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Some of where the frustration comes from

CaptainHook2 Apr 19, 2005 01:15 PM

Hi everyone it's Susan,

Eric was telling me some of what has been going on here, so I thought I would take a break from my research paper and take a look.

I can understand everyones, yours and Eric's, frustration. Many of you have a wealth of good advice and experience, and know what you are talking about. You give it, provide links, and you still here of someone doing what you say they shouldn't. We admit that we may have gotten in over our heads. Pivo (our first chow) was perfect - he was a good size, didn't bother my husband's allergies, and had the most awsome temperment. This experience is why we decided to get another chow; WOW, what a difference. As for what we are going through here. We have listened to you and read the links. Because of this input we feel it is more resource guarding than dominance as we first thought. We work with him EVERY day using tips and suggestions you provide; however, some are just not working. We are not experts and we do make mistakes. The day he bit me as I was feeding, I did punch him. This was strickly a relfex and I realized it was wrong as soon as it happened and it has never happened again. People keep saying, "No, you can't do that!" I understand, as I said it was over before I realized what I had done. I have read the article on resource guarding to many times to count but it doens't say what you do when the dog is aggressive and coming at you. Everyone agrees we can not allow him to be aggressive to us, but no one can tell us what to do as it is happening. This is where we falter. Usually when I find a non-aggressive way to stop his growling/aggression during meals or with his crate it only lasts about one to two weeks then it is no longer effective. Right now during meals I sit on a cooler or the couch, he sits between my legs (my right one next to/over his hind quarters), and hold his dish. If he growls I tell him no. If he growls again I tell him to go away, I hold the bowl close to me out of his reach and turn my head from him. He leaves from between my legs and walks around trying to look at me. I tell him down and he will lay down. I ask him if he is ready and he either growls or gets up and comes back to between my legs. If he growls I turn my face again. Wait. Then again ask if he is ready. This has been working for almost a week. The amount of times and intensity of the growling is demishing. By past history I should have up to another week before I have to try something else.

As for Bruno being off the leash around strangers I do have to agree with you and I have told Eric that. The part where we tell Bruno to "go see" I didn't see as an aggression enhanser, but thought of it more as a form of hide and seek. Usually we know that it is one of us or the cat and tell him to go see in a playful way. Whoever he finds plays with him and gives him luvins when he finds them. This was a misuderstanding on our part. We know we can't play games such as tug-o-war; however, hide-and-seek was a suggested game and this was one way we played. He has never barked during it and he prances wagging his tail just like when we play fetch. Finding out that to a dog it is an aggressive act was a surprise to us. This is one of the reasons we come back to this forum and provide updates on what we are doing so we can get feed back.

As of now Eric and Bruno are going to dog training classes (unfortunatly we had to wait for another session to begin)and Bruno has an appointment on April 29th to be neutered. We are hoping between the two and us working with him daily we will be able to get these problems under control. A question I would like to ask is: Should we wait to see if this combination works (our vet said it would help) or find a behavioralist now. Eric and I have discussed it and agree that a behavioralist may be our only way. If we wait to see if the classes and nuetering work, how long should be wait? One person told me they had their dog neutered and it was 6 months before they saw results (vet told them they had to let the hormones work themselves out). When it is time to find a behavioralist what qualifications do you look for? Are they supposed to have a degree or be affiliated/reccomended by an organization? I will keep in mind and print the post about medicating him and the types offered. I would like to start looking for one now so that when the time comes we know where to go and get an idea of the cost so we can start budgeting for it.

I will be the first to admit we are not perfect but we are committed to do what we can. Eric and I dissagree on some issues but agree that we are in this for whatever it takes. I had been leaving most of the training, decissions, and research stuff up to Eric due to my research, pending finals, and graduation. I do take part in working with Bruno everyday; however, I will start getting more involved very soon.

Talk to you later,

Susan
-----
DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Replies (2)

DebraDownSth Apr 19, 2005 02:32 PM

>>Hi everyone it's Susan

>>We are not experts and we do make mistakes. The day he bit me as I was feeding, I did punch him. This was strickly a relfex and I realized it was wrong as soon as it happened and it has never happened again. People keep saying, "No, you can't do that!" I understand, as I said it was over before I realized what I had done. I have read the article on resource guarding to many times to count but it doens't say what you do when the dog is aggressive and coming at you.

===========================

Hi Susan!

Okay first things first.

As we discussed on the phone, a dog actually launching an attack is a serious issue and nope, I don't blame you for hitting him. I'd have taken him out... he'd have been on the ground wondering about the stars he was seeing.

But Eric described more incidents. When a dog goes after people repeatedly, you have a problem that no neutering (unless you shove hand down throat and extract them that way) is going to effect more than minimally. Your vet is wrong. It might help it not escalate hormonally but the issue here is obviously temperament, not just hormones. While the number one biting dog is an unneutered male, the issue is also that they are primarily OUTSIDE dogs and owned by idiots. Neutering doesn't stop them from biting or change their temperament, it just removes some of the hormonal fuel.

You need a behaviorist. Your best bet is to contact the closest university vet school and ask who they recommend. They should have at least one or more on staff. You should then call the closest chow club and find out who THEY recommend as there may be someone with less education but more chow experience.

That nothing works on this dog for more than a couple of weeks is one of 2 things.

1. he starts escalting and instead of just totally insisting and staying with the program you switch (I would, btw, remove the food first offense. Next meal, another chance. If he misses a few meals, he will get the idea. Right now what you are doing is like telling a child you are going to count to 3... why count? They offend, they get punished. They don't come, they get punished. People who promptly follow demand with consequences have better behaved children and animals.)

2. he really is such an opportunistic aggressor that he needs to be put down as he is not going to be safe for your family.

Almost always, its number 1.

Thats why you need a behaviorist who can watch you, watch the dog, and determine.
-----
Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.
]

KDiamondDavis Apr 19, 2005 06:31 PM

>>Hi everyone it's Susan,
>>
>>Eric was telling me some of what has been going on here, so I thought I would take a break from my research paper and take a look.
>>
>>I can understand everyones, yours and Eric's, frustration. Many of you have a wealth of good advice and experience, and know what you are talking about. You give it, provide links, and you still here of someone doing what you say they shouldn't. We admit that we may have gotten in over our heads. Pivo (our first chow) was perfect - he was a good size, didn't bother my husband's allergies, and had the most awsome temperment. This experience is why we decided to get another chow; WOW, what a difference. As for what we are going through here. We have listened to you and read the links. Because of this input we feel it is more resource guarding than dominance as we first thought. We work with him EVERY day using tips and suggestions you provide; however, some are just not working. We are not experts and we do make mistakes. The day he bit me as I was feeding, I did punch him. This was strickly a relfex and I realized it was wrong as soon as it happened and it has never happened again. People keep saying, "No, you can't do that!" I understand, as I said it was over before I realized what I had done. I have read the article on resource guarding to many times to count but it doens't say what you do when the dog is aggressive and coming at you. Everyone agrees we can not allow him to be aggressive to us, but no one can tell us what to do as it is happening. This is where we falter. Usually when I find a non-aggressive way to stop his growling/aggression during meals or with his crate it only lasts about one to two weeks then it is no longer effective. Right now during meals I sit on a cooler or the couch, he sits between my legs (my right one next to/over his hind quarters), and hold his dish. If he growls I tell him no. If he growls again I tell him to go away, I hold the bowl close to me out of his reach and turn my head from him. He leaves from between my legs and walks around trying to look at me. I tell him down and he will lay down. I ask him if he is ready and he either growls or gets up and comes back to between my legs. If he growls I turn my face again. Wait. Then again ask if he is ready. This has been working for almost a week. The amount of times and intensity of the growling is demishing. By past history I should have up to another week before I have to try something else.
>>
>>As for Bruno being off the leash around strangers I do have to agree with you and I have told Eric that. The part where we tell Bruno to "go see" I didn't see as an aggression enhanser, but thought of it more as a form of hide and seek. Usually we know that it is one of us or the cat and tell him to go see in a playful way. Whoever he finds plays with him and gives him luvins when he finds them. This was a misuderstanding on our part. We know we can't play games such as tug-o-war; however, hide-and-seek was a suggested game and this was one way we played. He has never barked during it and he prances wagging his tail just like when we play fetch. Finding out that to a dog it is an aggressive act was a surprise to us. This is one of the reasons we come back to this forum and provide updates on what we are doing so we can get feed back.
>>
>>As of now Eric and Bruno are going to dog training classes (unfortunatly we had to wait for another session to begin)and Bruno has an appointment on April 29th to be neutered. We are hoping between the two and us working with him daily we will be able to get these problems under control. A question I would like to ask is: Should we wait to see if this combination works (our vet said it would help) or find a behavioralist now. Eric and I have discussed it and agree that a behavioralist may be our only way. If we wait to see if the classes and nuetering work, how long should be wait? One person told me they had their dog neutered and it was 6 months before they saw results (vet told them they had to let the hormones work themselves out). When it is time to find a behavioralist what qualifications do you look for? Are they supposed to have a degree or be affiliated/reccomended by an organization? I will keep in mind and print the post about medicating him and the types offered. I would like to start looking for one now so that when the time comes we know where to go and get an idea of the cost so we can start budgeting for it.
>>
>>I will be the first to admit we are not perfect but we are committed to do what we can. Eric and I dissagree on some issues but agree that we are in this for whatever it takes. I had been leaving most of the training, decissions, and research stuff up to Eric due to my research, pending finals, and graduation. I do take part in working with Bruno everyday; however, I will start getting more involved very soon.
>>
>>Talk to you later,
>>
>>Susan
>>-----
>>DZ
>>
>>"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>>>>>>>>>>>

The kind of behaviorist to rely on the most is a veterinary behavior specialist--this is a veterinarian board-certified in the specialty of behavior. You need one now. There is no time to waste. Your veterinarian can help you find one.
-----
Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

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