Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have noticed a lot of people talking about "time outs" and I am a little confused. Even in my puppy book it says time outs are ok. We have never given Cookie a time out because we thought that the crate was always supposed to be a positive experience. But wouldn't putting her in the crate for a time out be negitive? I only ask because it seems like everyone does it so I must be missing something.
Thanks in advance!

>>I have noticed a lot of people talking about "time outs" and I am a little confused. Even in my puppy book it says time outs are ok. We have never given Cookie a time out because we thought that the crate was always supposed to be a positive experience. But wouldn't putting her in the crate for a time out be negitive? I only ask because it seems like everyone does it so I must be missing something.
>>Thanks in advance!

oh dont do that! I used to put my dog in his kennel for being bad or just so I could leave for the day. He has sep. anxiety so my issue is a bit diff. but he associates that kennel as: kennel=mom goes away,bad. Ive always been told to never use the kennel as a place of punishment,I didnt listen in my times of anger(little snot took food off the counter) and now I pay the price of making it a fun place again. If there has to be a time out possibly try putting the leash on her and making her lie down infront of you for a bit and just ignoring her.Place your foot on the leash so if she does get up she cant go far and make sure you tell her down again. When time out is over praise her for staying down so it isnt always a bad experience with the leash as well. Just a suggestion I could be wrong in that praising after the deed is done could mean doing it more but I would think after a few minutes the pup wouldnt remember what it did. But I personaly say dont put her in the kennel! Kennels are to be happy places!

Good luck!

Did you ever put Seth in his kennel while you were home, just for no real reason at all? I've read that it's an effective way of dealing with sep. anxiety. Also apparently it helps to be as boring as possible while in the house - don't play with him, don't give him treats, and do any obedience training outside.. He only gets toys and meals when he's in his crate.. That way being with you is boring and being in the crate is enjoyable, so crating is easier.. Apparently doing that for a few months and then gradually working away from it works really well...

I've wondered that too.. and if you can't crate her, how are you supposed to get her to settle down? Maybe ignoring her and suddenly ceasing all attentions counts as a time out? Or tying her to her leash somewhere in the house for a few minutes?

I've read that tying them to a leash (that is tied to a hook in the wall, piece of heavy furniture, etc.) can be effective because the joy of walks will always overpower the dismay at being restrained indoors by it, so she'll think more about not being able to go anywhere and less about the leash that's keeping her from running around...

I don't know.. I'd love to hear an expert answer on this as well.. Something I just never thought to ask..

Well there are definitely times when I know she should get a time out, but we don't know how to do that, so we just ignore her. If she is still being bad after no eye contact, we go into a completely different room so she can't see us, wait a few minutes then go back. This works for barking, but what about when she is nipping or just not obeying or something else. I am a big fan of "The punishment should fit the crime", especially with dogs cause I would think it would help them associate what they are doing with the punishment. If we're playing tug, and she barks, I take the toy away. If she isn't being patient about meal time, she has to wait until she is quiet before she gets it, and so on and so forth, but what do you do when nothing else works, besides a time out? But what IS a time out? I don't want to crate her as punishment, then when we go to work, she will think she is being punished. Maybe we will try the leash thing. We go for walks out the back door in the kitchen, and thats where I put the leash on her. Maybe if I keep her in the living room for a time out, she won't make the connection of the leash being bad at walks too. And what about if she doesn't obey a command? Wouldn't ignoring her let her win, since she didn't want to do the command in the first place?

If she's not obeying obviously ignoring her won't work, I think ignorring is more for behaviours where she is demanding something of you.. I don't know, the time out thing confuses me too.. With Kaiser I keep a leash tied to a hook in the wall downstairs where his crate is not within eyesight and if he's ignoring me he gets 10 minutes on the leash.. It seems to work pretty well..

Yea we'll definitely have to try that.
I don't know what to do about her not obeying commands. She's very good about them when she wants to be. But recently she just barks back at me. So we're trying leaving the room, coming back when she is quiet and trying again. We don't want to tell her something 5 or 6 or 7 times before she does it cause she'll just learn she doesn't have to do it on the first command.
We will definitely try the leash thing and see how it goes! Glad to hear it's working good for Kaiser!

>>If she's not obeying obviously ignoring her won't work, I think ignorring is more for behaviours where she is demanding something of you.. I don't know, the time out thing confuses me too.. With Kaiser I keep a leash tied to a hook in the wall downstairs where his crate is not within eyesight and if he's ignoring me he gets 10 minutes on the leash.. It seems to work pretty well..

>>>>>>>>>>

It sounds like you are looking for a way to punish the dog, with time out being a no-force option. I just don't believe that punishment works very well with dogs. We need to train them in what we DO want them to do. Then whenever the dog is doing something you do not like, you switch the dog into a behavior you DO like.

The reason punishment might work with your human children (I'm not a parent, so I can't give any examples of that!) but not with your dog, is that your dog does not have verbal language. You can talk until you are blue in the face, but the dog is not going to understand about punishment. What the dog does think about why you're doing that to him will be a very confused message.

The focus needs to be on GETTING THE BEHAVIOR YOU WANT FROM YOUR DOG. You don't get that behavior by trying to teach him NOT to do things. You get it by teaching him the behaviors you do want. So that eventually when he thinks of chewing, he thinks ahhhh, I have this toy and that toy and that toy, which toy am I in the mood for? I think I'll chew my ________toy today. And he picks up that toy and settles down to chew it. This takes times.

In the meantime, you watch the dog and redirect him INSTANTLY into an acceptable behavior anytime he starts an unacceptable one, with no punishment. You only intervene enough to switch him to the right behavior. If you linger to "make him feel sorry for what he has done," that is bad training and bad for his temperament, too. You need to take your emotions out of it, and focus on teaching the dog the behaviors that are needed.

The crate is for when you cannot watch the dog. It is a place to keep him safe and not forming bad habits when no one can supervise him. He should not spend an excessive amount of time in the crate. This means that when you are not at work or sound asleep, he needs to be out of that crate with you. He is your number one job until he is trained.

Tough job, I know! But the pup didn't ask to come live at our house. He didn't even ask to be born into this world. These were decisions made for him by someone else. He is at your house because you brought him there, so now it's up to you to give him a good life. In the beginning, that is a LOT of work!
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

Great post Kathy, but how do you make a dog sit or down when he's ignoring you, preferably without using food? I know that you have to make yourself seem like a lot of fun and have him realize that doing what you ask pulls in benefits for himself, but that takes time.. While you're working on that, every time you let him get away with it reinforces the thought that obeying commands is optional, right?

Is there any way to change his behaviour (ignoring you completely) to what you want him to do (sit) without having to touch him? Short of keeping piles of treats in my pockets and having him at my side on a leash at all times I can't figure it out. I can't redirect him if I don't have (and can't get) his attention. I want him to have some time to wander around the house because I know he can be trusted not to do things he shouldn't, but on occasion he ignores a command he knows if he thinks I don't have treats for him. It's been like that from day one. I've been careful to get more than one command executed before each treat and I want to teach him that doing these things does not always mean treats. Praise and petting don't do it for him.

I think this is similar to the problem Jesse is having with Cookie. It's not good to teach them that everything always leads to food, but they ignore you if you don't have food.. What then? Even if he can be trusted in the house, do I have to keep him on a leash for the next few months anyway? And then how do you graduate from commands on the leash to commands off leash? I think that's more what Jesse was trying to get at. If time outs are a bad idea, what is the best (and most realistic and practical) idea?

It's a very complicated process I know but there seem to be so many contradictions..

Cookie is good about obeying commands without food because more often than not, she just gets praise for it. I think we did a good job mixing it up. My problem is when we're playing, if I tell her to sit for her toy, she just barks at me like, "I don't want to sit! I want my toy, give it to me!" In this case, we leave the room, toy in hand and don't give it to her until she sits without barking, but again, I am worried this will teach her she doesn't have to obey on the first command. When we are working on training with treats, the treats stay completely out of site, and when I tell her a command, she just barks, like she just doesn't want to do it. Even if I show her the treat it turns into the same thing as with the toys, "I don't want to sit! I want my treat, give it to me!" But we want her to listen also when there is NO reward, toy or treat, just praise, and then she barks too. Don't get me wrong, if she is calm or tired, she almost always listens, but if she is energetic, she almost always barks at me when I give her a command.
Leah is right, there are so many contridictions out there about time outs and what to do and what not to do when they don't obey. I think if we put her on the leash in the house, she will still bark. I just want to do whats right.

Exactly what I wanted to say.. It's the same with Kaiser. Often he will do what's asked of him with or without food but if he's hyper or excited he just gets too impatient..

IMPATIENT! Thats exactly the word I was looking for. Thank you!

>>Great post Kathy, but how do you make a dog sit or down when he's ignoring you, preferably without using food? I know that you have to make yourself seem like a lot of fun and have him realize that doing what you ask pulls in benefits for himself, but that takes time.. While you're working on that, every time you let him get away with it reinforces the thought that obeying commands is optional, right?
>>
>>Is there any way to change his behaviour (ignoring you completely) to what you want him to do (sit) without having to touch him? Short of keeping piles of treats in my pockets and having him at my side on a leash at all times I can't figure it out. I can't redirect him if I don't have (and can't get) his attention. I want him to have some time to wander around the house because I know he can be trusted not to do things he shouldn't, but on occasion he ignores a command he knows if he thinks I don't have treats for him. It's been like that from day one. I've been careful to get more than one command executed before each treat and I want to teach him that doing these things does not always mean treats. Praise and petting don't do it for him.
>>
>>I think this is similar to the problem Jesse is having with Cookie. It's not good to teach them that everything always leads to food, but they ignore you if you don't have food.. What then? Even if he can be trusted in the house, do I have to keep him on a leash for the next few months anyway? And then how do you graduate from commands on the leash to commands off leash? I think that's more what Jesse was trying to get at. If time outs are a bad idea, what is the best (and most realistic and practical) idea?
>>
>>It's a very complicated process I know but there seem to be so many contradictions..

>>>>>>>>>

You train on leash for a long time and it becomes such a habit for the dog to do it right that eventually the leash doesn't matter. You don't guide the dog with the leash, you keep it loose. I do touch my dogs in training. I do use some food, but not as much as I expect you're being taught to use. I'm not a clicker trainer. I work with my dogs every day from day one to develop their ability and my ability for using mutual touch. Then I can physically guide the dog's body into positions.

If you are going to train the dog to work for treats, you don't start making them intermittent this soon. And you will never completely be able to wean off treats using those methods. Clicker trainers carry clicker and treats at all times, forever. Whatever system you use for training your dog, you will have to reinforce the training with that reward forever, or the behavior will eventually fade away.

One system I feel is a good one, and a balanced one that is kind to the dog and effective, is the Volhard method of training. It is not completely "no force," but neither is it in any way inhumane.

We humans tend to be "all or nothing." First we want to use NO corrections, and then when that doesn't work, we get furious at the dog and start being abusive. The best way to train the dog is neither extreme. I know a lot trainers who claim to use no corrections, and actually they do. It's just very unpopular to say so at this point. It's doing a disservice to owners who need more help learning to train their dogs.

There is a lot of middle ground between all clicker and treats with no corrections, versus abusive training methods. But unfortunately, many dog owners these days are getting a raw deal because they are not being taught how to actually control their dogs. We are having too many dogs put to sleep as a result, dogs who could have been saved with effective training.

One place to start is by grooming your dog's entire body every day. As you develop the ability to handle your dog all over (including trimming toenails once a week or so), you and your dog will be much closer and a lot of the training will begin to fall into place better.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

Thanks so much Kathy!
I am a bit confused though. We always gave her acceptible things to do when she was doing unacceptable things, like if she was mouthing, we gave her a toy. But what about not obeying commands? Should I just give up after the first command? Won't that just teach her she doesn't have to listen to me? Not obeying is unacceptable behaivior, but I don't understand how I can replace that with good behavior, when the only good behavior is obeying. With everything else she is fine, the mouthing has subsided drastically, she doesn't chew on anything that doesn't belong to her. The only problem we are having is the barking, which is due to her not obeying commands. Thats almost always when she barks. That and when she wants to play. That we can fix, she doesn't get to play until she is quiet. But I don't don't know what to do about her not obeying commands. I know why she is doing it, she's in her "terrible twos" I saw the same thing in my nephew, they get "deaf". But that doesn't mean she doesn't have to obey until she grows out of the phase.
Thank you so much, Kathy. I understand what you are saying, it's just that there are times when I don't think giving her another option would apply, because with obeying, she either obeys or she doesn't. What do you do when she doesn't? We've been leaving the room, coming back and giving her the command again, but again, I wonder if this will also just teach her she doesn't have to do things on the first command.
Thanks for the advise Kathy...sorry for being so nit picky, I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing. Thanks!

will try to answer (?) one old training rule is don't give a command you can't enforce. now add the concept of a hungry dog will work for food. maybe if you set aside specific training sessions & your dog is very hungry then you will get lots of successes. this is probably going back to when you were first training & now your dog 'knows' the commands, but maybe you haven't done enough repetitions because the best training result is an automatic responce. like the old pavlov's dog thing. (I'm old, folks so excuse me!) the dog hears the bell & because food has followed that sound, the dog will salivate at the sound of the bell. with repeated command treat sessions, your dog will be almost brainwashed so that he hears the command & his body responds. if you are giving the commands just during routine play or hanging out time & getting poor/no response, just stop giving the commands then. they become meaningless if there is no response. the part about using the crate for time out, is like I made a HUGE difference between the time out crate & the regular comfy fun safe crate. The regular crate is large, full of cushions, toys or treats, praise & the timeout crate is a small plastic one with no cushion. The way I did it, involved no yelling or rough handling, was just a robotic timed brief (15seconds) repetitive 'isolating' act that was done for aggressive biting. I assumed the mindset/attitude that I was training not punishing. I can see that it sounds punishing & could definately be done in a very negative way with negative consequenses. For us, it worked in one (long) session & no repeat biting, she was never afraid & no problems with her loving her crate, 2 & 1/2 yrs later. I don't mean to be telling you to use this method, just trying to clear up some specific questions. I will add that persistance pays off & if you keep working, I think you'll be suprised at the good results. I do sympathize with your confusion, cos I had the same doubts when I first started training 'again' using the treat positive methods. Have you tried using a squirt water bottle for the barking? & once again, my dogs swim & love bathes & will even drink out of the squirt bottle, but will behave if I get it out to squirt them.

>>Thanks so much Kathy!
>>I am a bit confused though. We always gave her acceptible things to do when she was doing unacceptable things, like if she was mouthing, we gave her a toy. But what about not obeying commands? Should I just give up after the first command? Won't that just teach her she doesn't have to listen to me? Not obeying is unacceptable behaivior, but I don't understand how I can replace that with good behavior, when the only good behavior is obeying. With everything else she is fine, the mouthing has subsided drastically, she doesn't chew on anything that doesn't belong to her. The only problem we are having is the barking, which is due to her not obeying commands. Thats almost always when she barks. That and when she wants to play. That we can fix, she doesn't get to play until she is quiet. But I don't don't know what to do about her not obeying commands. I know why she is doing it, she's in her "terrible twos" I saw the same thing in my nephew, they get "deaf". But that doesn't mean she doesn't have to obey until she grows out of the phase.
>>Thank you so much, Kathy. I understand what you are saying, it's just that there are times when I don't think giving her another option would apply, because with obeying, she either obeys or she doesn't. What do you do when she doesn't? We've been leaving the room, coming back and giving her the command again, but again, I wonder if this will also just teach her she doesn't have to do things on the first command.
>>Thanks for the advise Kathy...sorry for being so nit picky, I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing. Thanks!

>>>>>>>>>>>>

You seriously need to find a good trainer! It's not up to the dog whether or not to obey a command. A command is a command, and you don't give a command unless you are ready and able to make sure the dog does it. For me that would mean putting the dog's body into the sit position or whatever. My hands are on the dogs so much in love that this is not harsh treatment at all. But they know that if I say it is to happen, it will happen.

A command is not a magic word. A command doesn't make anything happen. YOU make it happen! You need a better trainer, I kid you not!
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

Thanks, Kathy. Sorry for being such a pain in the butt, but I really truly appreciate every bit of advise you give me.
I feel so stupid for not having thought of that myself. If she doesn't do it, make her do it. I do that when we are outside and meeting someone, I literally have to hold her in a sit position because she won't do it on her own. I never thought of doing it at other times.
Last night was awesome, she did everything I told her to do. I swear, everytime I post a message about a problem, she gets better on her own. :-P but I will definitely do what you say and we will get a trainer.
Thanks so much, Kathy!!!!

Please, take it from me, get references and check them before you decide on a trainer! No matter how wonderful they might seem, they may well have no idea what they're talking about..

After reading your other message, I am going to be extra careful picking out a trainer, especially since Cookie is half GSD. I am still fuming about what he said. He should lose his job. Racist jerk.

>>After reading your other message, I am going to be extra careful picking out a trainer, especially since Cookie is half GSD. I am still fuming about what he said. He should lose his job. Racist jerk.

>>>>>>>>>>..

Dog training was practically invented for the German Shepherd breed. Of course, that also means that you really do NOT want to own a German Shepherd and not train the dog. No, no, no, you do not want an untrained German Shepherd!
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

Well it makes sense since so many GSD's are police dogs, they're so trainable.
I have to say, over the past two days, the barking and pulling has almost completely subsided! I am shopping around for a trainer, it's not as easy as I thought. Most of them are at least an hour away, except for PetSmart, but I would rather not go to a big chain company that doesn't care about anything except making money, plus they use clicker training and we don't want to use clicker training, like you said, we don't want to have to carry a clicker and treats everywhere we go!

I don't know anything about the particular petsmart where you are but I worked at one for a couple of years and absolutely fell in love with the way that they train.. I always worked on Fridays and since I took the bus I always got there very early for my shift so I would watch the first Friday class each week..

Of course it will very from trainer to trainer but the progress that those dogs made with our main trainer was phenomenal. She would stay for an hour after class answering any more questions, and really cared about the dogs and the progress that they were making. The class times alternated, so it would be 8 weeks of puppy class, then 8 weeks of intro, then 8 weeks of advanced, etc. They go through months of training before they're even allowed to sit in on a class, and then they do that for another couple of months before being allowed to help, then a month or so of that before they're allowed to take a class..

As for the clicker training, if you do it right the dog can be weaned off of it altogether.. The way the trainer at work taught it was that you used it until you were consistently getting the response you wanted. Then you would gradually start replacing the click with "good" or whatever praise word you choose, and then start using the treats intermittently.. You'll have to use the treats occasionally fora long time, possibly the life of the dog, but I don't think that's a bad idea.. Treats shouldn't stop coming just because the dog is doing what you want her to do..

Not trying to persuade you into anything and like I said I don't know anything about the way your petsmart works but if it seems like the only option you might consider sitting in on a class or two and meeting the trainer.. The trainer should be very willing to talk to you and in most cases they don't mind having people watch as long as you're not doing anything to distract the dogs in the class (I definitely wouldn't bring Cookie )

If you're lucky the trainer will be like ours was.. She raised puppies for the guide dog association and would bring them to work with her for us to babysit while she went for lunch or taught a class.. They were just so cute, the best behaved and most obedient little puppies you've ever seen

I wish I still lived in that city, she'd have turned Kaiser around real quick..

That sounds awesome! I will definitely sit in on a couple of classes. As for the distraction, the area is right in the middle of the store so I don't think they would mind.
But like you said, you could have just been lucky and had a really good trainer, but I will definitely look into it more!
Thank you so much for the tip! I am going to forward your entire message to my bf too and see what he thinks. Thanks!

I forgot to mention that Cathy at least liked it best if someone called before sitting in on a class.. That way you can find out the times for the specific class you want to see and you don't wind up coming all the way out just to see the first class. The first class you leave the dog at home and the trainer explains what you'll be working on and asks everyone for the biggest problem you're having with your dog. Then she works those problems into the 8 weeks as best she can..

It just wouldn't be very informative for you to sit in on the first class, since there aren't any dogs present..

It's inexpensive too compared to other places. In Canadian funds it was $99 for 8 weeks, once a week.. Since you're American it would be less..

And finally, I don't know if your trainer will do this but in most cases our trainer would give the option of clicker training or not.. She stayed a little while extra after the first class to explain to the clickers what they would have to do differently and then taught the rest of the class as normal, with some people clicking and others not.. Most people chose the clicker though because it's so efficient and some dogs seem to learn a lot faster that way..

Wow! That IS cheap! Everywhere else around here is at least $150! I will definitely call before we go, I want to get prices and everything anyways.
I really hope the PetSmart we have here follows the same polocies as the one you worked at did. What city was it in? Maybe I'll just move there. :-P jk. Boston gets pretty cold, but I don't know if I could take the winters up there!
Thanks again for your help!
Oh, did I tell you I think we solved Cookie's pulling? Check out the "training methods" post in the Training and Obediance Forum.

>>Well it makes sense since so many GSD's are police dogs, they're so trainable.
>>I have to say, over the past two days, the barking and pulling has almost completely subsided! I am shopping around for a trainer, it's not as easy as I thought. Most of them are at least an hour away, except for PetSmart, but I would rather not go to a big chain company that doesn't care about anything except making money, plus they use clicker training and we don't want to use clicker training, like you said, we don't want to have to carry a clicker and treats everywhere we go!

>>>>>>>>>

Carrying a clicker and treats everywhere would not be that big a deal if it would work for training the dog. Some problems respond to it, some don't.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

>>Thanks, Kathy. Sorry for being such a pain in the butt, but I really truly appreciate every bit of advise you give me.
>>I feel so stupid for not having thought of that myself. If she doesn't do it, make her do it. I do that when we are outside and meeting someone, I literally have to hold her in a sit position because she won't do it on her own. I never thought of doing it at other times.
>>Last night was awesome, she did everything I told her to do. I swear, everytime I post a message about a problem, she gets better on her own. :-P but I will definitely do what you say and we will get a trainer.
>>Thanks so much, Kathy!!!!

>>>>>>>>>>>

Glad to hear it! It is so sad to me to hear that so many trainers and instructors are out there letting people down now. It used to be that obedience classes were too rough for some of the dogs, but at least they did teach us how to control the dogs. As a result, the dogs were able to go on and live good lives with us. I hope trainers start getting their act together to really do their jobs again.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

Thanks so much!
She is getting much better about obeying commands. If she doesn't do it after two commands, she doesn't get the toy, or the food, or whatever the reward is going to be, even if it is just praise. If she doesn't listen, I completely ignore her, she'll follow me and whimper a little, and then as soon as she is relaxed we do it all over again. It seems to be working very well, she almost always listens on the first command, and hardly ever barks I think she is learning that barking gives her the opposite result of what she is looking for. We just needed to be more persistant.
It's very difficult to find a trainer that I agree with everything they say. I found a great trainer, but he's an hour away, and he uses a choke chain. Everything except that sounded great, but we don't want to use a choke chain, that is NOT positive rienforcement. Other than that he sounds great, he only does private training sessions, with a 2 hour consultation before the sessions start. But I don't think we're going to go with him, I really don't want to use the choke chain. And he says ultimately, he is training the dog to be able to walk off the leash which we DO NOT want.

>>Thanks so much!
>>She is getting much better about obeying commands. If she doesn't do it after two commands, she doesn't get the toy, or the food, or whatever the reward is going to be, even if it is just praise. If she doesn't listen, I completely ignore her, she'll follow me and whimper a little, and then as soon as she is relaxed we do it all over again. It seems to be working very well, she almost always listens on the first command, and hardly ever barks I think she is learning that barking gives her the opposite result of what she is looking for. We just needed to be more persistant.
>>It's very difficult to find a trainer that I agree with everything they say. I found a great trainer, but he's an hour away, and he uses a choke chain. Everything except that sounded great, but we don't want to use a choke chain, that is NOT positive rienforcement. Other than that he sounds great, he only does private training sessions, with a 2 hour consultation before the sessions start. But I don't think we're going to go with him, I really don't want to use the choke chain. And he says ultimately, he is training the dog to be able to walk off the leash which we DO NOT want.

>>>>>>>>

A slip collar, especially a nylon one, is not inherently cruel. It's misuse of it that is inhumane. If a dog has any aggression problems (or is unknown to the trainer) it's important that the dog be wearing a collar that will enable the trainer to control the dog and stop him from biting someone in the training situation. A buckle collar will slip off virtually any dog who gets wild enough. Dogs should be trained to the point of being able to walk off the leash and do all other commands off the leash, too, but that doesn't mean you take the dog off leash in public. You do need the off-leash control at home, though. I know nothing about this trainer and would not try to evaluate him over the Internet. But you might consider asking if you can go without your dog and watch a training session before deciding not to use him.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com