Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Good day people,

My wife and I are new owners of a baby male, Albino Banana King. We have had him for about a week now. He was fed a pinky before he was shipped to us, has been very active, and has started to move around more looking like he is searching for something, which we are assuming, might mean he's getting hungry, but when we offer him a thawed pinky with some tongs, he won't take it. Temps are mid 80s hot/ mid 70s cool side.

Welcome to the forums. Is this your first snake? Do you have experience with other kingsnakes?

Well there is a lot more info needed before we can answer your question.. And then I am not sure what your question is except why he is not eating. Are you sure the previous owner said he ate once? I ask because a being still a baby in March 2014 is rather late for a small neonate and especially that he ate only once raises some red flags.

He would have been born last summer 2013 and should have some size unless the previous owner had him cooled all winter and he ate last year only once.

Have you left the pinky in with him overnight?

When was the last time the previous owner says he ate?

how big a cage unit is he in? Maybe if his unit is to large try putting the pinky in with him in a deli cup overnight.

Does he have a hide box?

Have you tried live pinkies?

How often are you planning on feeding him? (I ask because there is a lot of bad info out there about feeding schedules).

If he is restless it could mean a lot of things. Also you should try and feed him as ofen as he will eat (depends on the size of the pinky, fuzzy ect..and how big the snake is)

how big is he?

Finally, post a picture of the snake!.. if nothing else give us something to give us an idea and also to admire

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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Thanks for the quick response! This is our first snake, we read a few books, and researched online. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that he only ate once, I meant they fed him a little before he was shipped, but the company said that they feed them several times until they are used to being fed pinkies. he's about a foot long. We got him in a 10 gallon tank, with two hideouts, one on the cool side, and one on the warm, and water bowl all the way on the cool side. we left one out over night a couple nights ago. The pinkies we have are about the size of the last knuckle to finger tip. we are using aspen shavings as the "bedding" along the bottom of the tank. We will post pictures soon.

he's about a foot long

Okay thanks for the info. I am glad you mentioned he is a foot long because the fact you said he was eating pinkies I imagined a neonate.

First thing you need to know is your snake is probably starved a bit.. You need to bump up the food size. I would suggest hoppers for a foot long king. Or feed sevral (3 or 4) fuzzies.

You did not mention how often you will feed but I can tell you this.. If he is a foot long and was last years hatch, you need to start feeding him more. He will be healthier and less finsicky if you do and a much better long term captive.

A problem with some breeders/brokers/sellers is that they feed snakes sparingly. What we refer to as "maintenance diets", which is usually just enough to keep them alive while they sit for a new owner who will purchase feed them properly.

I am sure you king will feed more regulary and calm down a bit once you get him started on some large meals.

Snakes that are fed sparingly sometimes succumb to improper development and have issues being finicky..I have a picture in mind of starving children is Africa also have problems after they have been barely fed improper diets lacking calcium and protien and weigh 30lbs and are 12 years of age.

A pinky is mostly made up of water.. if you ever seen one dry out you know what I mean.

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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

sorry this site only allows a maximum of 2000 characters per post.

So feed the heck out of him and leave food in overnight and see if he eats that way instead of taking from a tong-which you don't need to do!

Also, ..if he is in pre shed cycle he may not eat until after he sheds.
Post some comprehensive pics of the entire snakes and closeup of the head and eyes.

One last suggestion I have is read some of the posts by a poster here who goes by the username FR. He is a pioneer and has some great insight to the ethology and behavior of kingsnakes (and snakes and reptiles in general) and that will really help you understand the uniqness of keeping snakes as opposed to other animals. We are lucky to have him here.

Thanks

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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

thank you for the information.
the pinkie we are trying to feed him is huge compared to his body and head.
we have left a pinkie out over night, and the next day left one out for him for a few hours in the late evening. He won't touch it. He smells it and rub rubs his body on it but nothing more.
We've tried wiggling it in front of him, we've tried cutting open the skull so some brains came out to appease him (both which i read on different forums) and nothing is working.

If I were in your shoes, i'd leave the snake completely alone for about 1 week... make sure the water bowl is filled up, temps are good, and then forget it is there.

after a week, put a small brained pinky in a delicup with the snake overnight.

Good thoughts!
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Genesis 1:1

actually leaving the snake without feeding it will can cause problems.

In todays world we ship snakes to different geographical locations. Which is most likely far away from where the original spp originated from. Then add to the fact that different time zones and other forces that will throw a snake off if not fed right away.

So there is no reason to NOT feed the kingsnake and then leave it alone to digest and adjust... that way the snake at least conditions itself to it new location and won't go off feed.

This advice of not feeding a snake and allowing it to settle in used to be something I was told back in the 60's and 70's. So everybody just accepted that as gospel. I would like to think herpetoculture has progressed in the last 40 years.

This "assumption" is just that. An assumption! Pure assumption that these snakes need this "time". But for what reason? If anything it makes the snake less likely to eat and get back on track in a new part of the world.

I have seen this too many times when shipping thousands of snakes over the last few decades, and then the people who do not take this advice have a hard time getting a good feeder to eat again.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

the pinkie we are trying to feed him is huge compared to his body and head.

Here is a tiny hybrid kingnake that is about 8"-8 1/2" that just ate a large pinky.. Look at the size of the neck and the lump (which has already been compressed):

I feed my snakes routinely like this and they have amazing growth spurts.. The pinkies tend to fill them up just enough where they don't want another pinky. I kinda look at pinks like we do at junk food = empty calories. Just enough to give you the sense of eaten something, so it ruins the appetite for more.
So you are not doing much for proper growth. these kings eat small snakes and lizards such as skinks in the wild.. their systems can handle some pretty heavy meals.

I guess I do compare things to a bodybuilding or diet of a person trying to gain healthy muscle weight. .. which I think is a good approach to healthy captive reproducing snakes as well.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

First of all, congrats and welcome.

you've come to the right place... while the forums are much slower than years past, the amount of knowledge you can pic up from some of the posters here is amazing.

Everything bluerosey has said is great info, the only part i'll add my 2 cents on is that a foot long king might not be able to handle a fuzzy. most can and do, but I have seen a few scrawny ones that while approx a foot long, would do better with a few weeks of all the pinkies they can eat before upping the size.

as far as your snake not eating... all kinds of tricks out there to get them eating. start by leaving it alone until it's eaten 3-4 times on it's own. try both f/t and live rodents of the appropriate size, try cutting the head/snout of a f/t pinky, try putting the snake in a deli cup with the pinkie over night. those are some of the easier methods. if they all fail over the course of a few weeks, report back and someone can discuss tease feeding or assist feeding with you.

good luck

thank you for your 2 cents

thank you both for your advice.

I agree it is hard to tell the size of the snake by description.. but 12" king should be on fuzzies already.. I feed mine large meals.. They eat snakes in the wild and can take it.

But without a picture.. I agree we cannot say for sure.

The only thing I disagree with is leaving the snake alone and not feeding it.. The best time to feed it in a new location and get the snake accliimated is to feed it the first day of arrival.

Back in the day one of the tricks to getting stubborn feeders to eat was to take them for a drive in the car for 1 hour.. While I can't explain it.. it worked almost all the time with snakes where we tried all sorts of methods and they refused.. esp lizard feeding spp.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

"
Everything bluerosey has said is great info, the only part i'll add my 2 cents on is that a foot long king might not be able to handle a fuzzy. most can and do, but I have seen a few scrawny ones that while approx a foot long, would do better with a few weeks of all the pinkies they can eat before upping the size. "

You are correct. A foot long king would be able to handle a small peach fuzzy, at the very biggest. No, he would not be able to handle multiple fuzzies. Sorry, that is not physically possible. The OP is being toyed with.

Aaron has had the best advice so far, so I would stick with that.
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Genesis 1:1

May as well offer one more opinion. hahahahahahahahaha

If your snake is healthy and that is an if. Then temps, 75 to 85F are wonderful. A range between them is best, but a healthy king will feed great at 75F it just won't grow properly(strong, great shape and fast) 85F great.

There are three things that are important, no four, 1. healthy snake, 2. humidity(better yet, not being dehydrated)3. temps(above) and 4. security.

Newbies often say hides, and use half round log things from a pet shop. In short, those things should be burned to the ground(and some of the shops that sell them) Snakes hide in tight sealed places where there is neutral humidity(50%), not wetting or drying) no air movement, as dry air passing around snakes drys them out. You said you are using aspen, which is fine, make such there is 4 to 6 inches deep, and have structures at down in the aspen to hide it. Kings snake cram themselves in the tightest hole they can find. That allows them security. Security=safe from predators.
I have raised a million cal kings, ok not a million, but it seems like it, on pinkies, so Bluerosy and I respectfully disagree on that one. And I also do not want. Set up a cage and if they eat right away, that tells you its all good, no reason to wait a week, what it does not eat and wait another week, again I respectfully disagree with that waiting thing.

Why I mentioned healthy snake, First, its not a good thing to feed a snake then ship it, if fact, it can be a horrible thing.
Also a foot long at this time of year is, as Bluerosy mentioned, problematic. I have some I hatched in august, and they are pushing 30 inches. ALso, I disagree, respectfully with Bluerosy, as cal kings can hatch at 12 to 14 inches. Hes used to tiny Fla. king mini neonates. hahahahahaha ASK MORE QUESTIONS. Thank you

every opinion is welcomed for sure, especially backed by so much experience

We have read what seems like every article on California Kingsnake care. And read a couple books too.
With everything that you have mentioned we are doing everything right yay us
For his hide we have a aquarium castle which he loves since he can hide and not be seen at all. We didn't think that the log looked like a hide at all. Its just a cover.

We've had him for 8 days and he explores a lot, doesn't hide too much which we like. When we reach down inside to pick him up, he doesn't hesitate or try to hide. He is perfectly comfortable with us, which is awesome.

Now for the journey to try to get him to eat.
Blurosy, and aaronbayer, we will heed your advice to entice him to eat.
and tomorrow hopefully there will be good news

well FR is the expert with more experience here.. but I still think one should not wait to feed a kingsnake after arrival via fed ex overnight. Jusy my opinion based on my experience shipping thousands... I found more problems with them adjusting that way if people wait. when people do wait and don't take my advice then the darn snakes don't want to eat.. so this is my advice to everybody with kingsnakes. As the kings are in a new location.. well, let me just say the best rule is if they eat, , let them eat, feed them! I don't think FR will disagree with that (?).

I just believe they settle in better with a full stomach or they can go off feed. Especially during winter months from transport from a mild to a more northern cold climates

Can you post a pic of the snake?.. I am curious as to the size of this snakes.. so use a coin or something for reference.. or just a pic in the hand for size reference would be best.

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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

I see your point on feeding a baby right away if they will eat and i've done it several times myself just to figure things out for myself instead of blindly following the rule of "let them settle for 1 to 2 weeks before feeding" that every pet store and most breeders say.

Where do you stand on if they don't eat right away though? Do you still suggest offering food daily or then wait and let them chill for a bit?

I ask because I've received some babies that are 100% good to go right out of the box, while others have been stressed/ wound up and really just refused for a while, but once the switch did flip they were worry free.

I realize my experience level pales in comparison to yours and Franks, but i've yet to see any rule/method/technique when keeping snakes thats fool-proof and guaranteed to work every time.

Where do you stand on if they don't eat right away though? Do you still suggest offering food daily or then wait and let them chill for a bit?

Patience is where I stand..lol!

That and you need to make sure if you are supporting the animals well.

You can read FR posts on that.

I do things a little different with neonates than FR.. I like to keep them in a small space so they can find the food and have plenty of humidity. I tend to control the babies more.. but that is because I can get them to eat and grow so fast they don't stay small but a couple months tops.

A deli cup works. But I use reptile basics baby racks.. Heat in the back and it has these long narrow trays 1 1/2" wide) and about 1 foot long.

link:
http://www.reptilebasics.com/interdesign-32-or-68-tub-rack

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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Where do you stand on if they don't eat right away though? Do you still suggest offering food daily or then wait and let them chill for a bit?

I normally get them to eat. Unless they are going into shed.

But I think we are talking about new born babies??.. because a king that has already eaten several times should not refuse food unless it is not being supported right. So jo, I don't wait for a king to decide to eat if it has growth.. they are not like Ball pythons which just shut down for no apparent reason. So if a kings does not eat there is something wrong with the husbandry . Or the snake is ill, emaciated or starved for long periods which makes for finicky feeders.

But with newborn neonates- sometimes just need time to develop an appetite from absorbing their yolk before their first meal. So when they first hatch they can go through one , two or three sheds before feeding..

some lines eat better than others.. some just want / need time..but they all end up eating.

But a king which has been started should eat.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

" Where do you stand on if they don't eat right away though? Do you still suggest offering food daily or then wait and let them chill for a bit?

I ask because I've received some babies that are 100% good to go right out of the box, while others have been stressed/ wound up and really just refused for a while, but once the switch did flip they were worry free. "

It is natural for a snake to not eat right away after it is shipped because it is STRESSED!
Kingsnake experts will agree as well.

If they don't eat right away, that is fine. Give them a week to settle in. There is no data supporting that a snake will not be a good eater if not fed right away.

I would not say that your experience pales with anyone, btw.

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Genesis 1:1

Do you really think it is fun to disrupt this forum?
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

I do agree with that, I think I said that. I might wait, oh an hour or so, hahahahahahahahahahaha.
Also this tells you a lot, if a new arrival feeds right off then stops, it indicates, not proves, that the animal had good husbandry and what it has now is not suitable.
In this case that it did not feed, indicates something is off from this point back. Shipping, previous husbandry, etc.

The fact that its only 12 inches, indicates it was not supported well.
The sad part is, the best recommendation is, have a vet do some stool samples. And a general physical. Why I say sad part is, the vet visit is normally many times the cost of the snake. Which prevents what is actually needed.
Simply put, Cal kings, are hardy and perform well in a range of husbandry and conditions. So when one is not feeding, or a problematic feeder, something is advanced and serious.

This snake is a baby, it was not born last Aug.
The breeder breeds year around.

This snake is a baby, it was not born last Aug.

It is highly unlikely that the snake was born after august. Most breeders dor a forced cycle and that causes the snakes to breed in spring and lay eggs 60 days later. August is also kinda a late date for eggs to hatch.. Most likely it was a June/July hatch date.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Without question you can do that, I hatched cal kings in every month of the year. But you did not include that information. We also mentioned what is normal. which means, if its not normal, its your task to explain that.
Now all you have to do is confirm that. Easily done, examine its umbilical scare. If it was hatched in the normal season, its well healed, if not been fed well. If recently hatched, you can tell by the scare, not well healed. Either case, you still have the problem of non feeding. Feeding is not magical, its normal and required to live, a base strong function of living animals. To not feed, means something is seriously wrong.

Without question you can do that, I hatched cal kings in every month of the year

I was going to get into explaining all that but it is unlikely because most colubrid breeders keep their snakes in a controlled envoronment.. meaning they turn off the heat for 3 months and do a forced cooling and do not allow for choices.

I get eggs that hatch and breed during winter. But that is because I keep my snakes in a cold room, with the heat on and feed them during winter. Most 99.999% percent of breeder I know don't do that because they don't think it is even possible- except a handful of breeders like you and myself!
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Sorry, we didn't mean to be snippy. There's a few other things going on besides the snake, so our own stress levels are kinda high. And sorry for the lack of info, we ordered him from a site called Big Apply reptilre supply, they're based out of NY, but have a shipping center out of FL. When they first shipped him to us he was probably about 8"-10". I have video and pictures on my phone, but we're having trouble loading pics onto here, so if someone wants to give me an email to send them to, I don't mind sending them. Also, he isn't skinny, dull colored or lathargic, he's very active, bright eyed and curious. Also, something we didn't really talk about is how we were heating the enclosure, we have it sitting on a electric stove top on low. JK, sorry, had to have a little fun, we had had a day/night heat lamp on, and after some researched realized we didn't have to have the bright basking lamp on, so we kept the red light on. We didn't have a heating pad. yesterday we bought a heating pad and a automatic thermostat to turn the pad off for a bit to keep it at a steady temp. We are using that only as of last night, with out heating lights as we didn't want to cook him. before we did that, the last couple days we noticed that he would dip himself into the bowl of water, even though we have been keeping the humidity at right around 50%. Again, sorry for being so vague.

Lucas

Hi Lucas, heres the deal, Please take no offense, we are trying to get to the problem. In doing so, its going to be hit and miss until the actual problem becomes apparent, or the snake dies, or eats.

These days its very hard as there is so much success and anybody and everybody says something. if you have to go to the internet to get ideas, you will get ideas or theories or methods until you cannot see strait. So how do you get past that? In my opinion, that's what you need to learn.
All this stuff brought up are methods to achieve something. For you to make it useful. After someone tells you something, all you have to do is ask, WHY? You see, onces you understand WHY, the "how" you attain that can be done in many ways.
About heating, with snakes, all you need is a small area, If your room or base temps are low seventies, room temp, to low eighties, all you need is one corner of the tank/cage heated. It can be done with lites, red lites, heat pads, stove tops etc. Some folks keep their snakes in a room where one wall gets full sun, and simply push the cages up to the wall, about the most natural way. Each part of the country can have its own methods and also you can fine tune methods.
The problem is, is your snake healthy, if its not, then normal methods are not going to help. If your snake is a normal healthy snake, then one or more of the methods commonly available will work. I already mentioned that feeding is a life supporting event, so not eating must have strong reason. Reptiles can appear healthy and then die, in most cases, its from organ damage. About dealers, its nothing against them, its about numbers, the bigger then are, the higher a change of a problem. And problems can occur with anyone. So thinking its so and so, so its all good. Well, its not good as your animal is not feeding. You have to figure out why. That's all we are concerned with. Be like a reporter, what, why, where, when and how. hahahahahahahahahaha Best of luck

No offense taken, we are still learning and have much to learn as this is our first snake. And I aggree with you, it's just like people, they seem fine on the outside, but it's hard to tell what's going on on the inside, which is why I wanted to send someone my pictures and videos, since y'all might be able to get a little bit of a better picture.

I will get right to the point about the lighting.. GET RID OF IT!

It will dry our your snake.. maybe the problem he is not eating and cruising. Also him soaking or "dipping" in water is a sign. In nature Kinsnakes don't always have access to water and they don't drink. They keep hydrated by choosing moist/humid places.

Use just under-tank heat source (or back heat).. This allows the snakes to choose cold or hot temperatures depending on what it wants and needs to either conserve calories or digest food.

Neonates dehydrate very easily and using a heat lamp or any type of overhead heat source is detrimental! Don't listen to any pet shop employee who is pushing these.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Hey Lucas, check the email that you have connected with your log in. People might have sent you a PM to get pics and it might have gone to spam.

Big Apple reptile supply is a broker which gets snakes from all over the country for resale. They themselves probably know very little about your snake or when it hatched.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

have y'all ever fed them anything other then mice/rats? Like geckos, other snakes ect. Just curious. Cause I'm sure in the wild, they don't just hatch near a mouse den that is willing to give up so babies. haha

Lucas

P.S I'm going to try to put a pic of him up on this post, let's see if it works. Nope. doesn't seem to work. I/we probably aren't doing something right. I've added the right syntax, or put it in the URL part, but it won't come up. I'll try again later.

They eat mice, not so much house mice, lizards, snakes, birds, eggs mostly herp eggs.
Some populations are dead on snake feeders, others not.

But then, if you have a chicken coup, they support mice by the large lots and kings will take those mice with no hesitation.

The point is, a healthy king eats mice with no trickery. Its on the main nenu. Some types like hognose, eat mice in captivity, but mostly not in nature. Not that they don't, mice are just not on the main menu.

Its up to you, but you will find, mice work the best. That is, they produce the best results.

I raised some kings on lizards back in the day, I just got real tired to taking hundreds of animals out of nature. At least mice come out of a box. not sure that's a great rationalization.

I didn't mean as a main meal, I just meant as like treats or something if we find some. we will keep with the mice though.

Lucas

This is a picture of our Albino Banana California Kingsnake