Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thanks everybody for the advice!! It should be noted that she's partially blind, so she will use her face to find her way around new things in her cage. She shed yesterday and all of the damaged skin came off with no ulceration underneath. I'd been keeping it moist with ointment. So that part is over thankfully! I've seen some things about vermiculite containing asbestos....so that worries me. I've also got a rat snake, who seems to have eggs too. Do they always stop eating prior to laying, and do they always shed before they lay? Do the laying containers need to be opaque? There's so much info out there and I'm not sure what the best course of action is. I've got experience with cyclura and eggs, but none of my snakes have laid so far....the king is about 11 years old and the rat is about 5. Our beardie is working on eggs too....eggs for everyone LOL!! Any thoughts? Advice? Thanks in advance!!!

Thhe best info you will find anywhere was right here in your thread. You have been given advice by two people who have been been breeding for probably a total combined years 90 years experience . You just won't find experience like that posting on the internet giving advice to anyone.

Snakes go through a nesting process. However what you will hear from the herp community "at large" is that kings lay 10 days after shed..which is not what you want to happen.. (see FR posts below this thread)

As far as feeding females...yes, feed them if they will eat. Some females eat right up to the day of laying. Some shut down. The important thing is you feed her afetr she lays (a lot) and that you do not remove her water dish prior to laying.leave te dish in! Gravid Females need water. The only reason people remove the water dishe is the fear the snake will lay inside the bowl and the gess drown.. but that is because they have not provided an adequet nesting site (they opt for a shoebox instead-which is not how snakes want to lay their eggs) and then the snakes go 10 days or more poast the shed and sometimes drops eggs all over the container-which is another sign the poor snakes had to hold her eggs in search of a suitable nest sight and never found one!

Lay boxes are not always recognized by snakes as places to lay.

Use a tile or glass pane or as FR suggest a total box just for laying.

And read what substrate FR suggested.

I would suggest you go back and read this link and if you have any questions not answered in it already to go ahead and ask~!

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=2022137,2022147
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

if she is gravid and just shed she will be wanting to lay eggs now.

Since you have no provided a proper nesting site time is of the essense.

Read what was suggested about NOT using vermuclite and try to emulate the nesting suggestions.

A lot of good info here you must have read over and not taken note.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

I wasn't sure how to differentiate between "good info" and "bad info"....if you notice, there were a few replies saying to use vermiculite....and that's why I posted the questions! I'm just trying to do the best thing for my snake, so sir, before you say what I did and didn't take note of, please consider that your method wasn't the only one posted in response.

Your absolutely right. There is all manner of stuff said on the internet. A whole segment of folks who read it yesterday and teach what they read today(like in a class at school)

How do you figure out good from bad? Easy, ask questions, just like you would do when interviewing a possible doctor or vet, and anyone who you need to trust.

Because we cannot examine your king, you have to provide real and accurate information. Even pictures.

For instance, while your female may be gravid, it is a little early for that to be normal. So some evidence that she is gravid would help. Did you palpate for eggs, its very easy to do and easy to learn.

Did you see copulation, as that would give you/us an idea when the eggs will be laid. Did she have a pre egg laying shed. That is very important and its very very rare that a king lays without shedding.

ALso, to determine what to do, make sure those responding ASK the right questions. Best wishes

vermiculite or perlite are great for incubating eggs.. But not for nesting females.

If you read Franks Retes post (FR) he said that vermiculite peels off and gets flakey. Which is true, and that does not make a suitable medium for nesting because it is irritable for the snake . Also my experience of over 40 years that snakes do not like to use that as a medium for laying. They kinda get frantic from borrowing around in plain vermiculaite like yours did and they can't seem to settle down to make a nest.. which says they can't find anything better and are desperate.

Best a soil (spaghmum) sand mix or sand/coco fiber mix, sand/spaghmum, or strait coco. Then lay a heavy tile over that and the female will borrow under it and make a nest.

Just so you know, FR has many more years than me breeding snakes than I do. He is one of the only true pioneers of herpetoculture to post on an open public forum to answer questions. You won't find any other herpetoculturists with his backround bothering to subject themselves to any know-nothing who compares their "pet shop logic" (I am not referring to you Jennblank) to their experiences on the internet. My hats off to him for putting up with us dummies.

You just lucked into a good place to learn. Most people who post on the internet either have very little experience or they are one of those that never thought much about the snakes and do things when they first read about it and have not evolved much past the pet shop book mentality because they do not have the ability to learn from the snakes.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

You have received some good responses, and vermiculite is a great choice used by real professionals for years and years.
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Genesis 1:1

" You have received some good responses, and vermiculite is a great choice used by real professionals for years and years."

I meant to say Sphagnum Moss is great for nesting, and vermiculite is great for incubation. Sorry!! DUH!
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Genesis 1:1

Now that's better, but vermic does have a possible asbestos problem. They indeed closed the U.S. mines because of that. So now vermic comes from other countries who may or many not care about asbestos. Perlite does not have that problem. In this case, it is about us and not the animals, as vermic may be problematic to us.

" Do they always stop eating prior to laying, and do they always shed before they lay? Do the laying containers need to be opaque? "

They may stop eating before egg laying, which is normal, and yes, they also may shed as well. The containers do not necessary NEED to be opaque, but a trick that some friends of mine use, is that they make half of the cage the actual laying area, by spreading vermiculite or Sphagnum moss all over the cage, and then, the snake will just use that whole area to lay.

But also, I myself have used boxes, some opaque, some clear, filled with moist Sphagnum moss, having the opening to get into the box as open as possible ( meaning no lid ), and that worked fine too.

There are many ways to go about it, and there is never a bad question. Good luck my friend!
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Genesis 1:1

Actually Billy most of the snakes I know tend to lay under the box. They don't like tall ceilings and nobody told them what a "lay box" is. So they don't know they are supposed to do with a lay-box. So since most want to secure their eggs and "nest" they either throw their eggs 10 days after shed or crawl between the plastic bottom and Tupperware box and lay their.

IF THAT DOES NOT TELL THE KEEPER SOMETHING IS WRONG, THEN I WOULD NOT LISTEN TO THEM DOING THINGS THE SAME WAY OVER AND OVER AGAIN!

Basically what FR and I are saying is to use your head a little and let the snakes tell you what they want instead of so many "so called" professionals. Remember these folks built their snakes rooms around the premise that snakes on need one temperature (85) and they copied the methods from 30 years ago and they don't get the same success from breeding as myself and others do who listen to the snakes and give the snakes as many choices inside of a box as possible.

I get 3 clutches per year out of my colubrids.. Big breeders who have the rooms set up with 10 employees like BHB enterprises who get maybe one clutch per year.

There are always better ways to doing something. And that is the point of our discussions which opposes some people who have been doing things ONE WAY for way too long.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Whats odd to me is this thing of, it works. When I was young, husbandry did not work, so having something work, was indeed wonderful. That was 45 to 50 years ago. I would hope our expectations have advanced since then.

The use of the term professionals, is the same as commercial. That is, commercial breeders. Please consider, I was part of that development of commercial breeding proceedures.

Where I am going is here, commercial breeders do the minimum to achieve results, they do so because of numbers. In order to stay in business, you must spend the least amount of time and energy with each animal to make sure you stay in business.

I had hoped that as time went on, we would advance from, it works, to what works better. Surely a tiny plastic box in a rack of thousands, WORKS, but never can be considered best, or better then what's now available. What concerns me is, why on earth would private keepers want to emulate commercial breeders. They are forced to do the least, we are not. ITs that simple.

About growth and reproduction as Bluerosy and I mention. People rationalize, think, whatever you want to call it that more is not better. Somehow they think less is better. This is a decent area of discussion.
I as a field herper and one who has kept animals in captivity, I understand that, snakes always attempt to reach their genetic limits. They consume as much as they can, grow as fast as they can and reproduce to the top level, IF THEY CAN. In nature, conditions out of their control hinder them. Their basic needs are always questionable, like food and water. Also nature taxes success. If an animal has excess energy, nature adds parasites. So that that animal can support itself and other lifeforms. In captivity, its us that hinders them. If your gave your animals normal for nature, temps and humidity, they would consume as much as they can, grow as fast as they can and reproduce as much as they can. end part 1

In captivity snakes do not choose less then, unless they are sick or physically not supported by us keepers.

With animals, biology judges animals success by the level of reproduction, not simple reproduction. If a population is at the higher levels of reproduction(recruitment) is a successful population. If its at the lower levels, its considered an unhealthy or declining population. The lower levels are considered "endangered"

So I question why folks think, "works" is good. As someone who works with ethology, there are normal reasons for this, some keepers do not have a high opinion of their own abilities, so they accept minimal levels of success as good or enough. And they may not have a high opinion of the animals. So again, they expect less.

When Bluerosy and I battle this area on here, its because we both have a very high opinion of the snakes and our abilities to allow our captives to reach levels above minimum. Husbandry is a learned skill and we keepers are no where near the top of the learning curve. So why do keepers have such low expectations of the animals and their own abilities? So yes Billy, you and I will never agree and its not about ego and anything like that. Its simply because you have such low expectations of these wonderful animals and their enormous potential. And possibly of your own abilities. So your argument of, "it works" is a bit minimalistic. And you sir, can do better then that.

Frank, you always are able to put into words what I can't. and then some.. ha ha!

Also I agree that Billy can do better and one day will see that because I truly believe he does care about the snakes he keeps.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

For me it is not about cliques.. I don't think FR gives a rats *** about cliques either. It is really just about the snakes and learning what we can from them. As it should be. And not about egos or anything else like that gets in the way.
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"I guess newbies cannot understand, those who build the foundation, are not the ones with great opportunity. Those who buy the latest generations, have the greatest opportunity to create new morphs. "

Frank Retes

Most native colubrids are super easy. Just fill her cage with 6" or higher of moist sphagnum moss (you can buy it at most plant nurseries) and let nature take its course. After she lays her eggs, you can even incubate them in the same moist sphagnum moss. I have been doing this for years with many colubrids. I also put the cage in a sunny room and incubate the eggs at room temperature. She just wants privacy; you may want to place a thin piece of plywood over the pile of sphagnum. So easy a kid can do it. In fact, as a kid I did it this way many years ago (with fox snake eggs). Still works. Have fun with it!

Great advice my friend!
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Genesis 1:1

That exact advice was given to her already in the first thread she asked.

Actually more than once.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Gee, thanks for pointing that out! But I thought it was "just about the snakes". No?

the message was for DISCERN who is keeping it about people..that is why he posted under your post only.

Read the posts by FR and myself.. Billy is making it about people. Good debate about snakes and information is what this forum is for and I am hoping it will gradually come back to its true form.. not snide comments about people and causing division.

Anyway, the post was not meant for you. So you should not feel a need to defend Billy.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

hahahahahahaha that's funny, first, I am the one who keeps attempting to keep it about the snakes. Not so much Bluerosy.

Also, why things get goofy is, people keep tending to add words and change the meaning. You said, JUST about the snakes. Which has a totally different meaning then, about the snakes.

About the snakes is a tool to keep people on subject, its a kingsnake forum. Not a so and so is a dipshat. The reality is, people come in many ways, and whether they are a digshat or not, does not matter, if they made the discussion about the snakes. I am pretty sure, I am not the only dipshat here. In fact, I am a lite weight when it comes to dipshatisum.

Just about the snakes, takes the human element out of it, but sadly the snakes are in human's cages and its the humans that argue about taking care of them.

I do not see where Bluerosy, made it about people, he simply stated your method was already mentioned. And theres nothing wrong with your method, there are better more interesting methods for those that care to learn them. But your method is a great place to start.

While that does work, no agreement there. I did that 45 years ago as well.
I have to ask, how long does it take the females to drop eggs after shedding? thanks so much

I have to ask, how long does it take the females to drop eggs after shedding? thanks so much

Excellent topic of discussion and I am curious what others notes say and compare them to mine as well.

I do not always have early eggs laying.. so that means somethings were needed or missing to teak the way I set things up.. Ther is always room for improvment and I wonder if this topic should not be brought to the top because so much can be learned (and tested) for people with an open mind to try.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

when I first started, we incubated snake eggs in gallon jars with moist sphagnum moss, then as time went on, the invention of plastic bags, we used them with moist sphagnum moss. Of note, we tied the bags and used no ventilation what so ever. And it worked. Back to the gallon jars, at first we used a piece of glass to cover the opening. Then used plastic wrap. The only problem was, some larger species hatched out of their eggs then hatched out of their jars. hahahahahahahahahaha

This is nothing new or earth-shaking, but sphagnum moss is great for husbandry. Started using it on a few moisture loving species. Now I use it in virtually every cage. Lots of it, either in a plastic box or just several inches on the cage floor. Eliminates hydration issues, provides cover, provides nesting material year round. Slightly acidic, may have some anti-bacterial advantage. Not really sure about that. Funny thing is that the snakes very rarely defecate in it. Like they want to keep it clean. I buy the stuff by the cubic yard. Females have it available all the time, drop their eggs quickly after pre-lay shed. They always have a nest.

I am going to try sphagnum now for hydration reasons and to see if they in fact don't crap on the side of the cage it is on..

which seems to be the opposite of vermiculite.. because my snakes crappped in it the moment I used to put it in their cage. It is like they see it as a toilet bowl or something..

Of course I silently cursed the snakes saying "stupid snake!" under my breath.. HA HA HA HA!
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

It's funny you suggest that they want to keep it clean. I've thought for a few years that snakes try/want to keep their living quarters clean similar to how a dog or cat would.

The majority of my snakes will nearlly always defecate in the corners of their inclosures... my black milks and one corn seem to use the same corner every single time and have for years.

I've started taking my argentine boas outside for a "bathroom break" and it works quite often. once they get the pudgy look near their vent, i'll let them crawl around the back yard for a few minutes and bam... no mess to clean in the cage.

i've notice the corner defication increase when using newspaper substrate as well. In my mind i think that maybe they know the newspaper isn't going to do a ver good job of keeping the mess in once spot/ away from them, so they deposit it as far away from them as possible.

there are exceptions though, like my dumerils boas just seem to not care and will go anywhere at any time. then on the other hand thanks to FR and BR making posts that get my brain going, I wonder if dums not travelling to another area to defecate is part of their natural bahavior as highly camoflaged ambush hunters who get to eat by staying in one spot and not moving about. similar to snipers who have no choice but to ruin their pants because moving around would give them away.

..And back to our regular scheduled programing.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

no one answered the scent gland question. Dang

I would assume the anal scent glands are to mark territory?

But nobody can touch this subject.

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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

I do not know what anal scent glands are for. Did some reading last night in Harvey Lillywhite's book ("How Snakes Work" - it is a great book, explains things in terms I can comprehend) and they had discussion on pheremones and garter snakes. You know, those huge balls of 100's of male red-sided garters rolling around a female garter in Manitoba, but nothing on cloacal scent glands. Speculating that they serve in recognition of snakes within a population, but I do not know.

WE are taught that they mark their territories, which is right, but only the tip of the iceburg. While as adults, they mark possessions, there are far more important reasons for scent glands.
Simply put, its how snakes communicate with each other. And it starts with neonate survival. Live bearers, the female attends the clutch(broods) for a period of time, then leaves the nesting area. With egg layers, the nest smells of mom. The hatchlings stay in the nest for a period of time. In both cases, its about 10 days, more or less. As the neonates expand their range, its not haphazard, They are "bonded" to both their mothers scent and eachothers. Doing this a a teaching tool. The scent trails teaches the neonates where to go. Like where to go when its hot, cold, wet, dry, etc. Where the safety zones are, and what colony the neonates belong to. I can go on and on, but you can get the picture. Simply put, if you can track a running mouse by smell, you can smell a million times more. In nature, the landscape is visual to us, but not to them. Its a landscape of smells, these smells tell a history, It tells them where prey is, and when. Where predators are, and when, and where other members of their colony(family and littermates) and when. It tells them where to go and when. All of which are critically important to their survival.
whats funny is, its so common sense, with the abilities of their predators, ones that see many times better then us, can detect smell, again many times better then us. Hear many times better then us, do not require flashlites, and live there and hunt at the best times(their lives depend on it) If neonate snakes hatched and had to discover everything, they would not have a chance in heck. To wander aimlessly in a world full of predators, good luck with that. They have to have a way to survive. The simple fact that they do not pump out thousands of offspring per female tells you, they have survival skills. Any thoughts?

Assuming that within a population of kingsnakes, those that survive and "prosper" leave their scent, however faint, whereever they trvael. Being crawlers, they are constantly in touch with the ground. Scent is constantly emited. Neonates key in on the scent and essentially follow the trails of the successful earlier generations. Those who wander too far from the "safe" trails either colonize new habitat or become lunch. The scent left in nature was put out by those that survived. The scent of the "failures" becomes fainter and fainter, gets washed away with rain, etc. Snakes have incredibly developed sense of smell (all that vomeronasal stuff) and they ain't got no legs! Always right on the ground where the scent is.

There you go, but, its not about rain washing anything way. Its day to day and mostly underground. , no rain there. But your right, scent trails age and eventually disappear.

There are several other glands we really have no idea about. They have structures on their scales, etc. We mostly ignore them, but they don't, they have them because they have a purpose.

And yes, because its a behavior driven area, some individuals do not follow scent as well as others. With that there is value, say, if a predator picked up and exploited scent trails, The individuals that choose not to follow trails, could survive. Its a constant flow of this, then that. so the range of ways behavior is followed, is all part of longterm survival.

Now to bring it back to the original thread, this is also how bonding starts and why its important to kings. If they did not form these groups, then kings would be their main predator, as kings "know" what kings do and there would be no hiding from that. Or even the part about kings eating eggs and smaller animals(neonates) If they put the eggs somewhere, they would go eat them, but they don't, or at least some don't.

Even bonding with a female is not magical, if two kings pair up and are successful, the best possible chance of success is to repeat it, and keep repeating it until it stops working. Another way to look at it is, they do it because its the easiest possible choice to make. Finding a new mate/mates, year after year, or twice or three times a year, has the most chance of failure. This is probably more important with kings then say ratsnakes, as ratsnakes are not going to get devoured if they crawl up the wrong individual. But they do it as well. Thanks and keep it going

As humans, it is a challenge putting ourselves into a snake's world. We have little in common, snakes and humans. We are upright animals with large brains and an almost nonexistant sense of smell. We have an aversion to crawling horizontally. Snakes are the opposite; small brains, incredible sense of smell and touch, crappy eyesight.

Alright, so snake-eating species like kings or indigos have a strong selection to bond as a means of survival? To keep from getting eaten by their brothers, etc.? So what happens when individuals from two unrelated populations of kings meet? The cannibalism kicks in?

So what happens when individuals from two unrelated populations of kings meet? The cannibalism kicks in?

If one is hungry and the other either not interested in copulating or not in cycle.. anything is possible. They are predators designed to survive.

Probably the same chances that people take who introduce a male into the females cage the traditional way.

The whole topic about scent glands proves that bonding recognition is a fact. what they do not recognize, they may just see as food.

But as FR mentioned.. part of the whole scenting is so that kings avoid or do not travel outside of their bonded groups into "enemy territory".

All animals are territorial. People are territorial ..ever get mad when someone sat in your seat in school?

The scenting is just a way for them to mark and recognize the territories. Otherwise if they didn't, we would have no kingsnakes as they would have eaten each other.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

I am not sure its about upright or not, as we do have a decent understanding of behavior with animals above and below snakes on the evolutionary chain. I really have no idea, and its actually worthless to dwell on why we don't know something instead of dealing with reality and actually attempt to learn what we don't know.
I read somewhere it had to do with religion. Not sure about that, I think its about value, snakes had no monetary value, we did eat them, so pretty much heck with them.
Study methods are actually a more realistic and current reason. The use of radio telemetry, is more of a problem. In order to belief that the use of radios is important, the researchers must devalue the animals to a point, they act like the animals have no behavior. And the belief that animals are DEAD. Let me explain, one definition of live is, to respond to a stimulus. Many/any type of stimulus. Yet, firmly or brainwashed themselves to "believe" that catching the animal has no effect, cutting it open has no effect, placing a foreign body, the radio, inside an animal has no effect the following it around with a giant antenna with a crew of people, has no effect. To the point that they release the animal the next day after major evasive surgery, and record what the animal does as normal daily behavior. This dismissal of common sense is so strong, they throw out science. Studying what animals DO is ethology, an area of study within the scientific world that concentrates on behavior. Studying what an animal does IS studying behavior. One of the first rules of studying behavior is, you cannot use methods that interfere with behavior to observe behavior. simply put, there are suggested rules in the study of behavior, and those rules are currently ignored. As well as many other rules of science. By guess, is again, no money in it. Therefore few researchers, therefore no competition, therefore, poor science. nothing personal to any of those that fall into what I mentioned,end par

Its actually a great question, the problem is, animals, and primitive people, are not human, hahahahahahahahaha or at least we want to attempt to make them not civilized people(human).
Let me explain, words/language, is not actually meaningful, nor does it have to be accurate. For instance, you and others DWELL on the work cannibalism. Which is consuming your own kind. If an animal or colony/population of animals, do not recognize other animals as its own kind, then its not cannibalism, they are simply consuming prey. Simply put, its the scent gland in action. Lets call these groupings, a tribe. A tribe of kingsnakes live together, hang out, breed, etc, and they recognize eachother first by that scent thing, then by familiarity(repeated contact) Once this bond is set, anything not US, the tribe, is then considered, other then, or them. If its them, it is then fair game to consume. With humans, its humans, us, then animals, the other. Why we don't call ourselves animals, is indeed odd. So we can eat animals, anything but us. But, primitive tribes, did not consider other tribes as them, so they were fair game to consume. Other tribes had different smells, different languages, different looks, so they were not us. So fair game to eat. Only modern man labels animals with scientific names, and these names, do not have a dang thing to do with the actual behavior and beliefs of the animals. Simply put, one tribe of kings, do not act or think that other tribes of kings are the same. And they do not called themselves kings, that's our word. if its not us, its them. simple. End part 2

Also, we humans have a very A or Z approach to about everything including animals and what they do. First off, snakes, have behavior other then feeding/breeding. They are alive and spend time doing and watching, that is not simply base survival. For instance, snakes hang out with other snake species, other reptile species, even other birds and mammals. Why, got me, other then they like it, require it, More, they seek out these relationships. We find the same groups of different species, hanging out year after year. Including hanging out with their prey species. Important to consider, individuals that is a species that can be consumed. In our field studies, we often observed snakes hanging out in cracks with prey lizards, then leaving those cracks and moving out to feed, finding and consuming a lizard of the same species they were sitting with. Back to the interesting part, snakes treat other animals as individuals, not as species. heres the interesting part, humans have pets and do not eat them(normally) and species we consume. Yet, if we run out of food, we will eat our pets, then if we run out of pets, we will eat eachother. That's survival behavior. The same seems to apply in the animal world. They have relationships like ours and a system of change like ours.
So the answer to your question is not a simple this or that. First off, kings do not consume everysnake they come across. So what they will do is conditional, which means, it depends on the conditions at that time. Normally snakes utilize what is called a preferred source, which is usually a particular prey species in their area, then when conditions change, utilize secondary food sources, then as conditions change, move to anything they can locate, then of course, cannibalism. This set of behaviors is common to many species, including ours. Again thanks for having and continuing this FUN conversation.

Normally snakes utilize what is called a preferred source, which is usually a particular prey species in their area, then when conditions change, utilize secondary food sources, then as conditions change, move to anything they can locate, then of course, cannibalism

"Preferred source"- that is saying mouthful there.

A lot to digest here.. people want thing simple and a directive to the care of a reptile and this is where they are so different.

I think of marine species like the great white and other shark species where they are trying to get them to be successfully in a large aquarium. I assume is so much more that marine biologist are missing from the behavior rather than just throwing them into a mammoth aquarium.

So do you think individuals themselves have different roles?

Like some eat within their respective rock pile while other venture out?
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

The more I read and think about this the more I realize how little we know about the behaviors and why the science community os doing things like clipping toenails of lizards and putting radio beacons/transmitors into snakes.

I would think that studies on indigos is more based on the populations and their numbers.. Rather than thinking about their behaviors and what it takes for them to be successful in nature.

Again it boils down to choices.. choices in nature and as you said preferred sources come down to several denominators (drought, scent, seasons, breeding choices,even prey items in close proximity vs ones outside of that area, ect the list goes on). Put a snake into a plastic box and you take away a big part of the snakes natural beha and what they are designed to do. No wonder some snakes eat and some siblings won'. It is a matter of supporting them in more ways and giving more choices. The rest the snakes are able to do on their own with proper support.

And then we have the assumption to say it is the snakes fault for not eating or doing what we think they should do..when it comes down to "us" allowing choices and allowing them more choices...,
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

There is no question in my mind that different individuals in a colony have different tasks. For instance, the breeding colonies I watch. There is one individual, big fella, which is a six foot male diamondback(db) On one hill, I have six breeding sites(dens) and thirty or so pair sites. Over the years, big fella has been recorded at most of the sites. He attends the area(females inside) like the other males, Over 25 years of watching him, I have seen many other males copulate with their females, right next to him, but he has never been seen breeding.
When keeping varanids in groups outside here. The big males rarely breed, but they are always out, always the first to investigate any thing new around. Seen that commonly and fit that male is the only male, we receive infertile eggs. Add a small male, back to hatching neonates.

With ethology, that's called naturalistic observation. That is to set up captive tests that express a limited amount of behavior or even one specific behavior. On the otherhand, if you talk to biologist, most will say, captivity does not count, as reptiles are different in captivity. Which is pretty much non sense. As you know, biologist say snakes lay one clutch in nature, but yours have three, so its captivity. Yet you can go catch one and feed it and it has three. Hmmmmmmmmmmm And I may add, on normal years most wild kings appear stronger, more healthy and robust and less fat then captives, so why would they have less??????? The truth is, its not about science, its about the people in science that are no different then people outside science, they are prejudiced by what they read OVER what they observe. Which is non scientific. oh oh, I am ranting. Lets get back to behavior

OK. This is getting pretty far outside the box for snakes. So does big fella function within the group? Are you thinking the other db's key into his behavior and follow his lead in terms of securing prey and safe shelter? Is his scent maybe specifically recognizable within the group? Related to his age? I realize these are observations, but you must have some ideas as to his role.

One problem with thinking about this stuff is, all the could be's. It could be anything or nothing or whatever. As a field guy, the report is important, that is what makes the data valuable. And reports have nothing to do with what could be. its what is.

So I can offer some of what IS. Big fella is unique in that he visits most of the sites, he does not fight with the others, and has not been observed copulating with a female. Of interest, hes the only rattlesnake to ever chase me. We often hear about those events but do not get to see them. Well, it was interesting, he burst up from being coiled under a small tree, and hissed and puffed all up and lunged and lunged and lunged. He never attempted to strike. Just lunged, once he was close(I was taking pics and laughing like crazy) He changed his behavior. He went from lunging to a high coil in striking position, while weaving his way back to his hole. If I was asked to give an opinion on what he did, it would be he burst into a threat behavior that works on other animals, like cows, coyotes, pigs etc. When he realized what I was, he retreated and would have struck if pushed. It appears(hypothetical, theoretical) hes a guard. or at least acts like one. Or not. One year, I found him with another large individual, I could not tell the gender of the other one. I have pics. ITs again, possible that was his bonded mate, and now he does not have one, so he keeps looking. Actually twice he was found with that huge mate. That was at least twenty years ago.

Ecological study on eastern indigos published in well-respected journal just a few years ago describes surgically implanting radio transmitters into 20 eastern indigos to study shifts in habitat use. A wildlife veterinarian cut open these snakes to implant the transmitters into the body cavity. Wonder how many of those snakes ended up dying. Potential for biasing results by invasive procedure was not addressed.

The problem is time. They want to do a study quickly, so they can gain data quickly with telemetry studies. In my opinion, that data is nearly worthless as information on what it takes to keep an animal in existence or for re-introduction purposes. There is real information to be gained and its all about predator avoidance behavior. Not reproductive or other. Its what an animal does when captured by a predator and escapes. In most cases, they abort that part of their range/routine. Some on the first event, others second event, others third. Etc, this also is about time between events. Contact an animal three times in three days and its outa here. Once a year, not so much, etc. also the severity of change is individualistic. Some more then others. There are no rules or trends that say an animal must respond the same way, each time and all individuals. A dumb example, if you take a thousand people, and have them walk down a dark hallway, one at a time, and at a certain point, have a fake bear jump out at them. 80% will scream. of that 80% 25% will pee their pants, of that percentage, 2% will both pee and crap their pants. Of the remaining 20% that did not scream 14% ran the other way. 5% grabbed the guy in the bear suit and beat the only crap out of him. The last percentage died of a heart attack. And all those percentage do vary by the makeup of the bear, and how well the man inside imitated the bear sound. This example is why biology attempts to dismiss behavior, And such terms as social as this without question complicates the whole nine yards. Back to the studies. in most cases, they are not funded by beneficial support, they are in many cases by law, funded by the companies that are going to destroy the habitat. Which means the funding is just to record what use to be there. Not how to preserve animals already there and are suffering. I would venture to say, none of these studies are about the possibility of using the information for re-introduction. end p 1

I thought that was a great analogy ..ha ha ha ha!
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Also the information is not aimed at or directed to captive husbandry. Its also not broad, that is, its not about many or several aspects of a population. is simply following an adult individual and recording what it does while being followed.
If you really want to get me going, talk about some of the re-introduction attempts going on now by me. They spend millions of dollars, and act like total slap arse kids without a bit of usable knowledge. And its all about dismissing behavior. They caught a number of adult bighorns by Yuma, and released them north of Tucson. Helicopters chasing them down, tranquilizer guns, cages, trucks etc. Then simple let them go into the new mountain range. about half are dead already, lions killed them, so lets kill the lions, makes sense right? Dang theres a lot of lions. The public is sick of game and fish killing lions, as am I. The reality is, its not about the lions. Lions occurred where the bighorns use to live. To me its appalling how ignorant people can be. These animals are not windup toys they have a brain. they learn their habitat. As with snakes, people, dogs, etc, learning is done when young. The animals in a habitat have learned the habitat. They learn where to hide, where to feed, when to feed and where to run, etc. Where they are successful, is based on a continuum of learning and teaching of offspring. OK so what would I do, hmmmm I would dumb it down a lot. I would set up captive breeding enclosures in the areas they want the animals to live, then allow the offspring to venture out(hack out) There will still be losses, but not to the supporting adults. dang rant over(for now), the point I am making is, we are not as smart as you think. If your think about it, its pretty naïve to think you can captive an adult in one area release it in another and have it simply carry on.

To me its appalling how ignorant people can be. These animals are not windup toys they have a brain. they learn their habitat

One would think the Division of Fish and Wildlife relocating animals would have some other body of control over their recommendation of said relocating. Like somebody that knows what they are doing.

Our tax dollars hard at work..
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

I guess I missed where the scent gland question was initially asked...

I really don't know, but I would guess for identification and/or signalling purposes similar to a lot of other animals.

When you think about it, is there any other animal so in contact with the ground as a snake? Not many. Even (most) lizards are up off the ground on legs. Snakes are either crawling over ground or burrowing in it. Always in contact with it. Scent is crucial to them. What about those marine seasnakes? Never touch the ground, live in the ocean. Do they have scent glands? Do they have such a well developed sense of smell? Why would they need it in the ocean?

Don't fall off the deep end(and in the ocean) Sea snakes are another ball of wax all together, like other species, they most likely do the same thing differently.
Having seen sea snakes, I have to wonder why they aren't called bait. Off of Costa Rica, they have a golden sea snake, It sticks out like a sore thumb. Just floating coiled up, bobbing in the ocean, lots and lots of them. Got to have something going, or they would be fish poop.

Also, they do congregate in places during breeding season, so they have some idea of colony and space. Its a weird thought, that they could leave trails in the ocean for others to follow. maybe they just scent an area, then find others visually. As they do stick out. See its fun to think. thanks again Ot, once I was about to toss a banded sea krait into a boat full of islanders, some one talked me out of it. hahahahahahahahaha I put my hand under it and was ready to toss it in the boat, My worse half stopped me.

Actually, I was not thinking of you in the least. But you make one of the points I tried to make. Actually you made a couple of them.

First the reality, if your a newbie, even a really good one, there is no possible way for someone, anyone with lots of experience to not talk down to you. That is, if they're offering something you don't know, or are not aware of as talking down. Or offering you something that's commonplace and everyday, but new to you.

If I beat around the bush, most likely that is of little value, and after doing that ten thousand times, it is almost always a waste of time.
An example to help you understand, If you as a newbie, took a college course, offered by a PHD, Well, that's not going to happen, you will have to take and pass a whole lot of prerequisite classes first. Or, the lower level courses are taught by Student teachers or beginner teachers. One of the reasons is, you can relate better to someone close to your experience level. Are there some newbie students that would take the advanced class and do well, yes, but very few. The very special ones. The ones that come to learn and not worry about clutter.
here, there is no such separation. You get to ask questions to those with lots of experience. This is real life, so its your task to ask the right questions, and keep asking the right questions until you understand the answers and solve whatever problem you have. Again, its your task to get past the clutter. And in this case, the clutter is how its presented to you and all the folks around that do not care about learning or the animals and do not want anyone else to succeed past their level of understanding. Then it becomes your choice, you can ignore the clutter, get past the clutter or become the clutter, its your choice. End part 1

Also, if you do not like the way I or others repond to your questions, then simply ask someone else. I remember when I was young and new, when I asked questions to those with more experience then I, I liked being treated as an equal, Which means, they had enough respect for me to MAKE ME THINK AND MAKE ME COME UP WITH THE RIGHT ANSWER. I liked them being HARD on me. Again, on personal level, when someone anyone knows something or has experience that I don't know and want to know. I will suck that out of them so fast they will think, I am the one that came up with it. And I don't care if they are nice guys, dipshats or anyother social type.
This advice is life advice as it will be the same in all walks of life, because there are so many people, you will have to work your way up the ladder, in all areas. In all areas, there will be this clutter, its your task to work thru it. so, its your task to work thru any precieved clutter. If you want to blame a person, any person who's trying to help you understand something, then simply put, that's your personal problem.
So if Bluerosy or I are clutter to you, then move on and find someone whos not. But to call names, well that's not about you learning about kingsnake husbandry. ITs about you being clutter for others who want to learn. End part 2

I actually don't know Bluerosy personally. Not sure we have met. maybe a long time ago at a herp show or something. But, I do think if we did know eachother and were friends, we would ruin the world.

Here is why, Bluerosy appears to not be happy with NORMAL, not for himself or anything he likes. So he pushes himself(hard) and hes harder on himself then anyone around him. Hes also very forgiving to those around him. Hes not happy with "normal" animals, he enjoys pushing their limits just like he enjoys pushing his own limits. He also flat out doesn't understand why others are happy with the lowest levels of well, anything, muchless the way they keep animals. But he doesn't look down on them, he just doesn't understand why they are happy with average or less. Bluerosy, am I wrong???? Ok, maybe I was talking about me. Best wishes and I hope you find what your looking for and I didn't have you in mind, I was actually thinking of someone else.

Hes also very forgiving to those around him. Hes not happy with "normal" animals, he enjoys pushing their limits just like he enjoys pushing his own limits. He also flat out doesn't understand why others are happy with the lowest levels of well, anything, muchless the way they keep animals. But he doesn't look down on them, he just doesn't understand why they are happy with average or less. Bluerosy, am I wrong????

Good job! Yeah I do not understand why people want average or less. The fun is through the learning from the animals. When you give out the recipe you would think people would want to know how you arrived with that. That is where I really do not understand people who keep snakes!!. They just should have a dog or other "pet".

So you are correct sir. I do not understand why people do not have an interest in these animals beyond the 123 THF pet shop method and cooling during winter and throwing 2 snakes together in the spring.

I do not look down on others at all. I just want to help them with what I have discovered. I am also one of the most forgiving men ever as I know what is in a person and how we tick..So I am no better or worse than anyone else..

You know there is a quote in the bible. It says "do not throw your pearls in front of pigs". There is some wisdom from that. With the internet anyone can bash. It is easy.. what is hard is having a thick skin and willingness to take abuse and still dish out kindness.. In your case FR ,it is a love for the snakes and teaching, it is in the highest degree of patience and long-suffering dealing with nimrods. In the time you started posting most have already changed their thinking and views of understanding to a large degree. And now it is becoming normal place...even though they went down kicking and screaming.. they actually learned and I see a change.. Slow but sure.. in time.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Hey guys long time follower first time posting. Thinking of using ceramic tile with moist sphagnum Moss packed under it for nesting spot. My concern is the weight of the tile damaging the clutch or would the female move the substrate around in such a manner as to support the weight of the tile while protecting the clutch. In the wild a log would be supported, a pile of trash have cavities, or a pile of pine straw or grass not have the weight to damage the clutch. Any input would be appreciated.

the females will move the substrate around and make a nest.. then lay curled up around her eggs.

They want it tight and secure like this.

Welcome to the forum BTW!
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Here is a clutch left under glass pane.. I usually use tile , but the glass is cool because you can see though .

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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR