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I have an average Bichon Frise bitch that I show. For anyone wo
shows/breeds dogs, please help me! I want to start breeding Bichons,
I'm I am getting a really great Bichon male to show. I want them to be
my foundation dogs. But Limerick, my bitch, is just average and hasn't
been winning. But some people said she would be good for breeding. And
if I get this awesome male, and breed them, there
would be nothing wrong and the puppies would be nice, right? Well if
hes a good sire. He also has great lines(I would wait untill he got his
championship to breed him to Limerick. With Limerick, I wouldn't wait
to finish her to breed her). And I could breed to better dogs and
produce better dogs in later lines, right? In a few year I might get
another bitch but I want to start with Limerick.
Limerick faults are her pigment isn't great, her shoulder is up more
than a 45 degree angle as is should be and goes up into her neck more.
She is a little long is body, but my by much. Her tail is a litte lower
than it should be, but not much. Her head should be a little thicker.
But her movement is nice, she has great size, and she is average
overall. When I get her evalutated by people they say she is a nice
bitch. Except all the dogs beat her. All the other dogs are better
because all the top breeders are in my area (NJ) and they always go to
the same shows I do and beat us. So if she's nice and some people said
she would be good for breeding, then that might be OK if I breed her to
the really nice male I'm getting. Hopefully he's really nice. The
breeder I'm getting him from has really nice dogs, so I'm asuming. If
not, I will just find a stud if I decide to breed her. I really need
some different opinions from different breeders though. I have talked
to some breeders about it lightly, but not much and I will talk to them
about it more. But what do you think?

Erin

Erin, this is a very interesting dilemna and you are asking good questions, for which I applaud you. But one thing you said concerns me: "if I get this awesome male, and breed them, there would be nothing wrong and the puppies would be nice, right?"

The reality is much, much more complex than that.

The conventional wisdom is you have to start with the best bitch you can get, but in reality, many of us have started with average bitches, because in most breeds, getting a top quality breeding bitch is simply not possible until you produce your own or have long-established alliances with other breeders.

Also, if you can use a really excellent stud dog, the fact is that he will contribute half his genes to the puppies, so a great stud bred to an average bitch could still move your breeding program forward. BUT....

The question of what faults your bitch has is much more complex than average plus excellent equals above average. Because if a bitch and stud are really well-suited to each other, average plus average can equal excellent, and if they are not, excellent plus excellent can equal below average. And NO ONE can answer that question in advance without a profound understanding of the lines and of course, of the breed, which as a novice you quite naturally lack.

The issues you need resolved are:

Does the stud in fact possess the traits that will counter-act your bitch's faults? You say her front structure is not good - is his absolutely perfect? His head? His movement? His pigment?

Beyond that, what he looks like himself (his phenotype) is not as important as what he produces (his genotype). Has he been bred before, and if so, what has he produced? Were bitches with any of YOUR bitch's faults bred to him, and if so, what was the result? Did he correct those faults? If he has not been bred before, look at how his sire and littermates have produced, as well as his dam and her littermates, remembering that looking at first degree relatives is not as informative as looking at the offspring of the stud himself.

How hard are your bitch's faults to fix in your breed and her lines? In my breed, Scottish Deerhounds, badly constructed fronts are a bloody nightmare to fix, and I'd avoid them like the plague. But a so-so rear or a coarse head are easier to fix, and worry me less. Ring tails, while a fairly minor, non-functional fault, do hurt deerhounds in the ring, especially the group ring, and tend to crop up through all eternity, just when you think you finally got rid of them. <G> So you have to ask also how important your bitch's faults are in the Bichon ring. As a non-Bichon person I can't answer that.

Most unfinishable animals are not really breeding quality, but like most things in life, that's not an absolute. Still and all, as a conformation breeder, I'd rather start with a less-than-ideal bitch who can at least finish her conformation championship. There is a certain level that I'd rather not go below. In a working/performance breed you can balance conformation flaws with performance virtues, or in a breed with a specific health, structure, or temperament problem, you might bring in a flawed animal who can correct those vital problems in your breeding program. But these are the tasks of experienced breeders, IMO, not novices.

I strongly urge you to buy the book "Born to Win: Breed to Succeed" by Patricia Craige (now Pat Trotter, but she wrote the book before her marriage). You can buy it here on this website:

www.doghobbyist.com/books/bookdetail.php?ASIN=0944875823

I wish you all the best!
-----
Christie Keith
Caber Feidh Scottish Deerhounds
Holistic Husbandry since 1986
www.caberfeidh.com/
Dogged Blog

>>I have an average Bichon Frise bitch that I show. For anyone wo
>>shows/breeds dogs, please help me! I want to start breeding Bichons,

Erin, I wish my response was more positive, but its not going to be. My suggestion is simply forget the male, save your money and buy a really superior female, and then when she is ready, find JUST the right dog to breed to her based on genetics/bloodlines/problems/strengths. Rarely is that dog one you bought. Failing that, spay the bitch, get the male, and when you champion and special him so that he is TRULY desirable (and that takes a lot of money because males are so very competitive that only the top percent are sought after by QUALITY bitches), use the stud money to buy a bitch.

"foundation" sire and dam often is used by puppymills. If you check around, most breeders use outside studs on their bitches for the above reasons.

Sadly, starting with an average bitch means that in MAYBE 4 generations you will be where you would have been if you had simply waited, saved up, and got the right bitch to start with.

While some things like pigment might be more easily corrected or improved, should lay and other structural problems are not. I can tell you all this because 17 yrs ago I was where you are... a nice bitch, one people said was nice. And knowing no better, I bred her. Yes, I lucked out she had some superior qualities on bone and health and structure, but it truly took until her granddaughter to get the quality I should have had (and that with a male who had champions and dual titles in EVERY SINGLE DOG IN HIS PEDIGREE FOR 5 GENERATIONS!!!!) She produced a really good greatgrandaughter. SO after 12 yrs I was where i would have been had I known better in the beginning. Add to that, you have to live down the reputation of being all but a backyard breeder for having bred a mediocre dog to begin with. I got less flack because it was 17 yrs ago. Today, there are no excuses. The information is out there and only by playing deaf and blind can you fail to find the bottom line, which is that you do not do the breed or yourself any honor by breeding anything but a top quality bitch.

So step back. Find a really good mentor who will teach you bloodlines, genetic health issues, modes of inheritance of things like structure, coat color, pigmentation, etc.Truly LEARN those things. Then when you move forward, you'll know what you are doing and you'll be doing it with pride because you will be doing it right.

http://hometown.aol.com/debradownsth/myhomepagerespbrd.html

http://hometown.aol.com/debradownsth/myhomepagerespbrd2.html

http://www.bluegrace.com/virtualbreeding.html

BTW, on stud dogs.. an interesting spoofed letter on the REAL things a sought after stud would have to face:
>>Subject: So you want to breed your dog....
Date: Thu, 29 July 1999 08:44 AM EDT
From: LYSAMB
Message-id:

YOU WANT TO BREED YOUR PET PUREBRED DOG DO YOU?

PLEASE READ THIS FIRST..

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN,

HI. IM LOOKING TO BREED MY 3YR. OLD PUG (insert other breed here) JAKE. HE

IS PAPERED, IM LOOKING TO HAVE HIM FIXED SOON BUT I WOULD LIKE ONE OF HIS

NAMESAKE TO CARRY ON HIS NAME. IM NOT LOOKING FOR MONEY BUT I WOULD LIKE ONE

OF THE PUPS. PLEASE GET I TOUCH WITH ME MAYBE WE CAN TALK. MAYBE YOU CAN PUT

ME IN TOUCH WITH SOME ONE WHO CAN. THANK-YOU

Hi Gossimer,

This proposal sounds intriguing. I'm currently looking for a fawn stud for

my BISS Ch Larimar's Stardust CD, CGC (BIS/BISS Ch

Larimar's Chip of the Old Block ROM*** x Ch Jill's Win-Chimes of Lil Mite

ROM***).

What line is Jake from and what is his percentage/ratio for

linebreeding/inbreeding/cofactor? I apologize; but I'm not

familiar with his callname.

I'll need to know Jake's CERF, OFA patella luxation and OFA CHD

certification numbers, T3 & T4 test results, number of occurrences of

hemivertebrae, PDE, and cleft palate through the fifth generation. Just to

be on the safe side, I'll need a negative brucellosis and bordetella

licensed veterinarian certification from you. It's not a bad idea to get a

VetGen phenotyping either.

For the future Get, I'll also need copies of Jake's titles and his AKC

and/or CKC registration number(s). I'm especially interested in copies of

his PDCA ROM and additional stars awards.

Since there's no stud fee involved, I assume you'll want pick? Dog or

bitch? Will you be willing to agree to 1/2 the cesearean if

the cause should arise? If the whelps are larger than 6 ounces at

partrition, it will be necessary. This seems only fair. Last time I got a

good break and it was only $500, but unfortunately that vet retired this

year and the new owner has raised everything to almost double! It's hard to

find a good pug vet!

Will you be doing a natural or artificial? If artificial, I'll need you

to send the frozen semen Overnight Express Mail. I'll be willing to split

the cost; $500 should cover it unless you are on the East

Coast, then I'll send $750. Please let me know where to send the check. I

think it's only fair that you take care of the semen analysis expense since

I will be doing the whelping and training. You should be able to find a

Canine Semen Bank and Collection/Storage in your area. Be sure to get at

least three vials. The last time I looked into having it done, it was about

$900.00--a lot less than before since more and more people are doing it.

If Jake does natural, let me know which airport to ship to (if you are

outside of CA). To take care of my dam, I'll need to have an

overnight or early, early morning delivery time. Since it's getting warmer

now, it's best to plan for you to pick her up after midnight. Even with a

cool down mat you never know with these brachceapholoids ( I probably

mispelt that, but you

know what I mean! . Be sure to take MC/VISA or cash since

the counter-to-counter service does not accept checks. Let me

know after they tie three times and then I will let you know the return

arrangements. She ovulates late, so she may be two or three weeks at your

house. I'll get her to you by the tenth day just to be sure we don't miss

it or she absorbs.

Double check with your home owners insurance plan to see

that it covers visiting matrons in case anything should happen. A BISS

CH/CD/CGC should be covered for a minimum of $5K.

Since her cycle is so late, you'll need to purchase Solid Gold. I

can't send enough in the crate. It generally runs $40 a bag Be sure to

get the Seameal, Pet Tabs Plus, Concept-A-Bitch, and Red

Raspberry Tea Leaves too. Also, she'll need 500 mg. of Ascorbic Acid, 200

mg. of Tocopheryls twice a day with tepid water. Not too hot because she

will grow finicky.

Be careful not to give her A palmitate since this can increase

the chance of cleft palate and I don't want to have to cull.

It's a good idea to give her organically grown-pesticide free calf

liver. You'll need to prepare it yourself since she doesn't like

pre-packaged brands. It's best to buy it in 50 lb. bulk and

boil it all at once. Be sure to keep skimming the foam off every 15

minutes because she doesn't like it slimy. Bake it afterwards until it's a

good baiting consistency then vacuum-pack and freeze it. The whole process

should only take about 12 hours. In a hurry you could get it down to 10

hours.

You won't have to worry about splitting the vaccination costs for the

litter. I give my own now and that will save you half of

the normal $480 or so. You can help out with the title rebates if you'd

like.

Your pick should be ready at 12 weeks. I'll let you know the whelping date

so that you can plan the transportation. I assume you already own a Sherpa?

That's the best way to go if you're out of CA, otherwise you can drive to

pick it up--just bring along a Vari-Kennel.

What are your club affiliates? I don't recognize your email address off the

top of my head. I'm DPCA, PDCA, NCPC. If you're not PDCA, we can work on

getting you your two letters of recommendation.

Well, let me know when you have all the necessary paperwork done. Also,

please send me Jake's AKC certified 4 generation with coat

colors and his best win shots so that I can make colored copies.*******
-----
Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]

Thank you both. I'll really have to think about what I will do. You both have probably been the most help so far. If I need more help, I will probably call on you if you don't mind.

Thank you!!

Erin

>>Thank you both. I'll really have to think about what I will do. You both have probably been the most help so far. If I need more help, I will probably call on you if you don't mind.

Please feel free to call on me at any time!
-----
Christie Keith
Caber Feidh Scottish Deerhounds
Holistic Husbandry since 1986
www.caberfeidh.com/
Dogged Blog