Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi again people. I don't know if you remember us but I posted on the old forum about the possibility of starting agility with my collie x GSD Jazmin. I also asked about the likelihood of her being able to practice if she turned out to have hip problems. Well turns out her hopes have been dashed, she is dysplastic, in both hips, and quite badly for such a young dog. She was 2 weeks shy of her 1st birthday when she was X-rayed and was described as being moderately dysplastic. Both the vets and myself didn't think it was as bad as that but they showed me the x-rays for myself and now I know what the signs and symptoms are then it is making sense. For now we are just treating her with painkillers when she needs them, diet, glucosamine, etc and modified exercise. We seem to be managing it quite well. I suppose it helps when youi also have an old boy who is arthritic! No stranger to these orthapedic problems.

Anyway, I have a few questions. First off, do you think that she will be able to do ANY of the agility activities in her present condition? I will be consulting her vet before we do anything but I wanted to ask some people who are experienced in what agility requires of a dog. I'm not expecting to compete with her but I think I already mentioned that she is a dog who needs a job to do. Second, if she has surgery on her hips, would she be able to do most of the agility activities? And finally, if our hopes are indeed blown, are there any other sports we could do?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I remember Jazmin and I'm sorry to hear about her hips. I think your question is very difficult to answer without knowing exactly how bad her hips are. Our 12 year old lab is not able to do agility any more other than tunnels, but she is severly displastic. And we were told when she was diagnosed, that jumping may hasten the process. I would look for a vet who is familiar with canine sports and talk to that person. I think this would be better than a "regular" vet. Just like if you were an athlete with a problem, you'd probably consult a sports medicine doctor and not just a general practioner. You also will need to know what her front assembly looks like - sooo important for jumping.

Now having said all that, NADAC does offer a class with just tunnels and obviously Jazmin could do that. There is also Touch-n-Go which is just contacts (and tunnels?). Depending, she might can do that. Depending on how bad her hips are, I'd stay away from jumps and weaves. If she can do some jumping, you can compete at a lower jump height in NADAC. I'd stay away from USDAA and since she's a mix AKC is out.

Other sports - I have no idea. The jump height for flyball is based on the smallest team member - usually a Jack Russell. That might be an option. Maybe herding? Maybe obedience, but there again you have to do jumps in the upper levels. I think if you could find some sort of water activity that would be ideal! I know there's a water dog program, but not sure what's involved or where to find more information. (Kind of a moot point with basenjis. LOL)

Good luck and please keep us updated!

I haven't tried it, but tracking maybe just what you are looking for. Looks like fun and it would be useful!

Also, depending on her temperment, try doing some therapy work. Both my basenjis visit nursing homes, etc.

Thank you both for the suggestions. We have actually started doing a bit of tracker training but we live in Scotland and the weather hasn't been too great lately!

I will look up those various sorts of agility and ask the vet about them. She can still run and jump of her own accord but obviously she can't get too much of it. She doesn't really have the temperament to be a therapy dog. I did some of that with my other dog Tebeau. He was an obediance champ and is soooooooo laid back. Jazmin seems to be the complete opposite. She's quite hyperactive and nervy at times but a good worker. She has got bored with obediance so we are looking for different things to try. I think she would love flyball but we are still working on actually bringing the ball back!

Hmmm, well if you're in Scotland, I don't know about the rules, regulations and classes offered there. NADAC is North American Dog Agility Club, so I doubt it is offered there. However, I know at least here in the States, there are all sorts of agility "games" sprouting up all the time. In fact, there's a JFF (just for fun) agility "group" starting here in June. I'm not sure how big that type of thing is in your area. It would be worth looking into, but I really have no idea.

I spent a Jr semester in Stirling and just loved Scotland. Luck you!

Keep us informed.

You went to Stirling Uni?! That's where I go! What did you study?

I am probably going to take Jazmin to an agility club and get her to do what she can. Not planning to compete with her but she needs something to do.

Well, I just went there for a semester so I only took 3 classes and this was quite a few years ago. I took a history class, High Renaissance, and some sort of lit class. I remember the dorm I stayed in took me forever to figure it out. Lots of twists and turns, but I had a lovely view of that little castle on campus right outside my window. Lovely place!

Yeah it is a beautiful campus, but the halls aren't up to much. I'm lucky I saty close enough to still live at home. I did English last semester, hated it, so now I do sociology instead!

I have a dog that also has orthapedic problems and although I can not speak for your own situation, we do train agility once a week and "practice" some of the moves at home (like "wait" at the bottom of stairs and such). We are under a close watchful eye of our vet though. I go in every other month for a "tune-up" and assessment to see if she is working too hard. We don't train when it's wet out at all (fear of slipping). We just recently hit full heights on obsticles and we don't practice jumps at full height at all. I have an extremely athletic dog that would run until her legs locked- she'd still probably try even then. We stretch before "working a course" and she gets a message after. This has been allowing us to entertain the though of competition at the novice levels. Each dog has it's own limits. It's very hard when a young dog "needs a job" and there's a sport it shouldn't do due to physical limitations. If you are smart about it, you can probably make it work for a while. Do course outside (footing is easier on the dog)and be smart about it. If your dog "looks stiff" or seems "off." Don't train. It's not worth it. It is fun to try. I have a friend who runs her dog in "puppy agility" where all the obsticles are extremely low. Her dog is much older, but she's in it for fun and they let her join. So, there might be options out there for you in agility. Flexibility is what you should hope for in a group that you join.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita (the shiba inu), Adi (rescue tabby cat), and all the reptiles

Chelle-

Great advice! I'd like to add that when you get to the upper levels, make sure the angles to the jumps (especially the doubles and triples) and A-frame are straight on and not too angled. I know this was important when DH was still running the lab. She'd try her heart out, but there was no way she could do a jump at an angle.

Is it the Shiba who has bad hips? Is displasia a "normal" problem with them? I think we've had this conversation before, but I really like the Shibas. Someone once told me they were "basenjis in drag." Of course, it made me like them even more. Are you competing? Preferred AKC? NADAC?

Yeah, my shiba girl is only graded "fair" in her hips, it's her knees that are completely shot- 4 surgeries so she wouldn't be crippled by age 3. Luxating patellas are a VERY common shiba trait and dysplasia is starting to creep into the breed as well. Before the surgeries she was rated a 4 on her left knee and a 5 on her right (a scale of 1 to 5 where 5 is the worst). She's now at a 1 on each leg. Yet, we do need to be careful. We are going to do our first match in the fall (provided my vet doesn't pull us). We will probably never do AKC Jumpers with Weaves. AKC Preferred Novice is probably as far as we will ever go. Being that she's a shiba- it will take us a while to get beyond that anyway. Haven't decided about any other organizations yet. The group I train with is mostly AKC oriented, but I hear there's one that has lower jump heights as well. We need to do something to keep her weight down. Can't run long distances on concrete. Walks only take you so far (and I am only able to go out for about an hour a day with my schedule). Dog parks don't work for us for many reasons, but the biggest being dogs slamming into her and throwing her knees out. She gets a bit crabby about that. So, it's one of our best options. "Controlled chaos" my vet calls it. She works her mind and body. I can see where "odd angles" to jumps and obsticles would be a problem. I'll have to keep that in mind. I know my vet didn't like the idea of flyball because of that high speed twist at the end. I like the idea of tacking though if we do get pulled from this. It would "work the brain" as well. I might have to start checkign into that.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita (the shiba inu), Adi (rescue tabby cat), and all the reptiles

>>Yeah, my shiba girl is only graded "fair" in her hips, it's her knees that are completely shot- 4 surgeries so she wouldn't be crippled by age 3. Luxating patellas are a VERY common shiba trait and dysplasia is starting to creep into the breed as well. Before the surgeries she was rated a 4 on her left knee and a 5 on her right (a scale of 1 to 5 where 5 is the worst). She's now at a 1 on each leg. Yet, we do need to be careful. We are going to do our first match in the fall (provided my vet doesn't pull us). We will probably never do AKC Jumpers with Weaves. AKC Preferred Novice is probably as far as we will ever go. Being that she's a shiba- it will take us a while to get beyond that anyway. Haven't decided about any other organizations yet. The group I train with is mostly AKC oriented, but I hear there's one that has lower jump heights as well. We need to do something to keep her weight down. Can't run long distances on concrete. Walks only take you so far (and I am only able to go out for about an hour a day with my schedule). Dog parks don't work for us for many reasons, but the biggest being dogs slamming into her and throwing her knees out. She gets a bit crabby about that. So, it's one of our best options. "Controlled chaos" my vet calls it. She works her mind and body. I can see where "odd angles" to jumps and obsticles would be a problem. I'll have to keep that in mind. I know my vet didn't like the idea of flyball because of that high speed twist at the end. I like the idea of tacking though if we do get pulled from this. It would "work the brain" as well. I might have to start checkign into that.
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>>Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita (the shiba inu), Adi (rescue tabby cat), and all the reptiles

Wow! These are some great posts! Just goes to show that dogs can do just about anything! With love and attention from their humans they are so willing to please! I also belong to an agility club and the beauty of agility is that "any" breed or dog can do it. We have a dog belonging to our group that has a missing front leg! He doesn't compete but it sure is awesome to see him out practicing with his human companion
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PHRiot@PetHobbyist.com

"Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity
a human has to choose a relative!"

Author Unknown

Chelle-

I think you should be okay with AKC Novice std as far as angled jumps. Most of the AKC nov std courses are set up with pretty straight lines to the next obstacle. I think you could do the same jump height with NADAC and those courses are a lot of fun. Becareful about the footing. I did a show at an indoor soccer field and the footing was very "grabby" and there were a few humans that blew out knees. Horse barns, grass and soft dirt should be okay.

Sorry to hear about these problems in the Shiba, but thanks for the heads up. I don't think I'll be trading in my basenjis anytime soon (ask me again after our next agility event gg), but I really like the Shibas.

Your posts always make me giggle. Your afinity for the shiba is similar to my afinity with the besengi. We've discussed this before, I had considered long and hard before finally picking the shiba over a besengi. Some days I don't know which is better. I'll decide after my first trial this fall. You know what's sad, I watched another shiba owner this weekend run her dog in Open. We both have the same prayers- "Please stay in the ring." She was estatic when her dog crossed the finish line and she could get a leash back on him. I'm the same way. I don't recall if she qualified or not. She didn't care. Her dog didn't leave the course. It's funny how each breed has it's own set of "obsticles" to overcome. Some of ours just aren't the actual obsticles themselves.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita (the shiba inu), Adi (rescue tabby cat), and all the reptiles

Hey, I'm familiar with the please-stay-in-the-ring prayer. Of course when they don't I threaten to make curlytail soup. My real problem is the tri (aka "trying" basenji. He's a bit of a nut case, but if I can ever get his brain engaged, he's going to be really good. Lots of speed and has a ton of fun! I'm thinking there's someing in the tri gene that make them that way. Basenji people will tell you "tris are just different". My brindle boy is usually a wonder dog. (www.turn.to/digital) I'd love to have another like him. Is your shiba a tri?

My first basenji was a red and white (tri factor) female and smarter than anything. She learned the teeter by watching other dogs do it and was up and over it before I could help her. Never phased her, just sat at the bottom and waited for her treat. Of course she had LOTS of issues so I couldn't compete with her. I'd tell her "If only you could use your powers for good."

...my girl could be a honorary "tri," although technically she's not. She's so intelligent it amazes me. We ran a course once where they had a tunnel right next to the A-Frame. The first trip through I got ahead of her and blocked the a-frame entrance with my body so she'd go through the tunnel (which was the idea). Second time through I didn't beat her there, I didn't even get the word out, she just knew the course after only one time through and took the tunnel automatically. The instructor was shocked to say the least- especially since she was not only thinking, she was thinking correctly and apparently wanted to do it correctly. Normally if I'm not "coaching" her the whole way she "assumes" courses and actually for a shiba the A-frame is much more fun (stop at the top and survey your land mentality).

I too wish she'd learn to use her intelligence for good and not evil. Most of the time she's awesome, but she gets this "wild look in her eye" and there's not a thing I can do about it. "Spirit" is what my vet calls it. There are days I could use a bit less "spirit" but I think that's what I love about her as well. There's a challenge to running a breed that isn't quite "programed for this work." Still, we shall see in the fall how well this works. I'm going to start on an indoor course though just to have less distractions- I think.

"Curly tail soup" huh? I think I'm going to have to remember that threat. Good luck at your next trial. Besengis never cease to amaze me on what tehy are capable of doing when you finally figure out what "turns them on."
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita (the shiba inu), Adi (rescue tabby cat), and all the reptiles

Hi again guys, been enthralled with your thread! Seems like Jazmin may be able to do SOME agility then. But like some of your dogs it seems, she does have some off-putting habits, more of which later!

She started on glucosamine, etc supplements about 4 months ago and I am beginning to notice an improvement in her general character, we also seem to be keeping any pain under control fairly well now so I am confident I can tailor a programme of agility to suit her, as you all have done.

I wanted to ask though, when some of you say your dogs have "spirit" or cannot compete because of certain behavioral issues, what are we talking about? Jazmin is quite a nervous dog at times but when frightened she is apt to fight rather than run. In the group setting with other dogs and people she is normally very good but she still can be unpredictable. She is slowly getting better tho, and I was wondering if it is possible for a dog to run agility with a muzzle or light line on their collar? I have a basket-type muzzle for her and she can pant, drink and eat through it so it is very comfortable. I also think agility work and having a job would greatly improve her behavioral problems but obviously do not want to put anyone at risk. I very much doubt any harm would come to them but I am being cautious.

That's a tough one to answer. Your dog's "nervousness" around other dogs is probably due to her dysplasia. So, if she's having a particularily rough day (ie. barometric pressure is high and a storm is coming in) she will probably be more irritable than on other days. This descision would have to be determined by the school you go to. We aren't able to run the dogs in gentle leaders or with anythign but a falt buckle collar wihtout tags on them. If they fall it could get caught on something. Muzzle might pose a similar risk. I would think it depends how competitive the school you are going to is in the sport. Mine is highly competitive, and safety is of the utmost importance. We are "allowed" to stay because Kita has proven herself reliable. They would not hesitate to throw us out if I didn't keep her under control. My friend's class is a lot different, but the focus is for fun not competition. I stay on the more competitive stuff because my dog needs to be challenged and It's working. If there comes a time when it isn't. We will pull out and possible go to the other school or drop it and practice in the back yard. There's a lot of agility stuff you can do without a formal class. Jumps are easy to make, but tunnels you can find at toy stores and there are booksthat show you how to make cheap agility equipment out of PVP pipes. Anyway- I wish you the best i nwhatever you decide.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita (the shiba inu), Adi (rescue tabby cat), and all the reptiles

My first basenji, the one with behavior issues, had a multitude of issues, but I did do backyard agility with her. She was not reliable off lead, she had issues with other dogs, she had issues with people she did not know and she was about 8 years when I started this with her. In all honesty I felt she would be a hazard to other people and dogs and I will not knowingly put another person or dog in jeapordy due to my dogs. If she had been younger, I think I would have been more inclined to address those issues, but I just didn't feel she would ever be reliable. (I really wish I knew then what I know now as I think she would have been a much different dog.) Additionally, my husband was competing in agility with his lab, and I was training for or competing with Digital in agility, conformation and coursing. And soon we got Jet who also was doing conformation, coursing and, later, agility. So our hands (and pocket books!) were full with the other dogs.

I think if you are just going to train and do classes, and the class is willing to make some adjustments if needed, go for it. However, if you're going to compete, and your dog has issues with dogs or people, you will need a 100% reliable recall. I don't know about the rules concerning a muzzle; none of the regular venues would allow it here.

Jet, my tri colored dog, has his own issues, basicly he can't focus. But he's fine with people (a total stranger could grab him and he'd never bite, growl or snarl - I've seen kids do this with him and he'll just stand there) and okay with other dogs. He does tend to run amuck in the ring, but sometimes he does wonderful. He has 3 novice titles and 4 open legs, so the ability is there. So I compete with him since I am not concerned about him being a danger to anyone.

Does that explain? Of course the ideal is to not compete until all dogs have a 100% reliable recall, but I'm not sure that's a possibility with sighthounds.