incessently, I send them down to the basement. They can still argue, but I don't have to listen to them.

Of course...you're not my kids...and I can't TELL you what to do. I'm not attempting to. I'm TRYING to do something nice for EVERYone involved.

I fail to see how it could possibly offer some sort of "advantage" to one group over another.

Actually, I believe that the main reason that this forum was created was to move political discussion off of the herp forums, mainly the Boa forum. I think it's great just the way it is. The political topics get all the traffic and it's a lot of fun if you ask me. If there are no political posts, the place will just fade away.

Well, if that's the original reason this forum was created...then I will gracefully bow out completely and leave you guys to it. However, it'd be nice if the discussion group was at least given a chance....because it would be nice to have a "friendly" forum to discuss other things.

No, it can be a friendly forum to discuss politics! That is my whole point!

It CAN be...but it's not. Period. Bravo that you managed to have a single civil thread with froggy. Too bad you couldn't have one with me a couple weeks ago. But I know you don't have the time.

Regardless...you're right. It's NOT a friendly place to be. If you don't want to take place in heated, messy mud-slinging debate, then don't sign up for the group. But if the group takes off and gets these threads off this forum...then maybe it WILL be a more friendly place for all of us to enjoy.

Given all you've said, I would have thought you'd be backing me up on this, rather than trying to shoot it down.

No Judy, we had a perfectly adult discussion. But, something arose in my life which took priority! I had the decency to email you several times and yet your replies were downright rude and disrespectful.

I woulld love to sign up for your group. But I KNOW that the likes of Devin (?) will spoil it! Just look at the link below as a perfect example. Sure, like Hermann says, one can ignore posts. But the thing is you still take the time to read them. And it's a WASTE of time. It needn't be about mud-slinging! That's my whole point. You may be happy with that sort of discussion but I am not. I stay away from people I don't like, period. I have spent too long trying to understand them!

I genuinely wish you luck with your forum. But how it can be any different to that what is here, yet with more "litter" is a mystery to me. Like I always say, I may indeed be wrong. But, unmoderated (and naturally you won't have the time to do this) it will just be like this place until Wyvern comes along!

On a different note, did you do the test? Are you a Ghandi, a Stalin or a Hitler?
PERFECT EXAMPLE

Ok...I'm going to try this ONE more time. I'm NOT saying the discussion group would be any different. Only in a different PLACE. That's it. If it works out, I won't even be reading the posts, for all the reasons I (and you!) have already stated here. It's not a discussion I want to take part in.

And if you call me "rude and disrespectful" for disbelieving something you said...then guilty as charged. I was just being straight up with what I was seeing, that's all.

I personally just don't see why we have to move elsewhere! What's the benefit? That's all I'm wondering? If you can sell it to me then OK, but I can simply see it as a place the same as this, with all the added rubbish that isn't removed. But....like I say, I'm keeping my mind open...and if you look, I am your first visitor!

Sell it to you? You mean you want Judy to spend time composing for you again? If I recall correctly, the last time she did that you rudely ignored her and disappeared!

You've got some nerve asking Judy to do your stupid test after the way you blew her off! Why don't you go answer her posts and THEN ask her for your attention? Stop being a crybaby and step up to bat!

That's the first coherent thought you've expressed on this forum. You must have had help from your American in-laws.

Devin P.

No, my point is that unless people can refrain from the name calling, that many will stay away from here. If Bush was in a conference and somebody continued to call him names, would he remain at the conference? I doubt it!

If discussions here were always like the one with frog, Hermann and I last night then I would stick around. I came back to see if things had changed here. They haven't. And personally, I don't have the time to discuss things with uneducated / ignorant fools who cannot have an adult discussion without calling me Herpes etc.

You see my point? I simply don't have the time! I enjoy discussion. But, like when you send your kids down to the basement, one cannot put up with b*ll[bleep] indefinately! Eventually, you get tired and do something. In my case here, my only option is sadly to stay away.

Devin P.

HYPOCRITE! You didn't stick around when Judy asked you to respond to the VERY CIVIL posts in which she spent so much time composing. Why don't you take the time to answer her previous posts now? You have the time to cry through this whole thread. Your whining is suffocating.

"many people will stay away". Kind of like you did when you were threatened by posts that were civil and compromising to your agenda!

... thank you for your offer. I appreciate it and I sense the good will and generousity in it.

I don't think that other persons are handicapped when we are posting here because they can simply ignore the corresponding threads. Nobody forces them to read it.

Personally I prefer to post here because this forum is moderated (in a forbearing way) and it keeps the one or the other from losing the countenance completely.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Thank you for noticing at least that much.

Of course threads can be ignored. I ignore most of them now, myself. However, some other topic of discussion or question posed can easily get buried beneath the mound of political threads. It just feels like.....the "room" is filled with litter. Who wants to come and visit in such a place? Maybe I'm the only person who feels that way? We may never know, because everyone else seems to have long since abandoned this forum.

You do have a point that because this forum is at least somewhat moderated, it keeps some of the more...colorful...people in check. But really, only just barely. If ya'll take this discussion to the group instead of here, you will be able to post your swear words without having to *** them out. Other than that, I really don't think things will be much different....just more direct.

Besides...I don't have the time nor the will to attempt to moderate such a discussion. And I could not do so objectively.

I have to say Judy that if your Forum is not moderated and the same people who come here used it, then it would be filled with the "litter" you speak of. Hermann would be a Nazi, and I am just lowly old Herpes. And we are both (supposedly) anti-American. Now that is not an atmosphere for adult conversation.

Yes...but you'd be littering up your own private room....not a public forum that others would like to enjoy. No one but you guys who want to participate would have to look at it.

I don't think it's right that they call you "herpes" or call Herman a nazi. I think it's childish and not the least bit useful or productive to the conversation. But I can't make them stop...I can only try and hope it will all move to a less conspicuous place.

How about you "direct" yourself down to the thread where you FAILED to respond to Judy after all the time she spent answering your posts upon your REQUEST! It's not too late.

I'd love to "discuss" my political differences with anti-Americans who litter this forum with their insolent, mindless drivel, in a "no holds barred" setting. I've already signed up, but I haven't been able to get on, so I will try again later. In the meantime, if our European "buddies" here continue to post their usual offensive trash on this forum, I see no reason NOT to respond. I am proud to be American, and I believe that those who insist on making negative comments about my country should at least hear what at least one American has to say about them. If you can dish it out, you should be able to take it.

Devin P.

Well that's why I'm HOPING the entire discussion moves to the group. That way you can respond all you want, without having to change your screen name.

Unfortunately, it makes this forum virtually useless for what it was originally intended...a place for those with a common love (herps) to come and "chat" about all the other things that affect our lives and those of our animals.

And this war does not?

Oh puleeease! How melodramatic of you. I hardly think your life is SO consumed by a war taking place thousands of miles away that you are incapable of carrying on normal conversations about every-day things.

Of course the war is uppermost on many minds...especially those of us who actually know people over there. But unless you actually LIVE in Iraq or Afganistan, you present a very poor picture of yourself with such a question.

This posting is sort of a composite response to different points brought up throughout this discussion by different people:

What it boils down to is this forum is really nothing more than the catch-all place for stuff that just does not fit anywhere else. Personally speaking, I cannot see that it would really matter if anyone really uses this forum or not as it's here to stay (though it is nice to see a lot of activity).

Irrespective of the actual description outlined for this forum (really just a mishmash of descriptions from some oddball old forums that didn't work out on their own), I could say that the primary purpose of this forum was really to just move the disruptive political/war discussions off of the regular species forums. But, we all know it was really meant to keep the abusive sports freaks away from the anti-sports people. This forum also helps to allow people a safe place to let off some steam and to attempt to keep some personalities 'out of trouble'.

Essentially too many people were finding that many 'off-topic' discussions on the regular forums caused trouble and rancor between individuals and just upset a lot of people. Threads would easily get out of control and bury the legitimate discussions of those forums. However, at the same time people wanting to discuss such topics felt that they should have the right to discuss things other than herps and not be censored for it (I seem to remember waxing poetically in length many months ago on the old boa forum over a fight that erupted about this very problem).

Now, to accommodate everyone, this forum was cobbled together as a compromise. If someone wishes to discuss something off-topic (especially something that is likely to cause problems on a regular forum), they can simply post here, then they go to the forum they normally hang out on and post a message inviting those people to come here and comment/discuss. This gives them their freedom to discuss off topic stuff and alert others to the existance of whatever topic they have created and allow those that wish to contribute to do so but at the same time not disrupt/antagonize those that would rather ignore it all. The integrity of the regular species discussion forums basically remains intact, those folks that want to can come here to fight or whatever and everyone lives happily ever after (well mostly).

This forum is given some (but not total) leeway in the enforcement of certain aspects of the terms of service due to the volatile nature of some of these conversations (and I'm sure you can also see from them why other people didn't want those conversations on the regular forums!). While I do not mind the fighting so to speak, one thing I do insist on here is that people keep the language clean and appropriate and keep the name calling to the barest minimum.

Now, with over 200 forums across 4 of the 10 pethobbyist sites that I am responsible for, I don't always have the luxury of being able to keep up with this particular forum every single day. I try very hard to believe that most people on this forum are adults and can behave as such without needing much over-the-shoulder watching. Of course things still get out of control on occasion before I find out about it - such is life.

Of course now that this forum is becoming 'popular', there is apparently the same problem here that was being seen on the regular forums -- that is some topics getting 'buried' in the proverbial mud slide of other topics. There is really not much to be done to fix that I'm afraid, but there is a work around. At the top of the discussion forum index page, right above the page #s, there is a toggle-link called 'collapsed view' (or 'expanded view' depending on if you've toggled it or not). When you collapse the view, all reply posts on the forums are hidden from view showing only the main topics on the page and in red is listed how many replies exist within each of those topics. This is one way of being able to temporairly clear the clutter so to speak in order to find topics that you may wish to take part in.

I think I got most of what I needed to say said, but if not, please let me know what I missed and I can see what I can throw together.
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PHWyvern

Once again, I thank you for your time and attention. Especially for such a lengthy and informative post. It's easy to see now that my first impressions of this forum were a little off...and that it is actually quite admirably serving its intended purpose by keeping these sorts of arguments off the primary forums.

It would still be nice to see the combatants take it someplace a little more "private"...but that was too much to hope for in the first place. Still...I had to try. I get these goofy ideas in my head and can't rest until I try them out.

Ya'll have fun with your arguments. Me...I'll continue to try and find the rare non-combatant posts and participate in those.

Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)