Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay, so the debate goes on about whether we should feed puppies puppy food or start them off with adult food. There are arguments both ways, but basically, we don't want our large breed dogs to grow so fast that their bones won't hold up. So, if one decides to feed his puppy adult food, how much? Do we go by the guidelines on the bag (which is intended for adult dogs)? Or do we go by the guidelines on the puppy bag, but use the adult food? Or somewhere in between?

>>Okay, so the debate goes on about whether we should feed puppies puppy food or start them off with adult food. There are arguments both ways, but basically, we don't want our large breed dogs to grow so fast that their bones won't hold up. So, if one decides to feed his puppy adult food, how much? Do we go by the guidelines on the bag (which is intended for adult dogs)? Or do we go by the guidelines on the puppy bag, but use the adult food? Or somewhere in between?

My opinion is use neither as a guide. Dog food companies want you to buy dog food - at least the commercial (non-premium) ones do. They don't care if your dogs become obese or overgrow their bone structure. Good lord, if I had fed mine by the guidelines, I would have dogs I could roll across the floor.

I think, with pups, you should feed perhaps 1/2 a cup per feeding about 3 to four times a day. Take up what isn't finished within 5-15 minutes, depending on how quick or slow your pup is at eating. If you see your dog gaining too much on this, cut back. Many of the responsible breeders on my various boards feed adult food almost right away, simply softening with warm water. Those who feed a puppy mix, stop at either 3 or six months, depending on how they feel. Breeding and raising pups is as much an art as a science, so adjustments can and should be made.

Next?
-----
Tasha

The whole "puppy food" "adult food" thing is a result of the "nutrition in a sack" mentality.

I think an interesting and useful question to ask is, are there differences between the diets of young growing wolves and adult wolves?

Little wolf puppies get very rich meaty diets, plus mother's milk *FAR LONGER THAN MOST BREEDERS LET THEIR PUPPIES NURSE*. I am adamantly opposed to forced weaning, or placing puppies in their new homes while they are still nursing, even if it's just once a day.

But once those pups are out there with the rest of the pack, they tend to get the leftovers and also some small prey, like rodents and bugs, that adult wolves rarely bother with (Farley Mowat's fantasies notwithstanding). When they are full adults, what they eat and how much calcium they consume will vary depending on the ranking in the pack, local conditions, time of year, etc.

I wean babies onto a little raw meat, and let them nurse as long as mama has milk for them, usually until 11-12 weeks of age. Then I put them onto a "growth" diet that has worked extremely well for me, a slightly modified version of "Growth Diet C" from Richard Pitcairn DVM PhD. I will paste it at the end of this message. I also give them raw chicken necks to gnaw on, and some marrow bones ONLY AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THEIR BABY TEETH. I find that marrow bones can wear down adult teeth.

As they grow up, I tend to move them more toward an adult diet, which includes some whole prey meals, and is based more on a so-called "Bones and Raw Foods" model than a strict recipe such as Pitcairn's. However, I have also fed dogs Pitcairn recipes - GROWTH RECIPES - their whole lives, with excellent results. I even feed some of my dogs Pitcairn's cat recipes. The adult diets are not lower in protein or fat than the "growth" diets, in fact they may be higher at times. They are very varied diets based on fresh, whole foods. I don't use kibble at all.

I believe calcium must be moderate in the growing canine diet, and Pitcairn shares this belief.

Adult diets that are high in starchy carbs, whether homemade or processed, are IMO not good for dogs and should be avoided.

Here is the basic recipe for the diet I have always used and always with great success, for puppies and for mom while nursing.

Growth Diet C

1 cup sweet potatoes, cooked
2 cups (1 lb) chuck, chicken or turkey with skin, or lamb
1 cup low fat cottage cheese or yogurt
2400 mgs of calcium (I will give the bone meal* amount below)
2 Tblsp Healthy Powder (recipe given below)
1 Tblsp nutritional yeast
2 Tblsp flax seed oil
2 tsp cod liver oil
400 IUs vitamin E (poke capsule with pin and squeeze in)
10 mgs iron (optional but I would use it)
1000 mgs taurine (open capsule and sprinkle it over food, also optional)

Healthy Powder

This is the recipe for Pitcairn's Healthy Powder; you can also use any good dog multi vitamin or powder such as Missing Link, but it's cheapest to buy these ingredients at the health food store and make your own:

2 cups nutritional yeast
1 cup lecithin granules
1/4 cup kelp powder
bone meal* amount below
keep refrigerated

Other easy recipes that can be mixed with kibble and are BALANCED; these can be fed to puppies with their puppy kibble, or to adults lifelong.

Fresh Meat Supplement for Dog Kibble

4 tsp flax seed oil
4 tsp Healthy Powder
bone meal* amount below, or 1100 mgs calcium
1 tsp cold liver oil
1 pound chuck, chicken, turkey, lamb

Yields a bit more than 2 cups. Feed 1/4 cup of mixture for every cup of kibble.

Cottage Cheese Supplement for Dog Kibble

2 tsp flax seed oil
2 tsp Healthy Powder
1/2 tsp bone meal* or 300 mgs calcium... (be sure you are not using cottage cheese with extra calcium added)
1-2 tsp cod liver oil (if feeding eggs in diet, go with the 1 tsp)
3/4 cup whole cottage cheese (not nonfat or low fat)

Enough to supplement 2-3 cups kibble.

Fresh Egg Supplement for Dog Kibble

1 tsp flax seed oil
1 tsp Healthy Powder
1/3 tsp bone meal* or 200 mgs calcium
200 IUs vitamin E
2 eggs

He does not give an amount of kibble that this will supplement.

* Bone Meal

Amounts of bone meal vary depending on brand. Here are the amounts for commonly available brands:

Growth Diet C
KAL brand: 1.6 tsp
Solid Gold brand: 1.8 tsp (available at pet supply stores, not health food stores)
NOW brand: 4.8 tsp
Solgar brand: 3.4 tsp

Healthy Powder
KAL brand: 6 tsp
Solid Gold brand: 6.6 tsp
NOW brand: 18 tsp
Solgar brand: 12.6 tsp

Meat Recipe
KAL brand: 0.8 tsp
Solid Gold brand: 0.8 tsp
NOW brand: 2.3 tsp
Solgar brand: 1.6 tsp

Egg Recipe
KAL brand: 0.1 tsp
Solid Gold brand: 0.2 tsp
NOW brand: 0.4 tsp
Solgar brand: 0.3 tsp

Cottage Cheese Recipe
KAL brand: 0.1 tsp
Solid Gold brand: 0.1 tsp
NOW brand: 0.4 tsp
Solgar brand: 0.3 tsp

-----
Christie Keith
Caber Feidh Scottish Deerhounds
Holistic Husbandry since 1986
www.caberfeidh.com/