Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a neighbour who would like my Male GSD to mate with her bitch. He has good lines, papers, and his parents have more training certifications then I care to list. Her bitch is about the same but a few years older then my male.

When we got him we got him as a pet. I am not interested in intensive training or titles. I have thought about studding him but I didn't think it would be this soon, he is only 1&1/2 years old.

What kind of stud fees are usually charged?

Thanks in advance,
Scootter

First of all, has your neighbor OFA'd hips/elbows his female? And have YOU prelimmed your dog? Within most breeding circles dogs are OFA'd, hips/elbows at 2 years of age (can't be certified prior) before breeding.

I'm not going to get into a long speech about why you probably shouldn't breed your male. He has no titles, (does the bitch?), what will he contribute to the breed? what health clearances have they passed? etc etc.

A stud fee on a male that is not proven, has no titles, no health clearances, to a bitch with the same, well, not much. I don't think I can put a price tag on something like that, because personally, I wouldn't do it.

The norm is the cost of a puppy, or pick of the litter.

Diane

I was hoping this site would be a good sorce of information. All this site is good for is being told you need a training class.

Have we had them checked out???????? Yes we have. What kind of stupid question is that?

What will they bring to the breed????????? Loving pets? good companions? The puppies are wanted as perspective Police dogs.

So far I have recieved no real advice except for the last line of the above post. Are you all saying that if a dog has no training titles it is worthless and shouldn't be bread? That if I don't fallow a set of rules to train my dog and get a sheet of paper or a ribbon he is worthless?

Some of us don't have time for Classes every week or competions. This doesn't mean our dogs aren't well behaved and well loved.

I came to this site hoping to get good advice on how to work out some small problems. All I've been told is I need a trainer. No! I don't need a trainer. I need someone to give me some advice about how to start in the right direction. If I get in over my head then I'll call a trainer.

Now to be told that my dog shouldn't breed because he has no training titles is the last straw.

Have fun with your Trainer promotion site. If some one decides to give out real information look me up.

Scootter

You said the dog was only one and a half,right? It is to early to breed. I think its at least two they tell you to wait to make sure health problems don't show up.

I think the point is that if you don't have time for all the training then you don't have time to breed. But it is your dog. I don't know you or your dog so I can't say if it would add to the breed or not. Most police dogs when bred for that purpose are very carefully bred. You don't want to put a dog through training and then have a health problem show up. That isn't good for the handler or the dog.
And the person in the previoues post did tell you the fee is pick of the litter or cost of a puppy. That could be anything depending on the dog. Have you talked to your breeder about this? And did the vet tell you to breed?
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And reading your last few posts you definately should not breed.
You said the dog has seperation anxiety which is not a good thing-"When I leave with Rastus Dee-Oh-Gee howls, barks and whines almost the entire time we are gone. My neighbors have complained and it is very anoying."

ANd not only is the dog not listening to you but he just sits and howls for no reason at all. "He's laying down in the yard, picks his head up and howls from 30 seconds to five minutes. Nothing has to happen, he just does it.

I don't believe it's an attention getting device. If I walk out of the house to shush him it doesn't stop. He goes until he decides he's done. "

With you posting all of this I think it would be obvious that you not breed him. No the dog doesn't have to have titles but he is supposed to be the best of what the breed has to offer. If one of those pups grows up and has seperation anxiety or gets nervoues and bites someone then it looks bad on the breed. A dog that has seperation anxiety and barks enough to set your neighbors off , and howls for no reason should not be bred. What makes you think that his pups would make good police dogs. If that is what he is specifically being bred for its probally not the best idea. THere are enough dogs wihtout homes that would make great family pets. If the cops are looking for back yard breeders-and that would be what your doing- they would be just as good going to a shelter looking for them(which some do and thats great).
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Don't go reading a couple of posts and assume you know everything about my dog and me. You don't. Like I said below, this post wasn't meant to lead to a breading do's and don't lecture. It was posted to see what the standard fee is for a stud dog. I don't need to post my whole life for the Net world to read.

More info came into play later about liabilitys. That also goes with the theam of my original post. Weather or not I should breed my dog will be left up to the Vet. when the time comes. Stop judging people you know little or nothing about. This just shows you are overly judgmental, and closed minded.

Scootter

Your dog doesnt need pieces of paper to say hes good,true, but why bring more inferior dogs into the world?
Not saying yours is at all. But if someone cant show that a breed can do what it is bred to do or has the physically capabilities to do certain things, why breed it?
And if someone cant get the health testing done on a dog prior to breeding it, how much value do they place on their dog?
Shepherds have some bad traits because so many people breed their "Pet"
Thats how unstable dogs come about. (physically and mentally)
You'll do what you want, but people post things to help you and to help a magnificant breed. Its not a personal thing, its about integrety and a love of the breed and the future of the breed.

If people really wanted to help then they would post information other then "Take a class". I didn't start getting actual info until I got on my soap box.

I didn't think I need to post all the ins and outs of the situation to get an answer telling me that I get pick of the litter or the price of one pup. To tell you the truth it's nobodys business but ours and the buyers.

I also think that there is very twisted logic that goes into the thinking that puppys with no known background at the pound are fine to go out to who ever wants them, but full breed dogs shouldn't be bread because there are to many dogs already.

If there are already to many dogs then maybe everyone shouldstop breading for a few years and let it level out. Then it's fair to the pets and the elite show dogs.

Scootter

Hey buddy, cool your jets.

A RESPONSIBLE breeder only breeds dogs after they have been proven to be WORTHY of being bred. Sorry, but it's the truth. Deal with it. If you're breeding two pet dogs together you are doing nothing for the breed but PERPETUATING the overpopulation of dogs in this country. I can't think of why a police dept. would want dogs from untitled and unproven dogs. Just because your dog's parents are titled, doesn't mean that your dog posesses the same traits that made his parents breed worthy. Such is the nature of genetics. All of the puppies will not be of the same caliber of the parents. Some will be better, some will be worse. This is the reason you test your dog; To PROVE that it is good enough to be bred.

You think that training a dog is expensive and time-consuming? How about having a litter? OK, you might have the male, you just let him breed and get away scot free, right? Keep in mind that it takes a LOT of money, time, lost sleep, and nerves to breed and raise a litter. Did you know you can lose a bitch to a litter? Would you risk the life of your loving pet just to breed? Why not keep the dog and enjoy it. Continue loving it and raising it as a loving pet. If you want to breed, especially with GSD's, title them in sport and conformation. PROVE that they have something to contribute to the gene pool.

end rant
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Lesya & Sophie

A Dog Owner's Prayer

Author unknown
Thanks to Pattie Lawler
http://www.behaviour-problems.freeserve.co.uk/2/Poems/dogownerpray.htm

A litter of pups , if done correctly, is more time and money than any competition or training could ever be.
In some places and depending on the people, anything wrong with a puppy if proven it didnt come from the mother, the owner of the stud will have to reimburse the vet bills.
If the first mating didnt produce more than 1 live healthy pup they get a second stud next heat free.
if the bitch isnt experienced she may do alot of damage to your male, or other things can happen that if you know what you are doing, I am sure you are aware of.
If the female catchs something from the male, the owner of the male is responsible. financially.
breeding isnt just throwing 2 dogs together and your done.
Ubfortunately many people think it is. Thats why shelters are so full and so many states want breed bans.
And why some breeds get such bad reps.

Thank you for giving actual reasons and information. This is the first time I've gotten a decent amount of info out of someone on this site.

So here's more info on the situation to be considered. She has had a full physical within the last year and is in excellent health. She has some training Certification, I'm not sure what. The owner says she wants to breed around Aug. By then my dog will be 25 months, and Vet Certified.

I was told by my vet that the Cartalidge problems were common to GSD's, so I'm not really worried about that.

Thanks,
Scootter

Ok folks,

I know this is a hot topic, but we MUST keep from getting personal and abusive to one another. Post your opinion, but don't get personal. Debate is fine, as long as you debate the issue.

Melody/PHFasDog
DogHobbyist Site Coordinator

I am trying to be nice. If people would give answers to questions and not opinions on people and dogs they don't know this thread would have ended with,

"Thank you for the information."

Since people feel a need to make assumptions and give dirtection on their assumptions I will set them straight. This topic never needed to get "Hot" at all. But when peoiple start saying things that aren't true I am going to tell them to step back. People who have Large breed dogs as family members do not tend to be week minded or small voiced.

Scootter

People who have Large breed dogs as family members do not tend to be week minded or small voiced.

I have a large breed dog. A dobe who is very well behaved and that doesn't mean I get an attitude when people try to nicely tell me something. If you own a large breed dog it doesn't mean you act like this. That was a weird comment.
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reread the post.

You dont have an hour a week to spend with your dog, that says it all.
Some classes are only 45 min

Learn to read. I didn't say I don't have an hour a wek to spend with my dog. I said I don't have an hour a week to take a class. and since the closest classes are 45 minuts away it is about three hours. I spend all day every day with my dogs. I am a stay at home parent. I don't have three hours for a class, If I did I would be a student.

Scootter

>>>>>When we got him we got him as a pet.

People can't change their minds?

Scootter

>

It is common in part by bad breeding. You really want your dogs to be free of any health problems if you are going to breed them. You don't(or atleast I don't want) to breed more problems into a breed that is already over bred. You want to breed away for health problems.
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Anna

Vegas, Lab/Pointer mix (male)
Nevada, German Shepherd Dog (female)
Shorty, Bassett Hound (male)

The three bad kitties, two crazy ferrets, and all the reptiles, little fuzzies, noisy birds and fish.

>>>I was told by my vet that the Cartalidge problems were common to GSD's, so I'm not really worried about that.>>>>>>

I don't know why that didn't show up in my last message. Sorry

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Anna

Vegas, Lab/Pointer mix (male)
Nevada, German Shepherd Dog (female)
Shorty, Bassett Hound (male)

The three bad kitties, two crazy ferrets, and all the reptiles, little fuzzies, noisy birds and fish.

and have already covered them in other posts.

Scootter

The point is, if its just a pet, he should not be bred.
Why add to the problems shepherds already have if you like this breed?
The reason these dogs have problems (not just this breed) is because there is alot of people who feel like you do. I have a dog the same as so and so, therefore we can breed them.
Are you breeding him just to make money?
The problem is that alot of people who have "pets" breed their dog, then the shelters fill up, some are poorly bred and unstable, some have alot of health problems and it all reflects back on the breed as a whole.
The OFA is the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. When potential breeding stock reaches the age of 2, the breeder should have a set of x-rays taken and submit them to the OFA for certification. OFA will return a certification (Excellent, Good, or Fair) along with a certification number for the dog. (Dysplastic dogs will not be given a certification number.)
Hip dysplasia is considered to be polygenic. That means that it's caused by a combination of genes that may not show up in any litter previously.
make sure you can eliminate elbow dysplasia
Common in shepherds ""not from a sound breeding problem""
also # Pancreatitis
# Toxic Gut, bloat and numerous other gastro-intesital maladies
# Seizures
# Congenital problems such as cardiac anomalies, megesophagous..
All stuff that can usually be bred out if the breeding is done carefully and by studying the grandparents and back of the dogs you are breeding
Breeding plays an important role in the temperament of GSDs, so selecting a reputable breeder concerned with both physical health and the personality of their puppies is of utmost importance. Different bloodlines exhibit traits differently
Know the parents of both dogs that are being bred! Very important
a vet certification is what? the vet saying your dog is healthy?
Do you know that you have to bring the bitch to your house to be bred? You have to keep her for a time and you are responsible for her.
Do you know what to do if she moves or bolts and they both rupture?
There is so much more than just throwing two dogs together.
Do you have a pedigree on both dogs so you are sure you arent in breeding on either side?

You make good points. All of witch have been considered.

As I said before. Both dogs are papered. The bitch is in good health and has been checked out by a Vet. (Cert.? but would be before breeding) My dog will be over 2 yrs., checked out and certified.

They are both well behaved and loving dogs. If they are healthy there is no rerason they shouldn't breed. The quality will be well above pet store/puppy farm dogs, at a price people can afford. I am not in this for the money. I see no money in any kind of animal breeding except for meat.

If the things being said were true then only the world champion stud and bitch should breed. Because all other dogs are deffective and would only cause problems for the breed.

There is a demand for German shepards around here. They are wanted for pets and companions by decent people. But most people can't afford to pay large amounts of money for a dog. Vet bills spread out over time is one thing, But a $400 initial payment can be hard to stomach. I don't stand to make a dime as the owner of the stud. My dog eats $50 worth of food a month. I doubt I'd make up for a years food with one breeding.

Every body thinks that their reasdons for breeding are better then the next guys. I see no need for a dog that runs around a ring once a month but rides in a handbag the rest of the time. But I don't tell toy dog breeders they are wrong. My point is that the reasons are personal and not to be judged by people not involved.

This discussion was never ment to turn into me being lectured about the fractured ethics of dog breeding. But for some reason that's where it has staid.

Scootter

I dont think anything anyone can say will help you understand whats being said.
A certificate from a vet only says your dog isnt sick. Not that its breeding qaulity.
Many show dogs never get bred, thats not what matters.Its if they meet the breed standard as close as possible and have NO genetic defects, which without testing, you cant possibly know.
400.00 for a dog?? Thats very cheap.
But when you pay a high price for a pup, you are paying for all the money a breeder has put into the pup.
Eye tests, hip x rays, elbow x rays, blood work, shots, worming, and so forth. That way, the puppy buyer knows they are getting a good healthy pup that will live a long time.(without thousands of dollars in vet bills)
You are correct, people want healthy well adjusted puppies.
But sometimes, just because there is a demand doesnt mean you have to fill that, and feel you have to, you do the absolute best you can.
Do you know both parents of at least your dog? Seen them lately?
That would be a start.
I know personally 3 Shepherds, 1 had hip dysplasia bad, 2 died from cancer. All in the bloodlines and partly preventable. Wont you be upset if your dog gets older and he has one of these problems and the breeder didnt tell you? Or test for it? (and I dont mean in 10 or 12 years, could be 2 or 3)
You will be heart broken, out lots of money trying to save him and your dog will suffer alot.
Thats basically what good breeding is about. Not to be able to show a dog, or trot around a ring as you put it.
Its to have healthy dogs that will share your life for a long time.
But I think you have made up your mind and I just hope people who buy these pups dont end up hurting for it, or the puppies end up suffering.
Just go read all you can about shepherds and be as informed as you can. it wont hurt and its always best to know as much as you can.
You dont have to agree with what you read, but why not if the information is available?

http://www.offa.org/

$400 dollars for a dog is nothing. That's pennies. If the person cannot afford to buy the dog for $400, then how would you expect them to take care of your puppy in case of an emergency? What if the puppy chews on some carpet, or a stick, or finds a panty hose on the ground, swallows it, and needs emergency surgery to remove and repair the blockage? That surgery costs a LOT more than $400. If the person cannot stomach the cost of buying a puppy, then they should not own a dog. They cannot afford the care. What if the dog gets hit by a car? What if it gets into a fight with another dog? What if it injests something toxic? All of these cost much more than $400 to treat. I don't want to hear "it won't happen," because it does. You cannot prevent or prepare for some of the emergencies that occur. Routine vet bills is nothing. I don't think a single dog out there has been healthy its whole life, requiring only the annual checkups.

It is apparent that you are unwilling to consider the advice being given, and simply go on the defense, assuming that people are lecturing you with their mindless babble about how YOU should act. Hey, we can't tell you what to do, we can only tell you what a responsible breeder would do. Have comfort in the thought that you may be producing unsound dogs that might get Euthanized because they are ridden with genetic defects. This includes both physical and mental defects. An unsound dog bites a child, it will be killed. An unsound dog has Hip, Elbow Dysplasia, Back Problems, or any of an array of maladies that plague the GSD's out there today, it gets put down because it is too expensive to treat. The only way that you can prevent this is by getting the OFA and/or CERF certification (which, by the way, costs around $150-$200 dollars), and proving that the dog has a sound temperament by earning a working title. Hell, a CGC or TDI at least, to prove that it has a sound enough temperament to be a safe dog. OR, if you really want to better the breed, you would prove that it is physically sound by getting a conformation title on it. Mentally sound by getting a working title on it such as a Schutzhund title, which would be phenomenaml. But hey, who lives in a Utopian Society? I can only dream of such standards being met by all dogs that are bred...

If you want to help people find loving companions, why not open your door to a shelter dog. Foster it, find a "forever home" for it, and then foster another, help those out there that are in REAL need. The puppies produced by your breeding may very well end up in a shelter some day. Make sure that there is a contract written up. Guarantee that the puppies will be free of health defects such as Hip Dysplasia, Elbow Dysplasia, or any other genetic defect that may result from your breeding, and will be your responsibility. Are you confident enough in your dog and the bitch you are planning on breeding to to guarantee this? Are you and/or the owner of the bitch willing to take back a puppy that has one or more of these defects?

By the way, I don't think that dogs that run around a show ring their whole lives are the ones that should be producing. I think that the dogs that earn working titles, as well as comformation titles proving that they are correct to type should be bred. Anyone can look pretty, but can they put their nose to the grind stone and get the job done?
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Lesya & Sophie

A Dog Owner's Prayer

Author unknown
Thanks to Pattie Lawler
http://www.behaviour-problems.freeserve.co.uk/2/Poems/dogownerpray.htm

I think everyone has given good advice.

Since you've made up your mind and you'll do what you want to do anyhow, here's a couple of suggestions that you should very seriously consider:

1. OFA both hips/elbows
2. Don't breed prior to #1 being done.
3. Make sure both dogs have an absolute clean bill of health as your male, as well as the female can "pass" disease between the two of them when breed.
4. I would also make sure the "bitch" owner is willing to accept return of any puppy produced for any reason at any time. Those puppies WILL reflect on you and your dog and being "responsible" is just not up to the bitch owner.

Healthy dogs are THE most important thing when breeding..Breeding is a crap shoot anyhow, but why reproduce if you aren't using VERY healthy animals to begin with.

Just as a "note" AKC papers or any registration papers are only as good as the paper they are written on..In the end they don't mean "squat" when you end up with an unhealthy , bad tempered animal.

People breed for the following reasons, to improve the breed, keep a puppy, sell puppies, make money. It's up to YOU to decide what is important when doing so.

While I wouldn't put my seal of approval on this, I am not a diehard in that only dogs "titled" should be reproduced. I am however a total diehard in that only HEALTHY dogs and hip/elobw certified dogs with sound temperaments be reproduced.

Done with my "lecture"
Diane

I understand about the OFA certification. As I have now stated serveral times that I will have him certified and I will make sure he is healthy. I kind of figured these things would go without saying. I didn't know that I need to post the entire history and intent of both dogs or justify my personal reasons for wanting to breed. Yet it's now all been laid out here on the site, all because I wanted to know what the last sentance of your first post said.

I don't care if people look down on me for my breeding reasons. But I can't stand people automaticaly assuming my dog shouldn't breed without knowing him.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Scootter

Scooter - you've realized why I rarely come to this forum anymore after initially being so excited that I found it. With exceptions, people here make a whole lot of assumptions on little information. I was pretty much told on this site that my GSD was inferior and not happy because of the brand of food that I fed him. Everyone who comes in contact with him talks about how sweet he is and doesn't act like a "typical" German Shepherd - he's not protective, etc.

People also mentioned how cheap $400 was. I don't necessarily think so. While $400 is easily affordable to me, I don't think the price you pay for a dog (mine was $300) is directly related to how good of a companion they are.

And to say people who can't afford a $400 fee shouldn't have pets is ridiculous. Tell that to an under-priveleged, yet hard-working parent that wants to have a dog that would mean the world to their young children.

You sound like you are going to make sure the dogs are as healthy as reasonably possible. I can't say exactly how much to charge in your area, I would think at least a couple hundred.

Regards,
Ric

It's good to see I'm not the only person who lives in the real world.

Did you find another site where you can get info instead of lectures? If so I'd love to hear about it.

You can email me at Scootterass@yahoo.com with any info you might have. I'd really like to know where I can get honest answers without all the assumptions and lectures. I really don't plan on posting anymore on this thread, I just wanted to see it to it's end.

I'd really like to hear from you.

Scootter

while I haven't read thru every post on this topic, I'd just like to say something about "assumptions" and "lectures"

While you may not like them or want to hear them, when you ask a question, especially via the net, the only thing people who respond have to go by is what YOU tell them initially.

And while one may not like the answers they get, well I think for the most part on this board, people's first priorities are the GSD breed itself.

One last thing, I am a moderator on two other GSD boards, really HUGE boards, and the reply posts to you on this board were "tame" compared to what you would have received in other places. I certainly don't mean to insult , belittle or condemn you for what you wish to do with your dog. It's your choice. I'm simply trying to tell you, when you ask a question, don't be offended because it's not the answer you were looking for.

just an observation
Diane

Now, I have to wonder, if you recieved answers telling you things that you wanted to hear, would you be reacting so defensively and negatively to our responses?

I don't think so.
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Lesya & Sophie

A Dog Owner's Prayer

Author unknown
Thanks to Pattie Lawler
http://www.behaviour-problems.freeserve.co.uk/2/Poems/dogownerpray.htm

You're exactly right. If the first post would have simply contained the last line I'd have been perfectly happy. I wouldn't have said anything more then thank you. If you'd have read through the other posts and thought about what you'd read you'd have already known that. Unfortunatly I am getting long winded lectures from people who are either not reading or not remembering what I have written in my posts.

Since I do not agree at all with what is being posted I say so. I think the term "Dog Snob" fits very well. And just so you all know, If things work out,

I WILL BE BREEDING MY DOG!

I know this horrifies and sickens some of you, But luckily I have found that the opinions here are the minority.

You think that if someone cannot afford the large innitial payment for a well bread dog they shouldn't have one because they don't have the money for emergencies. But you promote pound dogs for pets. They charge the same to work on pound dogs as they do to work on pure breads. Do you think someone who can only afford a $30 dog can afford emergency surgery for it? Or is it more acceptable to let pound dogs die if they are injured? Shots and regular visits don't cost any less for pound dogs.

The money issue is another thing that upsets me. I don't understand how someone could see breeding dogs as a money making deal unless they are charging really outrageous fees for the puppies or they are running a puppy farm. I said it before, even if I charged $500 to stud my dog it wouldn't pay for a years worth of food. Not to mention all the vet bills. Throw my time and effort on top of it all and I'm loosing money. I'm doing it because I love GSD's and I know others that do too. But none of us feel like paying thousands for a puppy that could have the same defects as one we paid a minimal amount for. What would we get then? More money back from the breeders when our dog came up lame? Give me a break.

Everyone posting seems to think that breeder dogs should be completely perfect, breed standards, perfect temperment, same size shape and to some extent color. I seem to remember another group that had the idea only one kind should breed. They should all be the same shape, size and color. They should all be perfect physical specimans. They should all do something to improve the breed. Yep, I just compaired your ideas to those of the Nazi party. If this upsets you it's because it's meant to. The truth hurts.

If people would have taken the time to read and think about what was in my posts they would have seen that as the thread evolved I answered all complaints. I gave out more information then I ever intended to. There is nothing that was put forward as a concern that I hadn't already thought of, except for the liabilties to the owners of the bitch. I just didn't feel the need to list all of these things before stating the question.

If I took the time to find this site don't you think I would have found other sources of information also? Maybe bought books and researched the breed before I bought into it?

I don't feel like dealing with elitist dog snobs anymore. I might lurk on this site, but I doubt I'll ever post another question here. Judging by the site acvtivity you've made others feel just as welcome as you've made me feel. That oughtta tell ya something.

So I'll leave you all to sit on high and stand in judgement of what we lower class dog breeders do.

Scootter

I don't recall ever saying I felt your dog was inferior or less of an animal because you may not have paid alot of money for it.

I don't measure a dog by the price tag. I've seen 1200$ dogs I wouldn't give you a nickel for, I've seen 30$ dogs I'd love to live with..I'm not one that is a diehard believer that a dog must be titled prior to breeding. Some of the most fantastic dogs I've met, have never stepped into a show ring, weren't high price tags. It depends on the dog.

I measure a dog by it's health and temperament. As long as all health testing is done and the dog has a sound temperament I've really got no beef with someone breeding. There are many that don't even do that, that is where my beef lies.

While this probably would have really bothered me several years ago, I've seen and heard far worse than what you want to do..

You said someone posted something to the effect "if you can't afford 300$ or whatever to buy a dog, you shouldn't have one"
THAT I don't agree with, it again, depends on the owner..As long as they are loving/responsible owners, I truly believe if a medical emergency arose, they will find a way to do what's best for their animal..Again tho, I've seen people pay far more than that and dump the dog at the drop of a hat..So it depends on how dedicated an owner you are..I DO believe that alot of people tho, do not take into account how much medical treatment can cost.

I just spent 800$ in medication alone for 2 months of treatment on one dog. Another one cost me over 3000$ (a rescue) in surgery/xrays for knee problems. I am by no means a millionaire, I might be one if I didn't have these medical bills but I'm lucky I have a vet who allows payments.

Anyhow, I'm rambling, just wanted to throw that out there
Diane

Scooter and ricva,

This is my first and possibly my last post to this forum. I just had to say I agree with you. I was also very happy to find this forum, since I recently acquired my first pure bread GSD.
But I must have also acquired an inferior dog, since I only paid $300 for her and got her to be a loving companion/burglar alarm for me and my family. I'm sure there are a few other people out there like me that can not justify paying anywhere from $900 and up for a dog they do not wish to breed or show. The breeder I acquired my pup from had both sire and bitch tested and health check guaranteed as were their ancestors. The temperments were exceptional. When I took Biff Tala to my vet she said she was one of the best behaved GSD pups she had seen in a long time. Since then I have made monthly visits to the vet to have Biff weighed and pick up her heart worm pill. On each visit the staff makes time to come see Biff and remark on how well she looks and behaves. The one assistant recently acquired a $1,200 male GSD and asked me if I would be interested in breeding her to him when she was ready. (inferior dog?) But there will be no breeding as I decided to have Biff spayed.

The point to this post is. I would never have had a GSD in my life if it weren't for a special Breeder that was IMOP out to better the breed at an affordable price. For people like me that love the breed. And reading the replys to this thread has just about made me ill.

I have over 40 years experience with various breeds and have had mostly wonderful healthy dogs. Most of which lived to be 13-15 years old with only having routine vet checks. Maybe I am just fortunate but that is what I have experienced.

The price of the dog does not make it inferior, nor did I or anyone here say that this person's dog was inferior. Just test the dog for hip and elbow dysplasia and luxating patellas, as well as for the thyroid and the like. Put whatever pricetag you want on the offspring, just take the proper precautions before breeding it so that you do not produce dogs that will wind up in a shelter because it is either physically or mentally unstable.
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Lesya & Sophie

A Dog Owner's Prayer

Author unknown
Thanks to Pattie Lawler
http://www.behaviour-problems.freeserve.co.uk/2/Poems/dogownerpray.htm

if you are looking for pets but think that a higher price tag is outrageous, go to a shelter and save a life, instead of promoting backyard breeding. You can get a shelter dog for 30 bucks.

The higher prices of puppies from better breeders comes from trying to break even. As some of you obviously are not aware, the price of caring for a pregnant bitch, whelping puppies, and raising them until a proper age for new owners to pick them up, as well as the price of performing the proper health screenings (NOT JUST A WELL VISIT TO THE VET!!!!!), is astronomical.

There are also people out there who do NOT take the proper precautions before breeding and jack up the prices anyway-- this is why one should THOROUGHLY research the breeder and their breeding stock before commiting to a pup.
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Lesya & Sophie

A Dog Owner's Prayer

Author unknown
Thanks to Pattie Lawler
http://www.behaviour-problems.freeserve.co.uk/2/Poems/dogownerpray.htm

I have gone to a shelter and have adopeted several fantastic dogs. One stands out a 11 month old Brittney Spaniel that was to be put down. Her first 11 months of life must have been horrendous. It took me a year and another adopted pup to get her back to almost normal. But all the time and effort paid off. She gave me 14 fantastic years of joy. Unfortunately she had to be put down 4 months ago. And I do indeed know of the expense of Breeding as I have bred, raised and trained German Shorthaired Pointers for years. I know times have changed since then but I was not doing it for the money, I was doing it for the love of the breed and was more concerned with placing them in homes that would love and care for them.

People keep saying that no one said anything negative about owning a dog that only cost X amount of dollars. But I read the following post on this very topic. Particularly note, "That surgery costs a LOT more than $400. If the person cannot stomach the cost of buying a puppy, then they should not own a dog."

Weird, isn't it?
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Posted by: aysel at Mon Nov 22 09:17:17 2004
"$400 dollars for a dog is nothing. That's pennies. If the person cannot afford to buy the dog for $400, then how would you expect them to take care of your puppy in case of an emergency? What if the puppy chews on some carpet, or a stick, or finds a panty hose on the ground, swallows it, and needs emergency surgery to remove and repair the blockage? That surgery costs a LOT more than $400. If the person cannot stomach the cost of buying a puppy, then they should not own a dog. They cannot afford the care. What if the dog gets hit by a car? What if it gets into a fight with another dog? What if it injests something toxic? All of these cost much more than $400 to treat. I don't want to hear "it won't happen," because it does. You cannot prevent or prepare for some of the emergencies that occur. Routine vet bills is nothing. I don't think a single dog out there has been healthy its whole life, requiring only the annual checkups."

I'm sorry, but I seem to miss the "negativity" you speak of. It's a matter of common sense. If someone cannot afford to pay for something, that they know of ahead of time (why not save up some money? don't have that kind of money?) then how can they afford something that you cannot prepare for ahead of time, something that needs IMMEDIATE attention?

A dog is a dog, and their love knows no bounds. I am not saying that dogs that cost less are inferior in any way, I am simply saying that dogs that cost more are often (but not always) at a higher price because the breeder, being a responsible individual with the future of the German Shepherd (or other breed) in their highest priority, took the necessary precautions before breeding their dogs. Yes, genetics is often a crap-shoot, but why not stack the odds in your favor? Why not try to better the breed, instead of introducing more PETS from unproven parents (both health and tempermentally), which will more likely find their way into a shelter or, in some cases, far worse scenarios.

Also, like it or not, people often see their dogs as an investment. Someone is far less likely to get rid of a dog that cost $1000.00 than one that cost $400.00. They are considered less disposable. Now, before anyone tries to get angry and throw a fit over that statement, no, I do not think that way. It is simply a matter of statistical fact. Just one more thing to think about.

Simply because a dog costs less does not mean that it is all that an individual can afford. Whether someone that picks up a shelter dog for $150, or a SchHIII World Competitor, they must be able to afford the care necessary for the dog.

When I suggested shelter dogs, I did NOT imply that they were in any way inferior to other dogs. Shelter dogs are incredible dogs, with so much love to give, so willing to take any chance they get at a new lease on life... but would NOT have been there if people spayed and neutered their PETS, and left breeding to the individuals who take the time out to better the breed and find GOOD homes for them, matching each individual dog up to people who make the perfect compliment to their personalities. Have written contracts, health guarantees, health screenings performed on all breed stock, etc. Again, I speak of a utopia where there are no shelters, because there is no need for them, and there are no morons dumping dogs once the honeymoon is over, or fighting dogs, or beating, neglecting, abusing dogs....

I'm getting off-track. When I suggested shelter dogs, I suggested them because if you love your dog so much, and want to help people experience similar love from the company of a dog, why not help shelter dogs find homes. Even if they cost less, they should still NOT be adopted out to individuals who can not afford routine and possible emergency care.

/end rant

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Lesya & Sophie

A Dog Owner's Prayer

Author unknown
Thanks to Pattie Lawler
http://www.behaviour-problems.freeserve.co.uk/2/Poems/dogownerpray.htm

Someone protesteth a bit much. Is the problem really that if the police dept. is interested in the neighbors dog, there is reason to believe they know what they want. And if the neighbor is interested in this male there must be some reason for that. If you really think about it these two dogs are probably just what the police dept. wants in terms of linage. Otherwise they would not be interested. It was said that both would have the proper health and temperment certifications before they are bred so what the heck is the problem. Jealousy?

But really this isn't the first time I saw someone raked over the coals here. When I first found the site I thought it would be great. But all I have seen is get a trainer or ask your vet.
Believe it or not, in some areas "good" trainers for GSD's don't exist.

I think it time to quit whipping a dead horse.

Ok he'll temperment test- good idea
Temperment run is lines not just what the one dog in question is like
http://www.atts.org/
he'll OFA his dog.
As you know it can't be done till he's 2. good again.
People just offer the truth because the poor GSD has become so overbred and popular its not even funny
There are so many bad examples of the breed its disgusting
Neighbor might want to breed for many reasons, money, a puppy, the fun of it, ego, just so they can say they have bred, many reasons.
People seem to think that since they like their dog, its good enough to breed.