Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am not with Bluerosy on the pinky thing. Pinkies are fine, but he's right also, if healthy, get them going to each step as fast as possible. The only longterm problem with pinkies is, lack of fur(roughage)

A healthy snake can indeed get past the pinky stage quickly and on to fuzzies etc. But there is nothing wrong with pinkies. I have a feeling by now a million colubrids have been started on pinkies successfully.

If we use the example below, the hybrid king, the item consumed is not large, its a medium sized prey item for that size snake. It indeed could consume an item twice that size. One two or three times that size would be considered large to huge. A tiny pinky would be considered a small item.

The health, temps, and humidity, support what sized prey items snakes can successfully consume.

The last couple of years, I have been testing a method of feeding I developed with varanids, that is, keeping food available at all times(most times, as I sometimes forget) The result so far, some eat as much as they can, some don't. Some eat more often and smaller meals. Either way, they do extremely well when they can eat when they want.
So pinkies, they are fine, but like Bluerosy does, lets move this train down the tracks to larger items, no need for max sized items, just normal sized for their size potential.

Pretty much exactly how I feel. Though I havet tried keeping food available at all times (don't see anything wrong with it, just havent tried it).

The first 10 years or so I kept snakes I fed them the generic pet store book way... 1-2 pinkies/fuzzies twice a week and 1 mouse/rat once a week. The snakes grew, but not at an impressive rate and they never attained the level of strength and muscularity that I noticed in a few other captive animals and some wild snakes I came across. I had also picked up some bit of nonsense from someone that had me thinking smaller meals were better as they were easier to digest... blah.

once I upped the size of prey (big enough to leave a bulge that stretched the skin a little) and offered food again around the time said buldge begain to dissappear I noticed the snakes growing faster and ending up more muscular looking.

I suppose I still feed "full grown" adults on a somewhat moderate basis compared to some others, but I offer neonates-yearlings basically all they want and the results are fantastic. I had a pair of black milks go from hatchilings to over 4' by the 18 month mark by eating 2 rodents every 3-4 days. now as adults at 2.5 years old and 5.5ish' long they are getting 2 small rats every time the gut buldge goes away (10-15 days).

Well we are talking about kingsnakes here.. and specifically Florida kings for me..

I am sure that it is fun feeding kingsnakes everyday like FR.. but I am sure most of us can't afford or have to few mice in our colony to make this feasible.. If I recall he also feeds his overstock mice to his "outdoor" wild snakes. Which is also a blast of you live where he does.

the way I look at it.. If they can get around the size of a new large fuzzy, crew cut, hopper, small mouse ect. Then you know they will always be able to eat that size and you learned what size your snake can and cannot eat. It ois not detrimental to the snake in trying to eat a large prey item and ...no...they will not choke on it.. RSRS.

Also I love the growth spurts smaller kings get from more mature mice that what we normally think is the correct size.

If you offer a mouse and the snake cannot quiet get it down.. No harm and no fowl to the snake, right? And the keeper has learned some valuable info. Next thing is throw something in a bit smaller..but that usually doesn't happen as most floks do not venture to far out of the realm of possibilities.

Most people don't feed to large.. I think that they are just not very confident in what their kingsnake can get down until they start experimenting and trying new things.. (again choices).
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

[Aaron this posts were not directed at you or FR.. Just something for others to think about and perhaps debate..]

A Florida king will try to eat a water snake almost twice it size in the wild.. OR, baby rabbits, chipmunks or whatever they come upon.. I think trying to eat to large a size food items is a more common occurance than we think... They just give up, spit out and move on.

learn to experiment!!(not FR! he experimented enough already).. Since this does not hurt the snake.. and the benefits outweigh any costs (actually will save $ on feeding tons of pinkies) if you think about it, you could already be feeding a large mouse in a short time span and be looking forward to breeding instead of feeding pinkies for another year or two. Just because I just don't think many people will feed multiple pinkies to a sub adult every single day.

So win win situation for both the keeper and the kept.
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

I know, You stated pinkies have no nutritional value, when the fact is, they do. They are lacking roughage and mass.

In most cases, with healthy hatchlings, one or two pink feedings then move on to larger items, is good. We agree with that. As you mentioned, snakes are capable of consuming giant prey items, so what you are talking about is not actually large prey items, just something in the middle or normal.

Your right about the one pinkie twice a week, that has nothing to do with anything, at least not anything about the snake. Maybe a pinkie a day for a week, then lets get with it.

So yea, we agree other then the nutritional value of pinks, remember, they are full of mothers milk, which is a superfood.

I don't know if we disagree.. I just believe by forcing the size of the meal rather than multiple pinkies will give the snake more of a growth spurt..that is just my practical experience talking.

I mean, look at the roughage in a sceloperous fence lizards...talk tbout roughage..that is what they would eat in the wild.. and They eat snakes. All full of scales,ribs- more calcium and protein. All seemingly hard to digest and does not fit into the stomach at one time.

So maybe it is not about the pinkies "usable" protein (or PER ratio-protein effeciency ratio)but rather a more balanced diet of mature animals that offers something we don't understand.

Think of eggs whites.. egg white protein is about the best you will get for PER ratio.. But if you eat them you will dry up and blow away on a diet of eggs whites.. EAT SOME STEAK AND POTATOES by gosh! You know what I mean! HA HA HA HA!

What I have experienced is these kings grow faster and healthier by upping the size of the mouse. That is the message I am trying to send (not confuse newbies) that feeding s anskae more and more often in captivity will make a healthier captive. What I see instead is people still feeding fuzzies to a 1 year old snake while mine are already breeding.

Maybe it is that larger mice have more calcium, muscle, fat or other nutritional values from the heart intestine ect. I don't know.. I just know it is best to get them off the pinkies as most will not feed as many pinkies as you would FR. That is a LOT of eggs whites! LOL!
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

I as responding to this about superfood:

So yea, we agree other then the nutritional value of pinks, remember, they are full of mothers milk, which is a superfood.

Eggs whites baby!
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

So we got it down to, we agree, its not about nutritional value. At least per gram. And lets just say, its not magic. So what is it. Its easy, simple mass, a lot of good stuff is better then less of the same good stuff.

Also its about context, In another post I mentioned that cal kings can hatch at 14 inches, no pinkies for those, they are already too large. Some little dwarfy ones hatch out at under 8 inches. Ok, maybe a couple of pinks then move up.

The real problem is how people think, not how animals work. We budget. Not just with money, but with numbers. Buy ten pinks, so two for each of my five snakes. You know, they have each snake in its own cage. But if they kept them in the same cage, 6 of those pinks would go to one snake, so you put in more until every one gets some. Then one grows faster then the rest, so you put in enough that all have their fill. With the exception of you and I, folks don't do that.
Folks also think of stages of life, in periods of time. So its a baby for six months, or longer, then its a youngster. Then a young adult etc. Except if conditions are right, they move up to young adult, in a few months.

So yes, its more about people patterns then animal patterns, as animals, babies are the best of the best prey item and you do not want to stay a baby for long. So a natural defense is, grow quickly and lower the number of species that eat you. Cheers

You mention them trying to eat very large prey... just wanted to toss in a few things i've seen in the field that back this up.

I've seen an approx 5' western coachwhip trying to consume a fully grown cottontail rabbit... something that it couldnt possibly get down.

I've seen a young 2-2.5' bullsnake trying to eat a trapped quail... again something it couldnt possibly get down.

and lastly I stumbled upon a great plains rat that had eaten something (not sure what it was... rat maybe) that was so large the snake could barely crawl through the dirt. The stretched out buldge didn't look possible, but somehow it was in there. reminded me of the pics of af rocks eating antelope.

Which brings up a couple of realistic points. First, yes snakes can eat huge meals in nature. That leads to a question, what becomes of them. Do they digest it and live? Die? is it a good thing or bad thing? The reality is 99% of what snakes feed on in nature is small. In many cases, snakes seem to be nest robbers.

More importantly, In most cases in captivity, they reguirg large meals, as the supporting conditions are not sufficient to successfully process huge meals.

Also, this "giant food items" is academic to keeping as, its not about what sized item they eat, its how well the individual progresses. Its the result that's important, I know of no one who fed the Giant meals, that had impressive results.

There are many many ways to look at this. As a youth, I found a 6 1/2 foot coastal gophersnake hit on the road, just hit, still almost normal looking. It later died, so I cut it open. It had recently consumed an adult rock squirrel. The snake was so large, it was not that obvious of a bulge.

What was interesting to me was, The snakes stomach was only about six inches long and only engulfed the head and neck of the squirrel. This observation was the start of a long story of better husbandry.
My new approach was to feed prey items that fit inside the snakes stomach, and repeat as soon as the "lump" was broken down.

For the time, which is the reality, My results were maybe 100 times better then the peers of the time.
Then as I gained realistic experience, I learned that temp management was also important, in fact, very important. This knowledge added a complexity to the situation. Which means, temps are important in their ability to process food.
Then I learned that humidity is also a key element. All these are easy and harmless to test in captivity. Humidity also effects how prey is processed.
The point I am making is, prey size, is directly related to all the above and more. So what does that mean.

To talk about one is a bit academic, its not all, its part. While the stomach is small, in certain conditions, digestion is mammal fast, that is, they can digest prey and pass it that day or the next. Then add the fact that wild snakes utilize a range of temps based on prey size. Small prey they choose low temps. large prey, higher temps and huge prey, really high temps. But the key is, the elevated temps are only for key periods of digestion. High temps can be considered break down temps, That is, they only use them long enough to start the process then seek lower temps to continue and even lower to conserve.
In the end, its about results, all the above taken out of context is clutter. To grow quickly is the test. Any questions?

This information is facinating.

Since our king isn't eating pinkies (though he has only ever had pinkies) I decided to reach into his wild instinct side.
I caught a small gecko and placed it in his terranium.
We have been leaving our snake alone so that the insecure feeling will not be a factor in him not eating.
we have reached optimal temp condition and its very consitant now.
I noticed a couple days ago the gecko is gone, just vanished.
The gecko, tho small, had a head twice (or a bit more) bigger than our king's head. Is it possible that he ate the lizard?
i've been looking around the house for a lizard and watching my cats as they love catching lizards and nothing.
its been a few days since i really looked at our king and i didn't notice a bulge last night. but geckos are soft and squishy so i'm assuming after a couple days there would be no bulge....
is it possible that he ate it???

Be careful with that as he may imprint on lizards and want only lizards.

Then he will refuse mice even more. So I would not start down that road.

So what you can try is wash the pinky and then get the lizard scent on it.

When will you post a pic?
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Is it possible he ate it tho?

We have tried posting a pic but having a bit of a hard time :/
Will keep trying though.

I have a friend that is very successful breeding kings and milks and he gave me some info on feeding pink rats to his snakes rather than feeding them fuzzy or small mice. He also continues to feed rats that are equal to the size of a mouse that the snake can handle . I did some research on the pinkies because I was always told that they are mostly water and not a good source of nutrition. A pink rat,(and I would assume mouse)has a much higher serum protein than an adult. this is the protein in the blood globulin / albumin that translates to a higher caloric intake and fat for the snake. The reason is that the serum proteins are produced by the liver and a pink rat/mouse doesnt yet have the benefit of a full function liver. The pinky has a higher total serum protein to fight off infection and it is increased through the mothers milk. I now use this info and as soon as a snake is able to take a pink rat, I offer them. you wouldn't believe the growth that seems to happen almost over night.

please understand this, the information your talking about is academic, not of practical relevance; of only theoretical interest.

synonyms: theoretical, conceptual, notional, philosophical, hypothetical, speculative, conjectural, suppositional.
Not what is wrong or right. Whats fun about keeping is, its not academic(same definition as above) Its applied. You do something the animal responds. The response is the result.

With that in mind, Its so easy to test(play with) I have fed pink rats, mice, etc. And the actual results are similar. The method of husbandry is far more responsible for how fast or slow they grow. I will race you or your friend any day with kings started on pinkies then fed mice. And if you win, we will both be winners because both our results would be great.
The minute differences in nutritional content can be made up for, or lost, with the application of one degree of heat. Or a few percentage points of humidity. Or lack of security. This is where the race is won and lost.

The same goes for Bluerosy and larger vs. smaller. I would race him anyday and win or we would both win. The reason is, He feeds one midsized prey item and I will have a handful of small ones. There are no rules that say, I cannot do that.
The point of this is, its not about one pinky or a fuzzie or pink rat, its about what any or all those items produce in the way of progress, as in, growth, reproduction, and longevity.

So lets get it on, Bring your friend, bring Bluerosy, LETS RACE. Lets get with it. Throw it down, RACE. hahahahahahahahaha The good part is, if we race, the snakes win. Best wishes

I was quite amazed this year when I bought an expensive male Ball python baby (I know, I broke down and joined the masses). He weighed 70 grams and in two months I had him at 540 grams. It bred at that weight and now stopped eating for a few months and is back down to 470 but still breeding.

I was just amazed how much these can take and I guess I pushed it more than most that have tried..

So are we racing any snake or just certain species? LOL!
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Another oddity, snakes have scent glands, hmmmmmmmmmm what are they for?
FR

Lets race sand boas, We have a head start, obtained a pair in Oct at 5 inches, and they are now adults, male about 20" the female 26".

Or maybe tantilla, now that would be a race. It would be a short race.

Wait, tantilla eat ant larva, that would suck. Ok, how about hog nose. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I hope to hatch my own line of Mexican hog axanthics this year. I went out and found 2.3 axanthics.

That would be good, but those things are a pain. How about. monitors, hehehehehehehehehehehehe