Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay I've had cal kings and desert kings breed in the past, but never seen a hint of this behavior, so i'm needing some advice.

I'm attempting to breed a virgin pair of 3 year old cal kings that i've raised since a few weeks after hatching.

I put them together for the first time 2 weeks ago with zero problems, but also no interest from either animal. They were together for 2 days and I separated them due to my having to leave town and not 100% trusting kings.

Just put them back together 30 min ago and the male was interested... started jerking forward in tiny movements up the female's body, but 5 min into it the female began coiling around the male. I decided to "wait and see" for a few min, but it became obvious the male was not going to get away. As I started unwrapping the female she began striking out at my hands and the male. She found the males head, clamped down and started wrapping him up again. The male was just "along for the ride" the entire time never acting afraid or hungry. Finally got them pulled apart and in different cages.

I'm assuming the female is just very hungry so I've got 2 jumbo mice thawing for her now and am going to basically let her eat as much as she wants for the next couple months.

I'm planning on putting the male back in a couple days... anything else i should try/ consider?

I'm 100% sure of the sexes btw... lol

any advice is appreciated.

they are not bonded.. so you take that risk. Every breeder who is not bonding takes the chances of cannibalism. That is what we have been trying to explain on this forum over and over.

But with boning there is a process. It is not as simple as putting tow adults together for the first time.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

you should have bonded them during the brumation, at any rate feed them both as much as they will eat and then put them together watch, repeat food intake every 3days, watch, wait, hope. imho she will not attempt to consume him if she is well fed. some of mine eat daily. the problem can be missing the males window as time goes by.
good luck

,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

What you have experienced is the fun of breeding Cal kings!! HAHA!!

They are pretty much unpredictable at times. Everything you have talked about can and will possibly happen.

Was the female hungry? Who knows? Maybe? Maybe not. They are cannibalistic, which many seem to forget about in this hobby. That is their instinct. No such thing as bonding with animals such as snakes. That theory always is preceded with advice of feeding the animals as much as they will eat. In doing so, stuffing the animals with food may create the illusion that there is bonding going on, when in reality, they are just full and not acting upon their instinct to cannibalize. That action of stuffing the animals is actually being used as a preventative, which shows that no bonding is actually happening. If the animals truly were bonding, they would bond no matter how much they were eating. It is what it is.

I have known many breeders who have bred 1000s of kings. None of them ever " bonded " their kings, they had tons of babies every year, and that was the result of the females and males NOT trying to eat each other, but just breeding successfully, while being caged separately at all times, but being placed together only for breeding.

Should they be well fed? Of course! Still, they are unpredictable. I would pair them up, keep an eye, and see how it goes. Again, this is how much fun breeding them is!! HAHA!
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Genesis 1:1

That theory always is preceded with advice of feeding the animals as much as they will eat. In doing so, stuffing the animals with food may create the illusion that there is bonding going on, when in reality, they are just full and not acting upon their instinct to cannibalize

Absolutely wrong.

It is amazing to me after all these years and info shared here about snakes bonding that you can still twist the results.

First off the whole feeding them as much as they will eat is and has nothing to do with bonding. I have often said we should let breeders(especially females) to eat as much as they want to produce follicles and be successful in producing more than one clutch per year. I often get 3 clutches.

I have been doing the bonding thing for over decades with Florida kings and not one case of cannibalism. Had one snake try to eat itself,LOL! But that was rare.

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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

I kinda have the chicken farm mentality when raising snakes.. In other words I have been working with hundreds of adults and producing thousands of baby Florida kings for many years. I kinda have seen everything there is to see. So that makes me an expert.

Before that I used to do the TFH or cookie cutter method of a forced cooling and then introducing a male into a females cage (mind you, fed the hell out of them back then also) and there was cannibalistic activity and I lost several..!

What else did I do wrong? Well I kept the snakes at a steady 85 degrees F. That meant the snakes had no choices.. What I encountered back then was males that were sterile, bad clutches (duds) and just poor years of production.. much like I still here about from breeders who cannot understand the ecology of the snakes. So they blame it on weather or whatever else they can think of.

What I do know is I keep the heat on and the room temp cold. This way the snakes can choose temps and, believe it or not, the snakes actually brumate themselves.. they actually know what temps to choose and are able to survive without being controlled by us.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

also Cali kings and other kings like Mountain kings live together in groups year round.. they breed within those groups and stay in the same area except to venture into the area they lay eggs.

Cal kings in San Diego are found under artifical cover placed near the deep cracks and crevices found in S. Cal and these snakes surface during feb and march to heat up under ac. These are the same snakes found year after year.

If bonding didn't exist there would be no kings..and some of these are fairly thin.. so you would think if they are hungry why not eat each other. But they won't because they recognize each other from their groups.

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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

It's information like what is in this post that makes me believe bonding can be/ is legit. In my mind it makes too much sense to be completely ignored.

I can certainly see how it's not for everybody, but I will be giving it a shot.

I guess when my next pair of kings is eating hoppers/ small mice... i guess 2nd winter (maybe first if they are early babies), i'll make sure they are very well fed and see what happens.

Is their more that I need to know besides appropriate size, put together at right time, large cage, plenty of choices (temps & hides), and ensuring that they don't get hungry?

Is their more that I need to know besides appropriate size, put together at right time, large cage, plenty of choices (temps & hides), and ensuring that they don't get hungry?

I have lots of young hets together now that I have not been feeding like I should and are thin and they are not eating each other for over a year. So ensuring they won't get hungry ha noting to do with it.

But feeding them as much as possible will allow for quicker growth to maturity and subsequent breeding successes.

As far as cannibalism. I really don't see (or understand) anymore how this is a problem for people. These bonded snakes just don't cannibalize and I do this over and over for decades. People come to my house and are amazed.. then they see them feeding and are even more amazed..

to me this is all old news. I don't know how people keeps snakes and don't experiment and try to understand what and how they do in nature and in captivity by trying to do everything the way they were taught. My gosh this pet shop mentality! Some people cannot break free of it and are rather strict about rules in life in general.. it seems to be a personality trait.

I understand even less the person who says bonding is a fallicy and does not work when they never tried it themselves! And then what I really do not understand is when they plaster it all over the internet everytime a post on bonding comes up.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

First, many here think Bluerosy and do everything alike, we don't, but we do things with the participation of the animals. That is, we both respond to the animals, not just control them. So we learned many of the same things.
I feed lots of small meals, daily, he feeds large meals often. In the last couple of years, we have been testing information gained from keeping varanids, like always having food in the cage. The result is, males tend to eat small meals more often and females tend to eat a whole lot at once. The result, both grow like heck.
Keeping them in groups does indeed work well and if we neglect them, and hold back food, for whatever reason, they never eat eachother. Again, we have the same results. We both just throw food in the cage and see no problems, even when its not enough food.
Why bluerosy says things about type of person is, we really do not understand why folks are simply afraid to try stuff.
He mentioned personality traits, I often mention control issues, but seriously, those are only guesses as we cannot figure out why folks are so fearful.
My best up to date guess is, theres to much competition, When Rainier and I were young, everyone failed, so failing was not a problem, we were free to experiment. Now, if your fail, your a turd or something, It seems people are afraid to have fun and think and play. This is suppose to be fun, and following instructions to the tee, never seemed fun and it will never give you the joy of discovery.
There is one key to this, when folks are screaming, you can't, you can't, you can't. And someone, anyone does it. You really need to question the ones screaming, you can't. As they are the ones who are limiting the scope of knowledge. Best wishes

I raise them from hatchlings in groups. The younger the better.

Like Bluerosy, I have done and tried and seen lots. I also tested this stuff. Something I did test as I produced literally thousands of cal kings(I pioneered the albino, high whites/high yellows etc)

I would raise clutches together and all was fine, no problems. But if you took one from another clutch and put it in the cage. They would attempt to eat it. I tested it many many times. What was interesting is, the new animal to a group, never attempted to eat the residents. It was always the residents attempting to eat the new comer. This was HARD FACTS

Its easy to see that this cannibalism is not about food, its about territory and group mates. Once they were adults this changed. I kept these litters as breeding groups and they did not like to be separated. ALso if you took a female from one cage and put it in with females of another cage, the females would combat the newcomer.

So yes, there is a lot to this. But its not math. Its behavior, as such, there are always exceptions. Such as outcasts etc, that is common with all social animals. If you think about it, social means to include others. It also means to exclude others. Simply put, herp societies do not invite Geologist.

The problem is people make everything so complicated. ITs simple, each group is US. anything not us, is them. Them is not us. Therefore they are fair game to eat. how do snakes know who US is? they bond with eachothers pheromones(scent) upon hatching/birth. Much like, oh everything else(birds and mammals, etc) Its not complicated or odd, all similar animals do it.

Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?

The real question to me is, why do people think they are different then other animals?????

FR,
Good job explaining!

Thanks
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

HAHA!!

HAHA!!

HAHA!!

billy you are to funny

,,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I have heard and read many things about "bonding," but this makes the most sense, as these are animals we are dealing with that don't have a knack for being predictable. Thanks!
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JonathanI

Maybe you should come over to my place and see how I have been keeping hundred of snake eating Florida kings for years together in groups.

Or tell me what state you are in.. I have many friends who do not post here and have collections of kingsnakes that are bonded and being kept together and fed together.

Try to understand this.. Sometimes it is ridiculous to have someone come and tell you something is not true when you have seen it.. Not only seen and witnessed it once.. but every single day for decades.

You have heard of people in the bible see Christ after he died go to their death for what they saw one time.. Now imagine how crazy it is when people who have an opinion on something they have not even attempted to try and test out and yet oppose it-

Achh, I don't have words..
sheesh!
*shakes head*
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Actually they are incredibly predictable in nature.

Even in captivity they are predictable as can be. Once supported, they are like clockwork. An example, when I produced lots of Blairs, most females cycled the same week, even the same day, year after year, after year. And it did not matter if I hibernated them or not. As long as they were healthy.

I have been watching gilas and one pair has returned to the exact same spot, to the inch, for 35 years and going. Is that not predictable? So I guess how you think of them varies with your own experience. Best wishes

Frank, have you given any thought to writting a book?

I can't tell you how much I enjoy reading about the interesting observations you've made over the years. I'd pay real good money just to have a collection of all the interesting things you've seen/ discovered. I guess i'm just a very curious person, but everytime I read something new about reptiles it brightens my day. lol

I think i'll go with just letting the female eat as much as she wants... i know they can get full and won't just eat until they explode.

when breeding a few pairs years ago, I always worried about the cannibalism, but never saw it, never even a hint of it with any cal or desert, so this was a bit shocking today.

I looked across the room right after pulling them apart where I have a group of corns basically having a problem free orgy and thought "why cant it always be that easy".

In regards to bonding... i'm one of the few that has drank the kool-aid and think I understand how/why it works, i just havent attempted the process yet. I will one day though, even if its just an experiment with one pair of snakes.

I'll keep placing my male in with this girl every week or so as long as she's downed 2-3 mice in the past couple days. hopefully it'll work out as these are my first pair of locality kings

Good luck my friend!!
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Genesis 1:1

Hi Aaron,
I have bred CB cals, wild cals, and wild x CB cals.

In all cases where I kept the female and males together over Winter, there were no instances of female attacking male.

In cases where I kept female and male separate at all times, then introduced them when the female was probably not yet ovulating, there were some instances of female attacking male.

In cases where I kept female and male separate, then introduced them when the female was definitely ovulating, I don't believe there were any instances of female attacking male. Can't remember any.

A few times, I have kept siblings together, as hatchlings raised to sub-adults. No cannibalism in those instances. (not saying it could never happen..)

And not every individual behaves exactly the same in that regard. Some individuals are inherently more forgiving to strangers, and some not at all.

The advice you have received from others is good. Put simply, to reduce the chance cannibalism, either keep them together over Winter, or else make sure the female is ovulating before introducing them.

I am experimenting with cornsnakes now. I cannot get them to quibble like Cal kings. Even when introducing a stranger, they seem to get along within a day. I guess that is what makes corns so easy in captivity. They do not have the intense territory-protecting behavior that Cal kings possess. I have played alot with Sinalon milks. They too are not very war-like with territory, and in very short time strangers are happily cohabitating.

Thanks for all the information.

I'm an idividual that is always curious about various situations and always asking "what if?". So knowing how the various scenarios worked out for you is fantastic.

The advice you have received from others is good. Put simply, to reduce the chance cannibalism, either keep them together over Winter, or else make sure the female is ovulating before introducing them
This is where I see people missing what the bonding process is.. I don't know why but folks seem to miss the part where we write that simply putting two unkown adults together for a winter is bonding.. which it is not.. and that can get people into trouble and then thay will complain the bonding doesn't work (which it does) but has to be done right.. Not some older unkown adults put together for a winter.. NOooo! That is not bonding!

actually that is a risk if the animals are older. Just one winter together does not = bonding. Putting unkown adults together for a few cold weeks does not mean they bonded like young snakes which were housed and raised together. Espcially siblings..which is what I have mostly used .

The snakes that share their food and don't go into shark mode when grabbing onto another during feeding time and then letting go are Florida kings I raised at an early age. I would not put that same weight or trust into a pair or group that is not bonded properly.

FR Quote:

how do snakes know who US is? they bond with each others pheromones(scent) upon hatching/birth. Much like, oh everything else(birds and mammals, etc) Its not complicated or odd, all similar animals do it.

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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Yes, good point. Actually, I put all of mine together in a 4ft x 3ft box over Winter cooling. The pairs that tended to hang out together mostly, usually on top of one another - they were the ones I paired in Spring.

But yes, I can see how simply cooling two adult strangers together once does not necessarily mean they will be bonded.

Aaron,
You have the right idea, feed her wait a couple days and reintroduce them. Also has the female shed yet? Females typically fight off breeding before the post brumation shed. Once shes ready and not hungry the snakes will "bond" no doubt!
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albinomilksnake.com

Have twitter?
Follow me @milksnakeMike

Mike,

First of I am not jumping onto you, but rather sharing information with others as some people just don't get it about what bonding is or hwo to do it.

When we refer to bonding it has to start at a very early age of the kingsnake.

You just can't throw two old unreleted kings together and leave them together and say they are bonded. That is not how the bonding process works!

The way I do it with Florida kings is I wait until they are feeding on hoppers and then put them together during winter.

They stay together for life. I have groups I keep of 3 in larger cages and I feed them FT chicks and they usually bite onto each other.. but I learned a long time ago as I sat and watched what happened instead of intervening.. they let go and then go after the food.

So it is common for bonded snakes to latch on to each other by mistake.. but they do let go every single time . All my pairs and trios do this during feeding anyway. Somebody else might freak out if they saw that. I don't bother to watch or look back..(I got way to many set up in bonded groups to keep an eye on them anyway) I just leave the room. No worries.

You can't do tis with snakes that were not bonded properly.. this is where the MISinformation comes in .. As one poster mentioned above mistakenly . Bonding does not happen as an illusion because we feed the snakes so much, LOL!.. BONDING is a process and cannot use just any two large adults that are unknown to each other to start bonding by throwing them together , no matter how long they are together.. that is not what bonding is.

The process has been posted before many times. But people tend to not look at what is involved with proper bonding and as such their eyes glass over and then they spread a lot of misinformation.. which is being passed on and from people who have never tried the process or bothered to even understand or look at it closer.

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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Yeah I never fed into your bonding thesis before and still dont, I'm not jumping on you I just dont believe kingsnakes are ever truly bonded and accidents can always happen where one snake kills the other.. when that happens would you say you guess their bond wasnt so strong? I kept a pair of 4 year old kings together all last season, they were clutchmates that were only together at hatching. They were of similar size and both ate as much as you fed them, so much so they were obese in 2012 so I couldnt breed them until 2013. They were together for the whole season other than when the egg laying box was introduced, then the male was right back in there. Feeding time was rarely supervised I simply left 6-8 weanlings in the enclosure and onto the next. Never had a problem but always knew it was a possibility. Why did these snakes not kill each other, did they bond?
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albinomilksnake.com

Have twitter?
Follow me @milksnakeMike

If you read some of FR's posts he explains it real well.

Here is a recent post of FR's that explains it way better than I ever could:

I raise them from hatchlings in groups. The younger the better.

Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

>>anything not us, is them. Them is not us. Therefore they are fair game to eat. how do snakes know who US is? they bond with eachothers pheromones(scent) upon hatching/birth.

Frank, you present a lot of provocative ideas, which sometimes raise questions for me.

In this instance, if we accept that inbreeding is not in an animal's best interest, what you're describing seems the exact opposite of evolutionary behavior that rewards animals with the best survival strategies. (In other words, if some species "bonded" and bred with their siblings, and others didn't, evolutionary theory would seem to predict the species which, by its nature, inbred, would eventually die out, while the others thrived.) I know I'm oversimplifying. But it doesn't seem like a good survival strategy. Could you elaborate?

Yeah, she shed one week ago today.

Hi, When your talking behavior(ethology) you need to understand what that means. First it means, tendencies and trends. It does not ever mean All and always.

With animals,(and people) social training occurs at birth. Any social animal raised alone, becomes socially problematic. Again, including people. So your first mistake is, you raised them alone. Therefore, you have no reason to ever think they will socialize normally. Back to behavior, they still can. Isn't behavior cool? Behavior has soft rules, not hard fast rules.

When raised with other animals, its more then simple bonding with a mate. IT teaches them how to live with other individuals and WHICH other individuals to trust. Out of that, normally they pick a mate to bond with.
When they Bond with a mate they were raised with, they are totally trustworthy. Two individuals that you introduced at a late age, they do not bond to the same degree, they may breed and not eat eachother, yet. Pairs introduced in the beginning of winter, are more trustworthy then those introduced in spring, etc etc. Folks its all by degree.

So can they be kept together without bonding, yes sometimes. But that's not the problem. The problem is, when they do not tolerate eachother, like your experiencing now. If they are normal, the above applies, end part 1

If you think about it, there is very little reason to think your animals should be normal or sane. They are kept in boxes that have nothing to do with anything normal to them. So to expect sanity or normal is a reach.

Sanity(accepted normal, it works) differs from insanity(abnormal, fails to work) In the case of one eating the other, that's a failure to work, or insane. Normally and naturally, these animals mate and make offspring and its not normal for them to eat eachother. So what you have is a problem. How to cure that problem is much harder then preventing that problem to start with.
While so many dwell on hunger being the problem, its not. The problem is, how come that female thinks a male is food. Or why does she want him dead. That's the problem. Not hunger. Maybe that's why guys tend to put the moves on the ladies, AFTER DINNER.

I would first prevent it by socializing the animals, ahead of reproduction. Or play on female behavior. End of part 2

Female kings, cycle and become receptive, they have a window in which the male can fertilize the female. This occurs when the ovum drop out of the ovaries and migrate into the oviducts. You can palpate the string of pearls easily.
She becomes receptive just before you can palpate and for aprox 10 days after. During the beginning of the receptive period, the female is choosy and will copulate with her male of choice, her bonded mate if she has one. Late in the period, she will copulate with a doorknob. Ok, that's a little raw, she is no longer choosy and will breed any Tom, Richard or harry that comes along. Guys, where have we seen this before?????

So wait until the female is well into her cycle, then place a male in the cage. Of note, when females are receptive, they have a behavior, its called cloacal gaping. That is, she lays strait and lifts her tail up and opens the cloaca. With kings, a female well into her cycle will gape for just about anything. You can touch them mid body and do that jerk thing males do and up goes the tail.(I swear I am not a perv)

Anyway, this is the biology and the behavior and the cure. Best of luck. A bit of advice, when keeping reptiles that can kill or eat eachother, its best to socialize them. that prevents all that messing stuff.

People that answer questions like this with, who knows, or no one knows, or maybe this or possibly that, are telling you, they don't know. But do not want to be singled out. So its not about others knowing. Because it this case, many do have a real understanding on this subject. Just not the person who says, "no one knows".

Personally, if when I have a question, I would like the person who answers to have an idea of what's going on. Its behavior, in all walks of life, in all areas of expertise, there are folks who know more down to folks who know less. The reality is good information can come from both type folks. Or not. The key is, is the information helpful or is it to appease. Its very common for folks to take appeasing as more important then being helpful. I hope I helped. Thank you

Placed the pair together again today. Figured it was safe as they both refused mice yesterday.

The male again started doing his thing following her around, quick jerking movements, subtle muscle undulations, etc, but the female wanted no part of it. She musked a little, crawled like crazy, and even gave him a nip right on the face. So I pulled her out of the "neutral ground" box I had put them in.

I felt sorry for the guy so I grabbed a generic amel cal king that has been just a pet with no breeding plans for years. I put her in the box and they both just sat for about 5 min with no movement and then together and at the same time just drifted together and locked up. Theyve been at it for about an hour now.

So my male knows whats up, it's just the goofy female thats being a prude. I guess i'll try her again in a few days and see what happens.

She is just not ready yet. So wait until the female is well into her cycle, then place the male in the cage.

There was advice on this thread how to feel for the strand of pearls and other ways to know if the females is ready and receptive.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Heres the deal, what you saw is a female picking a mate, not that one, this one, etc. Again, its a simple observation that you can backup in the events to come and years to come.

As I mentioned, females are picky in the beginning of their cycle, and not picky at the end. If your pattern breeding etc, you can use that information to lower the chance of problems.

The simple explanation, in nature, the males attend their mate, that is, they are with/around her until she cycles, then they copulate. If something happened to the male, and no male is present, then the situation changes and as time goes by, she will become receptive to other males. Of course, that's a simple explanation and these animals are behaviorally complex, so there is much more.

In captivity, we simplify most everything to the lowest levels, so it fits here.

The key is learning when the female has cycled and becomes receptive. You can tell just by looking when you have experience. Or you can palpate them.

Its starting to appear like palpating is a lost art. Replaced by the timing method, which is not accurate at all. There are millions of shotgun marriages that are proof that timing does not always work.

There are millions of shotgun marriages that are proof that timing does not always work.

*Facepalm*
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR