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My dog is seriously close to being traded for a dollar bill. Heres the quick story: he was at the dog park and was off leash as he has proven to me he is capable of being off and coming when called.Although at times he takes his time still he obeys. I am trying to get him to stop being dominant towards other dogs at the park by telling him down/stay and when the other dogs are done sniffing he may go play hence this day at the dog park was practice for that training. He was eating something off the ground got scolded" No! Dont eat that!" and told to come,which he didnt do and ran a ways away still in eye shot. After trying the "alpha role" in that I was told I need to be in charge I said sternly to come and still nothing he acted like he was in trouble and wouldnt come. I tried the "best friend" role in soft voice and treat in hand etc and still he would come then leave. I got angry and left seeing if I could play on his sep. Anxiety to get him to think"oh no shes leaving!" I knew the person on the trail behind us so didnt think he would be in danger so I walked off and still he wouldnt come. I was out of eye shot of him for about 5 min. and he came out with the person and came to me let me leash him but knew he was in trouble since he wouldnt take the treat I offered for coming and letting me leash him.

Then at flyball practice the next day: he did the "catch me if you can" game in which he delights when the team of people tries to catch him. I try not to play that game and stand commanding him but with a soft voice I have to continualy keep saying "come come come!" so I started the sit/down stay thing and he would obey but when i said good boy and approached with a treat he would make a run for it and play the game all over again. Because of that he now is the only dog on our team to be on a 25ft leash for practice which makes me feel all warm and fuzzy :| about him having that treatment now.

Please help me out I am seriously angry with this dog right now and It takes a lot to do that esp. with my dog. I cant look at him and not think hes mentaly retarded which I know isnt true. But im so angry!I have come a long way with him through all of his faults that norm. people would give up on. He has been great and now hes downgraded to retard again like in puppy hood! Please dont say get a trainer because I do not have the money for it. I would LOVE to do so but I cannot afford it.

Thank you

>>My dog is seriously close to being traded for a dollar bill. Heres the quick story: he was at the dog park and was off leash as he has proven to me he is capable of being off and coming when called.Although at times he takes his time still he obeys. I am trying to get him to stop being dominant towards other dogs at the park by telling him down/stay and when the other dogs are done sniffing he may go play hence this day at the dog park was practice for that training. He was eating something off the ground got scolded" No! Dont eat that!" and told to come,which he didnt do and ran a ways away still in eye shot. After trying the "alpha role" in that I was told I need to be in charge I said sternly to come and still nothing he acted like he was in trouble and wouldnt come. I tried the "best friend" role in soft voice and treat in hand etc and still he would come then leave. I got angry and left seeing if I could play on his sep. Anxiety to get him to think"oh no shes leaving!" I knew the person on the trail behind us so didnt think he would be in danger so I walked off and still he wouldnt come. I was out of eye shot of him for about 5 min. and he came out with the person and came to me let me leash him but knew he was in trouble since he wouldnt take the treat I offered for coming and letting me leash him.
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>>Then at flyball practice the next day: he did the "catch me if you can" game in which he delights when the team of people tries to catch him. I try not to play that game and stand commanding him but with a soft voice I have to continualy keep saying "come come come!" so I started the sit/down stay thing and he would obey but when i said good boy and approached with a treat he would make a run for it and play the game all over again. Because of that he now is the only dog on our team to be on a 25ft leash for practice which makes me feel all warm and fuzzy :| about him having that treatment now.
>>
>>Please help me out I am seriously angry with this dog right now and It takes a lot to do that esp. with my dog. I cant look at him and not think hes mentaly retarded which I know isnt true. But im so angry!I have come a long way with him through all of his faults that norm. people would give up on. He has been great and now hes downgraded to retard again like in puppy hood! Please dont say get a trainer because I do not have the money for it. I would LOVE to do so but I cannot afford it.
>>
>>Thank you

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Don't take him off a long line in any area where he could possibly evade your call for a minimum of 6 weeks. Meanwhile, train, train, train on the recall. But be aware that his recall has been damaged by his having the opportunity to discover that it is optional, being off leash too soon. So it may always be weak. A trainer could help, but, these are things you can do on your own.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

I'm sorry you're having such problems with him.. I don't have any real advice other than get a long line to teach recall and never let him off, no matter how he seems to be behaving while he's on it.. He's two years old, right? A trainer I was talking to said no dog should be trusted off leash until he's at least 3 years old and has proven himself perfectly reliable on a long line for at least 6 months (preferably a year). Even then a dog park wouldn't be the best place to start, because there are so many distractions.. Most dogs aren't mentally mature until 3 years old so things you teach them might seem optional, like many social manners seem optional to small children.

But if it's any consolation he doesn't sound "retarded" it sounds like he's too intelligent for his own good. He's figured out that he can get around doing what you want of him and make games out of it.. That's smart, not stupid

nothing to add, just the old, if your dog seems to forget or misbehaves, then you have to go back a step, or maybe even start over at the begining. Thats what I'd do, just treat him like he was 3mos old. its like he's taking all these fun/games for granted. no work - no fun. if he goes 1 step or 1 second out of bounds then he gets a time out. I'd not yell or let any frustrated body movements confuse the issue. its just black & white - non compliance = time out. after his brief time out, put him on a 6ft lead & do some refresher work. & for you, just try & recall all the good results you have had already & BELIEVE that you will suceed. Seth is a rebellious adolesent now, testing you.

Hello, just wanted to add: he is still young and will try and see what he can get away with. Also if I remember, you said he is a sight hound, right? Bred to work independently(for the most part), so that may be some of it. I personaly don't think that you should punish him for being dominit over other dogs. It may confuse him, and it's not bad, it's the way dogs are. If it is a problem for you than maybe you shouldn't take him to the dog park. Good luck with him.
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Anna

Vegas, Lab/Pointer mix (male)
Nevada, German Shepherd Dog (female)
Shorty, Bassett Hound (male)

The three bad kitties, two crazy ferrets, and all the reptiles, little fuzzies, noisy birds and fish.

First of all, get over your anger. Anger has no place in dog training, and is EXTREMELY destructive and counter productive where the recall is concerned.

A good recall is a learned HABIT. Some dogs can never be reliable off lead. A dog park is the highest possible of all distraction areas. Do no expect your dog to graduate college before he is done with grade schoool.

The first thing to do in practicing a recall is to stand in front of a mirror and look at yourself when you are calling the dog. Do you look pleasant? Happy? Like someone who would be nice to come up to? Remember, the times when you will need your recall the very MOST is when your dog is the most distracted. Coming to you must be the very best possible thing at ALL times.

Coming to you must NEVER be optional. Ever ever again. this means practicing in a controlled environment or on a line on a regular basis for at LEAST 90 days.

Practice in a small area at least twice per day. The dog should KNOW that EACH time he comes to you there will be a food reward, or something fun to happen. PERIOD. NO EXCEPTIONS. When the dog comes in for his reward, hold it right next to your body. No reward until you are touching the collar and controlling the dog. This way you avoid the "catch me if you can" game.

Remember, when you NEED your dog to come, he is going to be interested in something exciting. YOU have to be something REALLY good, and he must know that something positive will result from his coming to you.

Good luck, practice every single day, make it fun, don't let it be optional, and set your dog up for success. Don't have unrealisitic expectations. Start small and work up. Keep anger out of it. He is just a dog and reacts to his environment as such. It will be to your great benefit if you learn to use that to your advantage.

>>First of all, get over your anger. Anger has no place in dog training, and is EXTREMELY destructive and counter productive where the recall is concerned.
>>
>>A good recall is a learned HABIT. Some dogs can never be reliable off lead. A dog park is the highest possible of all distraction areas. Do no expect your dog to graduate college before he is done with grade schoool.
>>
>>The first thing to do in practicing a recall is to stand in front of a mirror and look at yourself when you are calling the dog. Do you look pleasant? Happy? Like someone who would be nice to come up to? Remember, the times when you will need your recall the very MOST is when your dog is the most distracted. Coming to you must be the very best possible thing at ALL times.
>>
>>Coming to you must NEVER be optional. Ever ever again. this means practicing in a controlled environment or on a line on a regular basis for at LEAST 90 days.
>>
>>Practice in a small area at least twice per day. The dog should KNOW that EACH time he comes to you there will be a food reward, or something fun to happen. PERIOD. NO EXCEPTIONS. When the dog comes in for his reward, hold it right next to your body. No reward until you are touching the collar and controlling the dog. This way you avoid the "catch me if you can" game.
>>
>>Remember, when you NEED your dog to come, he is going to be interested in something exciting. YOU have to be something REALLY good, and he must know that something positive will result from his coming to you.
>>
>>Good luck, practice every single day, make it fun, don't let it be optional, and set your dog up for success. Don't have unrealisitic expectations. Start small and work up. Keep anger out of it. He is just a dog and reacts to his environment as such. It will be to your great benefit if you learn to use that to your advantage.
>>
>>

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I like this answer! I said 6 weeks on a long line, this one says 90 days, another says not before age 3--I want to raise my time! MUCH longer than 6 weeks!
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

I am curious - why are people so eager to let their dogs off lead??? It was not easy for our trainer to get me to take my dog off lead and I didn't do it outside of an enclosed training area till he was 4 or 5 yrs. old. Now, I admit I tend to be over protective, but what I really don't understand is why jeoardize your dogs safety? There are leads in at least 4 - 5 different lengths- why not use a 20' or 30' lead when you go out? I know many people go to dog parks- another thing that I don't understand - but imo that is setting your dog up for some grave possibilities and setting them up for continual failure. Asking a dog to follow commands when there are a bunch of dogs and other distractions around just isn't fair to the dog. Yes, dogs absolutely need socialization - but under favorable circumstances where they can succeed. Take him/her on visits to friends, neighbors, family on a reg. basis. Take them to strip malls where they see people coming in & out of stores. Take them to public places. I take my dogs to a town that has a busy tourist time. We walk up & down the sidewalks and even go in some shops. And you always need to have treats with you! This is a very imprtant trainig tool- and for some dogs the only one that is worthwhile. You can get them to follow commands without them eventually- but when they are young or first being introduced to training it is invaluable! They will learn to not always rely on food as a reward in time- but you need to lug around some treats for awhile.
Just some thoughts!
Nancy

That was a wonderful post and I completely agree. I've accepted that Kaiser may never be allowed off leash and I'm not bothered by it in the least.. There's too much of a risk involved..

I was talking to a man at my vet's office last week who was having problems with his doberman chasing the mailman away. He said "she's chased the poor man down the block three times and been pepper sprayed twice! I don't know what we're going to do.." She is 1 year, 3 months old.. Far too young to be off leash.. The man just seemed so exasperated, I couldn't understand it. The solution seemed perfectly obvious to me..

The reason dogs chase mailman is because they see the man approach the house, the dog barks, and the mailman leaves. The dog thinks he did a great job gaurding the house. Maybe you could tell this person to ask the mailman carry treats on him, and for a while greet the mailman at the door on a leash, get a cookie and then say good bye.

Yeah, that makes sense.. I'll probably never see that man again unless we happen to be at the vet at the same time. It really bothered me though that the thought never occured to him to have the dog on a leash, or even keep the dog inside when the mailman is supposed to be coming..

It just seems logical. Dog runs away, for whatever reason, dog stays on leash. What if she darted across the street? Dobes are big dogs but not even horses will win against a car..

Yea thats just rediculous. I have Cookie on the leash whenever anyone comes over so I can keep her under control. I don't think she's ever seen the mailman though, since she's always in her crate when he comes. But if anything, she would do nothing but love him as she does with everyone she meets!

heh, lucky you I wish Kaiser would love everyone he meets..

He will! It's just a matter of time. Just have faith!

I understand what you are saying, but it sounds like what your suggesting wouldn't give the dog any dog-on-dog socilization which is necissary unless you want your dog to be agressive toward other dogs. I think going to the dog park is very good, but I agree with you that the dog should be kept on a long lead for quite some time, but there is no need to not take the dog to the dog park, in my opinion. You're setting the dog up to be aggressive. I understand that you are saying, why set the dog up to disobey you, but at the same time, how will he ever learn to obey you if you never introduce him to it? It takes time, you can't expect the dog to know what you want of him right away. It will take years of being on a long line and you training him to come when called, but you DO want to do this in many situations, dog parks too. I wouldn't start out training in a dog park, you want to slowly introduce more distractions. But I don't see any harm in taking him to the dog park, even if he's not trained yet, it's good socilization, don't work on training at this time, do that during other times when there are less distraction. But there is no reason why he can't go to the park and play with other dogs on the lead.
This is only my opinion and what seems to make sense to me.

I don't know for sure but I think when she said taking them to people's houses and visiting, etc. that would include taking them to visit other dogs, as well.. We don't have dog parks here, so I'll probably never get to take Kaiser to one but I would much rather take him somewhere I can watch all the dogs involved, like a friends' back yard.. It can't be assumed that all people will be watching their dogs.. Even in a situation like this one where the dog would not come when called and came out of the park with the people behind, I would absolutely hate to be that person that Seth left the park with.

I've never been to a dog park, I'd never even known such things existed before coming to these boards so I don't know how they work. But even this situation with Seth, and talking to random dog owners around here - people tend to let their dogs off leash long before they are ready for it. Not to mention people letting their dogs off leashes leaves no opportunity for people with more dominant or aggressive dogs to visit the park.

For example, if I wanted to take Kaiser to the dog park just to look around, get him used to the activity, smells, sights.. Because he is aggressive toward other people, and somewhat aggressive toward some other dominant dogs, that would not be an option. Kaiser of course would stay on the leash at all times, but Kaiser wouldn't be the problem. All it would take is one other dog, off leash, not listening to their owner just that one time, and I would have fight on the other end of the 6' leash that I'm holding. That's not fair to Kaiser, not fair to me, and not fair to the other dog. For some people that situation might be the only opportunity to introduce some socialization to a dog that really needs it and one other owner would ruin it or prevent it entirely because they want to let the dog off leash.

Like I said, I've never been to a dog park, I don't know the general rules of etiquette but in my opinion if having your dog off leash is going to cause problems for even one person that may be in the park at any given time, that's not fair to them. Legally who would be at fault if a fight like that broke out?

I admit I'm in an argumentative mood but I don't like the idea of a dog park either unless it's law to keep them on leash (even a 20 or 30' line would be fine). And if that's the case, why have a dog park at all? A regular park will do. Socialization is great but in a dog park very little of what's going on is under your control..

Well as long as the dog is getting plenty of dog-on-dog socilization otherwise, than thats fine as long as he's getting it. Obviously Kaiser is in a different situation.
I don't think any dog should be allowed off the leash unless you know he can be absolutely positively trusted, and that won't happen for years.
I know what your saying about trusting other owners. I was walking Cookie the other day and this Rodesian Ridgeback came flying out of nowhere, no owner in sight. Luckily he wasn't aggressive. Then the owner showed up, and I told him the leash law and so on ans so forth and he explained how his dog was trustworthy, and I said, well what if he ran into an un-trustworthy dog? He didn't have much to say after that, just called his dog, (kind of smirked at me to say, "See? He IS well behaved) and they walked off.
There is a place near where I live that we are going to take Cookie, It's a large gym that you can take your dog to play with other dogs, but there are about 5 doors you have to go through so other dogs can't run out while you are running in, and there is a check in process. It costs $5 and if they don't think your dog should be around other dogs, they don't let you in. And I would assume anyone with an aggressive dog would not want to drive somewhere and pay money for there dog to get in a fight.
I just thought of a good tip in my puppy book that I thought I would mention. If you see Kaiser tensing up to lung or attack, try to laugh convincingly, this will (supposedly) switch the dog from aggressive mode to happy mode. If you miss the opportunity, clap your hands really loud, this is supposed to break it up. It said you should never pick up the dog if there is an aggression issue, with your dog or the other, just laugh, and turn and walk the other way.
I don't know what else to say about the dog parks. It's a very contraversial issue. I like them becuase I think it's good for the dog, but again, you can't always trust other owners, so it's a tough call. But 90% of the time, the owner is aware there dog is aggressive and don't take them to the dog park. When I was walking dogs for work, I dealt with a lot of different owners and dogs, and not once was I told a dog wasn't aggressive that actually was. They always told me if the dog is aggressive or not. Chances are they don't want their dog euthanized, so they will avoid the situation. I have never ever seen an aggressive dog off a leash in a park or otherwise (Knock on wood), but you're right, you never do know.
I guess it's all a matter of opnion. There are pro's and there are cons. Absolutely with Kaiser, you should avoid the dog park.

Yeah.. I guess I'm just defensive about stuff like that.. I mean even if the off-leash dog isn't aggressive he may still be an alpha personality, which would cause problems with my dog..

It just annoys me that sometimes for some owners it might be the only way to get an semi-aggressive dog used to the sight of other dogs and some people have to go and spoil it for everyone.. I think a meeting place for dogs and their owners is a great idea but it should be fair to all dogs and owners, not just some... I'll bet there are so many dogs out there that would benefit very strongly from just being in the environment but they can't because some people insist on letting their dogs off leash.

That's just my opinion. Unless you're on private property it's inconsiderate of anyone to let any dog off leash... Too many things that can go wrong, it's so risky..

It will never be a problem though, I don't think dog parks exist in Ontario.. I think someone even told me once that they're illegal here because there were too many dog fights happening.. Dogs are only allowed off leash on private property, period. I don't know if that's true though, I just remember hearing it once..

I do like the idea of the gym thing though, that's pretty cool..

I completely understand what you are saying, better safe than sorry, and it is good that you feel that way. When I walked dogs, I took many of them to the dog park and never had a problem, but you're right, why risk it.