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Does anyone know how to differentiate between hatchling gray rats vs hatchling yellows. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Not sure how to differentiate between hatchlings but, apparently, the saddles of the Yellow rats soon begin to connect at the corners to produce stripes, while the saddles themselves fade and eventually disappear.
Grey rats, however, retain their juvenile saddles throughout life.

Soz if that's no help. Good luck with finding out.

Kat

(1 female grey(white oak)American ratsnake)

One possibility involves the tongue. My references indicate that Yellow Rats have black tongues. Most other rat snakes have red tongues, but I'm not sure about Gray Rats. Someone else should be able to confirm or refute this.
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MichaelB

Gray rats have black tounges as well as all the other rats of North America. A baby gray rat is a really light gray color. There is no sign of orange or yellow on it any where. Pic of baby gray rat http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/fl-guide/eospil01.jpg Yellow rats have some trace of yellow or pale orange on them. There could also be very faint stripes. Pic of baby yellow rat http://photographytips.com/Images/sn-yellow-rat-juv.jpg Hope I could help.

Not all rat snakes have a black tounge. I know that yellows and blacks do for a fact but I'm not sure about grays. Everglades rats have a red tounge. That's all I can say about tounges.

My Black/Texas intergrade (Tanner - see below) has a red tongue. That might be due to the prevalence of Texas Rat in her, but I'm thinking that most of the ones I've seen around here (all intergrades of some degree) have red tongues. How about the rest of you Black Rat owners?
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MichaelB

Can't say anything about black rats But the whole tongue deal is blown way out of proportion on Florida rats. Over the last 30 odd years, I have collected/or seen hundreds from the wild and I have seen plenty of Everglades with black tongues and yellows with red tongues. Usually (the tongue is about half black half red). I have also caught "Gulf Hammocks" that had the bi-color tongue.
Frank

The original 1949 Scientific & Published description of Elaphe obsoleta "rossalleni" very specifically calls the tongues PARTIALLY RED. The tongues are partially red with black edges. I have only heard of red tongues in hypomelanistics and albinos of the Florida obsoleta complex. It is good to note and check the tongue colors, but I think we need to look at other physical charateristics between a baby gray rat snake and a baby yellow rat snake. For exmple, scale counts, anal plate, differences in the patterns or blotches, etc. The ground color, pattern color, and tongue color can be common for both.

Terry Parks

>>Can't say anything about black rats But the whole tongue deal is blown way out of proportion on Florida rats. Over the last 30 odd years, I have collected/or seen hundreds from the wild and I have seen plenty of Everglades with black tongues and yellows with red tongues. Usually (the tongue is about half black half red). I have also caught "Gulf Hammocks" that had the bi-color tongue.
>>Frank

On closer inspection, Tanner has some black along with the red. The main reason I suggested the tongue thing was Conant/Collins' comments on Yellow Rats ("Tongue Black" and Everglades Rats ("Tongue Red" . Both are italicized in the book. They do not comment on tongue color in any of the other Elaphe descriptions.
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MichaelB

in response to telling the difference between any of the obsoleta complex. It can be used to strengthen identification and/or differnces in obsoleta. When speaking of tongue color in obsoleta, the Texas rat snake will have a red tongue and the bairds' rat snake (not presently obsoleta, but was in the group)has a red tongue. I still lean towards there has been enough integration between Texas rat snakes and Bairdi to have sufficient gene flow to give a stronger consideration of bairdi being a subspecies of obsoleta. You made a good point on the tongue color, but it doesn't seem to be as easy as red is Texas rat snake and black is black rat snake. By the way, the gray rat snake has a black tongue. Your quote and reference to Conant/Collins works great for me. Good luck.

Here's a pic of my w/c gray rat snake.

Terry Parks
www.kernreptile.com

Sorry, I had to be the one to post it. I've been comparing and checking my baby yellow rat snakes to some baby gray rat snakes I have. The yellow rat snakes are more dirt groundcolor with a yellow tint and dark brown saddles. The gray rat snakes don't have any yellow tint and are definitely blackish saddles and a light gray groundcolor. I guess I should look up the blotch and scale counts of each.

Terry Parks

>>Does anyone know how to differentiate between hatchling gray rats vs hatchling yellows. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

This snake was found in my yard. I live in Jacksonville Florida where it could be either gray, yellow, or intergrade. The books I have access to just state that as the snake gets older yellows will turn yellow. I know this already.

a couple suggetions of what to look at. I compared my baby yellow rat snakes to my baby gray ratsnakes and they definitely show a diference in color. I suggested maybe to do a scale and/or blotch count. I do not have the snake in my possession nor have I seen a pic where I could do a count. That unfortunately means, you or someone around you will have to do it. How about, "what color is the tongue?" for starters.

Terry Parks

>>This snake was found in my yard. I live in Jacksonville Florida where it could be either gray, yellow, or intergrade. The books I have access to just state that as the snake gets older yellows will turn yellow. I know this already.

Here is a picture of my Dwight Good stock yellow rat snake. It has quite a bit of yellow tint to it compared to most baby grey rat snakes I have seen. The saddles have a brownish tint to them as well.

Thanks for all the replies. The pics were especially helpful. The tongue is black and it is primarily a grey snake with black blothches without a hint of yellow at all. The tongue is black. When looking at the pics it looks like a grey. Thanks again for everyones help.

Thanks for all the replies. The pics were especially helpful. The tongue is black and it is primarily a grey snake with black blothches without a hint of yellow at all. When looking at the pics it looks like a grey. Thanks again for everyones help.