Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It's been awhile so here's an update. Our, now 5 month old, chow hit 55 pounds at his most recent check-up. We usually offer him a treat as a reward for going into his age with no problems. Lately he's started growling when we do this. I'm talking a real nasty growl showing teeth and everything. My wife will spend 30-45 minutes going over this with him. He lunges at the door and gets real bad. I got fed up with it and popped him one. He calmed down allot faster. I'm sure someone will curse me for it but so far no advice I've gotten here or anywhere has helped stop his growling and biting. About a month ago my wife was working with him. He was getting worse and wound up biting her. Her reaction was a punch to the mouth loosening a tooth. It was a baby tooth and the rest came out shortly thereafter. Don't get me wrong, we continuously use positive reinforcement but some things cannot be tolerated. This approach is very seldom used as in only during a threatened situation. 2 weeks ago my daughter and I were sitting on the couch. He was laying on the floor roughly 10 feet away. She motioned to get up from the couch and he jumped at her growling and baring his teeth. My reaction was to attack him first so he didn't hurt my daughter. Other times we can walk right by him with no incident. Actually that is the majority of the time. He's excellent when away from the home and almost always at home. Some days though, he's a terd! We started dog training classes yesterday and they said I may need 1 on 1 training to deal with him specifically for the aggression. He is excellent at clearing the house. We'll here an unrecognized sound, sometimes just a bum elsewhere in the house, and I tell him "What was that? Go see!" He'll search every entrance to the house making sure no unknowns ar present. We've had 2 men going around the neighborhood posing as laborers. They'll ask if we need assistance with things, then pull out a gun and rob people. Before the info went out they came to my house asking the same types of questions. I sat Bruno down and told him to "Watch em". As I spoke with the man he kept looking at him, then me. When I told him I wasn't interested he left without incident, still looking over his shoulder. He's an excellent protector and I really want to find a better way to deal with his biting and growling. I anyone knows of a better way to handle this, please let me know.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

A major risk of handling your dog this way is that he will turn the aggression on those he considers weaker than himself, including your daughter. If she tries punching him, too, he's going to win that fight.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

Take it from me, I know what I'm talking about here - you need to shell out a few hundred dollars and get that dog to a god behaviourist. My dog is only 30lbs and it took him attacking my 15 year old sister's face for me to finally realize it was either the behaviourist or he would be put down.

You're absolutely right, those things cannot be tolerated from the dog. But neither can the equivalent be tolerated from you and when he gets a little bigger you're going to have a much worse problem on your hands. I shudder to think of the damage a chow will do fully grown. If you keep "popping him one" he'll take you down as soon as he's able. Dogs have a 4:1 strength ratio with the average man. That means your 55lb dog has the strength of the average 220lb man. A male chow can weigh up to 70lbs, and be as strong as a 280lb man. and even if you can take him on, chances are your wife and daughter can't. Not to mention he's a baby now, his jaw strength isn't developed. In a few more months there will be a lot more force behind that bite.

It sounds like resource guarding, same as my dog. He was guarding his sleeping spot when your daughter got up, he's guarding his crate when you put him there. Please get this dog to a behaviourist. I'll tell you, it's a lot of money and will take a lot of time to rehab this dog, but he's still very young so there's a good chance that it will work. My dog and I have been following a behaviourist's regimen for two weeks and are already seeing results, but then Kaiser was never aggressive toward his family, only other people. Otherwise I can almost guarantee he'll be put down under traumatic circumstances after attacking someone. Animal control people are not kind to the vicious dogs they euthanize..

I spent a long time debating whether my dog would be better off put to sleep, and if I hadn't been able to afford the money and time to get him to the behaviourist I would have had him euthanized. That behaviour from a dog is unacceptable and being violent toward him will make it much worse in the long run..

That teaching him things like "watch 'em!" and "what was that?! Go see!" will encourage aggression and guarding behaviours. Dogs naturally will guard their home and family, but your dog is guarding against your family as well.. All dogs should be discouraged from being overly protective about the home. He'll still protect your home if someone intrudes but he's less likely to generalize the aggression that you are encouraging to members of the family. It will take extra work with your boy though, because he's already generalizing his aggression..

Your actions are going to escalate the problem until this dog seriously injures someone. Additonally the LAST THING ON EARTH you want is to encourage THIS dog to do anything approaching guarding behaviors. It only escalates his feelings of being in charge. Either get to a university vet school behaviorist and get this behavior controlled WITHOUT the physical response, or put the dog down. Period.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]

To be honest I am surprised at the responses. I really expected to be called all kinds of names etc. but you ALL gave great advice. I have noticed he has slowed with his groiwling after our most recent of episodes however I understand where you are coming from. He did seem to be more persistant with my youngest. His basic obedience class starts this Tuesday (well, this is the first day I actually bring him with me.) When we first found this place they had already started a class and would not let us in since we weren't there from the start so we had to wait 8 weeks. The woman running my class suggested one on one training and I'll more than likely go the direction she points me. I gotta tell ya, it's so awsome to see him clear the house at my command but again, I can see what you mean about when he's bigger. I'm REALLY going to try to just allow him to guard the house on his own without my coaxing. He's really a hug teddy bear away from the house and with as much as we like to bring him places I guess he needs to be. I have a question. When out and about, if he gets used to all kinds of people when we're away from home, will he still have the same protective qualities should someone try to harm my family. I don't exactly live in the best neighborhood and we like to go for walks. As of right now they are still searching for 2 men who have been robbing people at their doorstep. If I'm outside I try to make sure my dog is too. Just curious, and your advice will be taken seriously. Till next time...
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Some of you mentioned putting him down. Here's more info. In November, 04 we found a 4 month chow pup one of our distant neighbors had. The dog was on a 3 foot chain connected to a dog crate outside. There was a piece of carpet in the crate for comfort. This was all the dog had. The owner called him Demon. We took the dog knowing he was a biter. We felt that a loving home would turn this dog around. The owner admitted to tormenting the dog because it bit him as a baby. He purchased special formula because the other puppies would not let him eat so he bottle fed the dog. It bit him one time so he firgured if the dog is not going to be greatful, ---- him. He abused the puppy and messed with it's food. We took him home. He was so cute and cuddley. We put his crate in our kitchen and laid down a fresh clean blanket for him. He went in that crate and changed! I couldn't do anything with him growling and snapping violently. I covered my arm and reached in. I was bit probably 50 times in a matter of 1 minute. Throughout the week there were 2 occasions where I retaleated for being bitten but I spent ALLOT of time trying with that puppy. At the end of the week, and after many suggestions from family and other sources, we took the dog to a shelter. I feel I made serious progress as he would eat from my hand, I could pet him when he ate, he didn't try to bite me when I reached for him etc but everyone said "He'll get bigger" and "he's a liability". There's a 99.9% chance he was put down. This pup we paid $500 for. Money shouldn't have much to do with it but to us, it means allot more because we have so little. We had one dog put down and I felt like crap, I think we owe it to Bruno and the other one (Niko) to not give up. It's as if putting Bruno down is not an option. I'll spend the money and the time but sometimes I get frustrated.

Here's a picture of our first chow (Pivo) and my youngest back in October 04. We put him down a week later due to a failing liver. During his last days Pivo's abdomin would fill with fluid to the point of 1-2 liters a week. He was our very first chow and was an absolute angel. He was a horrible watch dog (let strangers into the house) and tricked us into thinking all chows would be like he was. We sure miss him. Thanx for reading!

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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Well, it's great that you're willing to try so hard with this boy.. It really is worth it if you put in the time and money..

If you are out for a walk with him, no matter how he is with strangers, he will step in if he thinks that you are being hurt. My dog won't let anyone except my family and boyfriend within about 5' of me unless I tell him "down/stay". I do nothing to encourage it, but I do like it in some respects. At a family Christmas party a few years ago my grandfather was tickling my little sister (who was about 10) and of course she was screaming and laughing, and my dad's dog went right for my grandfather's throat.. They're very responsive and perceptive toward human sounds and body language, and very loyal to their families. Not to mention unless there is a gun involved, a dog his size (and chows of course look a lot bigger than they are with all that fur) will likely be enough deterrent for any passersby. If the robber has a gun, however, no dog is going to help you be it in the home or not, unless it's by barking to alarm you. My uncle works for a security and insurance company and has seen all types of dogs (even a couple as large as mastiffs and St. Bernards) "taken care of" by robbers. If someone wants to rob you they will, dog or not. The only help a dog can be is to bark to let you know something is happening. The dog will deter stupid kids from trying anything though..

About putting him down.. As long as you're willing to put the time and money into it, it likely won't come to that. But you really do have to stop hitting this dog. Even if it slows him down now it won't for long and it will give him irreversible mental disorders, just like abusing a child. A dog in that state is deadly. Listen to the trainer, but see if you can find a behaviourist. Dog trainers don't have the psychological and biological background that they need to work with dogs like these, and it's not obedience that you need. You need the equivalent to a psychologist, not a teacher. Talking to your vet is a great starting point, they will likely be able to recommend someone. If that fails, do a search on the internet. Some behaviourists may want you to consider having the dog on drugs at first. There are different types of drugs available for this, Prozac is one of the safest. If it comes to that ask what type of drug they're giving your dog, if it's an SSRI like Prozac, that's good. They're the most gentle on your dog's system. If it's an MAO inhibitor, say no thank you and walk away.

Your dog still sounds like he has a great shot at being somewhat normal. Keep in mind that nothing will "heal" or "fix" this though. He'll have to be managed for the rest of his life.. Follow the recommendations from your behaviourist. Managing for your dog might just mean always keeping him on a fairly short leash outside, or it might mean he needs to be muzzled when certain people are present, fed only when he is in his crate, etc. He will probably never be trustworthy - you will always have to be careful. But the fact that he is stranger friendly is an obscenely good sign. That means that his problem lies within the family which is 100% easier to deal with..

Good luck! I'm only a couple of weeks into our program but I'm seeing fantastic results already, and it's so worth it.. If you have any more questions let me know..

>>Well, it's great that you're willing to try so hard with this boy.. It really is worth it if you put in the time and money..
>>
>>If you are out for a walk with him, no matter how he is with strangers, he will step in if he thinks that you are being hurt. My dog won't let anyone except my family and boyfriend within about 5' of me unless I tell him "down/stay". I do nothing to encourage it, but I do like it in some respects. At a family Christmas party a few years ago my grandfather was tickling my little sister (who was about 10) and of course she was screaming and laughing, and my dad's dog went right for my grandfather's throat.. They're very responsive and perceptive toward human sounds and body language, and very loyal to their families. Not to mention unless there is a gun involved, a dog his size (and chows of course look a lot bigger than they are with all that fur) will likely be enough deterrent for any passersby. If the robber has a gun, however, no dog is going to help you be it in the home or not, unless it's by barking to alarm you. My uncle works for a security and insurance company and has seen all types of dogs (even a couple as large as mastiffs and St. Bernards) "taken care of" by robbers. If someone wants to rob you they will, dog or not. The only help a dog can be is to bark to let you know something is happening. The dog will deter stupid kids from trying anything though..
>>
>>About putting him down.. As long as you're willing to put the time and money into it, it likely won't come to that. But you really do have to stop hitting this dog. Even if it slows him down now it won't for long and it will give him irreversible mental disorders, just like abusing a child. A dog in that state is deadly. Listen to the trainer, but see if you can find a behaviourist. Dog trainers don't have the psychological and biological background that they need to work with dogs like these, and it's not obedience that you need. You need the equivalent to a psychologist, not a teacher. Talking to your vet is a great starting point, they will likely be able to recommend someone. If that fails, do a search on the internet. Some behaviourists may want you to consider having the dog on drugs at first. There are different types of drugs available for this, Prozac is one of the safest. If it comes to that ask what type of drug they're giving your dog, if it's an SSRI like Prozac, that's good. They're the most gentle on your dog's system. If it's an MAO inhibitor, say no thank you and walk away.
>>
>>Your dog still sounds like he has a great shot at being somewhat normal. Keep in mind that nothing will "heal" or "fix" this though. He'll have to be managed for the rest of his life.. Follow the recommendations from your behaviourist. Managing for your dog might just mean always keeping him on a fairly short leash outside, or it might mean he needs to be muzzled when certain people are present, fed only when he is in his crate, etc. He will probably never be trustworthy - you will always have to be careful. But the fact that he is stranger friendly is an obscenely good sign. That means that his problem lies within the family which is 100% easier to deal with..
>>
>>Good luck! I'm only a couple of weeks into our program but I'm seeing fantastic results already, and it's so worth it.. If you have any more questions let me know..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Okay, first, I live in a very dog-friendly area, and I've never seen anyone walking a Chow on a leash. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe Debra can answer.

And second, Leah, I don't know where you got the idea that a dog friendly to strangers and aggressive to the family is less of a risk than a dog who is aggressive to strangers and friendly to the family. That is absolutely untrue. The dogs who bite within the family circle are far more dangerous.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

I didn't say that he's less of a risk, I meant that it's one less thing to worry about if they don't have to work on training with strangers. With the family they will be around to train with - it's much more difficult to get people the dog doesn't know to help with training.

I by no means meant to imply that he's less of a risk - as I mentioned in my first post it's a bad sign that he's only biting at the family. I just meant it could make training easier in that way..

>>Okay, first, I live in a very dog-friendly area, and I've never seen anyone walking a Chow on a leash. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe Debra can answer.

LOL I know many who walk their dogs. I don't simply because Katana learned she can back out of a collar and I don't trust prongs to hold together. Her only walks are out to the car. I guess I could shave her neck so chokes would be secure, but such is life.

>>And second, Leah, I don't know where you got the idea that a dog friendly to strangers and aggressive to the family is less of a risk than a dog who is aggressive to strangers and friendly to the family. That is absolutely untrue. The dogs who bite within the family circle are far more dangerous.

A dog that is dangerous to the family will be dangerous to the public. They aren't aggressive to the public simply because the public hasn't pushed the wrong buttons yet. I have to agree... a dog who is dangerous to the family are the most dangerous of all. A dog who cannot be trusted with the family has no business being allowed ANY access to the public. its simply absolutely irresponsible.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]

>>If you are out for a walk with him, no matter how he is with strangers, he will step in if he thinks that you are being hurt.

Don't bet on it. Ever. I could now give you about six stories off the top of my head from TRAINERS, with personal protection trained dogs, who did't stp up to the plate. Don't ever bet on it. Talk to Liz Bauer who was brutally raped while her protection trained GSD looked on. Talk to Marie whose professionally trained $10,000 malinois looked on when a burglar broke in and beat her and robbed the house leaving only when neighbors called the police and he heard the sirens.

A dogs most counted on protection is simply barking and being there... the question of them maybe protecting you. But once someone actually is attacking, don't ever count on your dog to protect you unless that dog is trained AND has come under real attack (not set up training) and responded.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]

>> I was bit probably 50 times in a matter of 1 minute

Your daughter is beautiful, btw.

A dog that seriously intent on biting SHOULD be put down, period.

You paid 500, but you could end up paying 1000 or more to retrain him... can you afford it?

But the bottom line isn't money, it is safety. And after all the things I sent you that you are still responding physically makes me very concerned that you are not open to doing what will make this dog safe. Physical responses will make him more dangerous because he is just going to bide his time til he can take you (or someone else). If you can't train smart and safe, if you cannot refrain from using physical responses, then this dog is a liability far beyond any amount of money you paid.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]