Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Looks like several posts were deleted. This whole thing is really confusing. Everyone claims to know so much and they have supporters yet also have others who critcize them. I'm starting to think this is not a great place for good advice. Who knows.

Anyway, the first class was just as they said. Bruno was so distracted he wouldn't even take his favorite treats for doing what he was supposed to. The trainer was surprised to see he wasn't trying to kill everything. As I explained, he's not a bad dog. There are just times when the switch has flipped. If I ever find this switch I'm going to super glue it to the good dog position.

We had a good class (although he gave a short growl to one of the trainers as she approached us but not at all again the rest of the class) and I fed him when we got home. No growling or other issues but he didn't really eat. Later I was sitting on the couch explaining the past few days to my mom. I got up to check the chicken I was grilling and he growled at me from the floor. I made him get up and move. I sure hope someone could share a better method because this does not stop him from doing it again. The only thing I've seen work, and of course only temporarily or I wouldn't be writing about it, is a smack on the nose. I think we've beat a dead horse on the fact that this is not the way so what is? Can someone give me a few good ways to correct him for just growling at us when we move about our house. Eric

p.s., here's a family pic we recently took

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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>Looks like several posts were deleted. This whole thing is really confusing. Everyone claims to know so much and they have supporters yet also have others who critcize them. I'm starting to think this is not a great place for good advice. Who knows.
>>
>>Anyway, the first class was just as they said. Bruno was so distracted he wouldn't even take his favorite treats for doing what he was supposed to. The trainer was surprised to see he wasn't trying to kill everything. As I explained, he's not a bad dog. There are just times when the switch has flipped. If I ever find this switch I'm going to super glue it to the good dog position.
>>
>>We had a good class (although he gave a short growl to one of the trainers as she approached us but not at all again the rest of the class) and I fed him when we got home. No growling or other issues but he didn't really eat. Later I was sitting on the couch explaining the past few days to my mom. I got up to check the chicken I was grilling and he growled at me from the floor. I made him get up and move. I sure hope someone could share a better method because this does not stop him from doing it again. The only thing I've seen work, and of course only temporarily or I wouldn't be writing about it, is a smack on the nose. I think we've beat a dead horse on the fact that this is not the way so what is? Can someone give me a few good ways to correct him for just growling at us when we move about our house. Eric
>>
>>p.s., here's a family pic we recently took
>>
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>>DZ
>>
>>"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Eric, the problem here is that the situation is far beyond the scope of what a message board can provide. You're getting advice from people who do know what they are talking about, and advice from people who do not. Either way, what you really need is an expert who is WITH YOU IN PERSON. This problem is too complex and too serious for Internet advice. The only helpful advice we can give you is to find the right expert and stick with them.

A veterinary behavior specialist in person can evaluate the dog's temperament, advise you as to the risks you're facing (we can't do that--we can't see that dog or how the family is interacting with him), and get you on a training/behavior modification program. Possibly the temperament is not workable in a family with kids. It will be your decision, though. The expert will only give information, not make that decision for you.

People with aggressive dogs go through some tough emotions, and some of what you've encountered here was a result of that--your emotions as well as theirs. I have an aggressive dog myself, now 12 years old, but she is meticulously trained and has never bitten anyone. She lives a private life here with us, and no children live in or visit our house. If I had kids around, I could not have kept her, because I could not have put them at risk, even though she has never bitten.

The stakes are getting higher and higher for people who own aggressive dogs, because now some states have laws that can send you to prison if your dog kills someone. In every state, you get to pay the bill, big time, for any injury your dog inflicts. Dogs get very confused when people want them to protect and don't have the right dogs and the very sophisticated training skills required.

I hope you'll find the right help in your area soon, and that this will have a happy outcome for your family. Over the Internet, there's no way to predict whether that is likely or not. For more free information about dog behavior, including a method for handling Food Guarding, you're welcome to read the articles in the articles section of my Canine Behavior Series. Here is that link:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

Beautiful snakes, by the way.. Ball Pythons?

Kathy's right, you need help in person. At the very least, go talk to your vet and get a better grasp on the situation from them.

I suppose it's true that here you will get people who know what they're talking about, and people that don't. Or you might believe that nobody really knows what they're talking about, only you can find what works for your family and your dog. Dogs are animals, and not a single person has yet found a way to teach them to speak English or any other human language. So how is it that anyone seems to think they know so much about them? Some people may have found methods that work with a great number of dogs but nothing will work with every dog, and some dogs, like mine, may actually respond very conversely to the conventional methods that you will find here.

After describing every single one of my dog's behaviours it was just about unanimous that Kaiser should be put down because this would not get any better. However I couldn't do it until I had tried everything. I tried the behaviourist, and 3 short weeks later Kaiser is already 60% better. After discussing it with the behaviourist we determined that part of the reason Kaiser acts up is because I was using the same training methods as other people, and psychologically he just does not respond well to them. Although none of the methods we use now involve physical abuse or punishment I'm sure many people would disagree strongly, but we do what works best with Kaiser. He may be a little mentally unstable, but that is changing with different methods of training.

That really drove it home that nobody here knows for sure that what they're suggesting will work, or is the best way to go. Read over the boards, they're intensely helpful, but like Jessie said before take it in context and I say take nothing seriously. You need someone in person to help you with your dog. Nobody else can help you. And a trainer will not cut it, you need a veterinary behaviourist with the psychological and biological background to help you..

Good luck!

AMEN, Leah!
Yes they are gorgeous snakes! Do you breed ball pythons? I have a 4 year old ball python myself named Milo.
Leah is right, listen to what everyone is saying, but don't believe what everyone is saying. Listen to their advise, and use what you think might work with your dog.
No one here knows you or your family or your dog, therefore NO one can tell you you should put the dog down or otherwise. I would never tell someone that, just going from what I've read about them. From what I've heard about your pup, it sounds to me that he is not a bad dog. I think there is definitely hope for him. The fact that you could go to a group training session with other dogs and people and he was well behaved is a good sign. He may not have cooperated as well as you would have liked, but for the most part it sounds like he was a good dog.
I don't have an aggressive dog, and never have, so I don't know how much advise I can give you. When my dog barks at me, I stand up as tall as I can, put my hands on my hips, look at her sternly, and tell her to sit. She usually sits while she is barking and then stops once she is in the sit position and breaks eye contact with me. Then I praise her for being quiet. I don't know how well this would work for you, with Cookie it's a dominance thing, not a recource gaurding thing. But maybe you could give it a shot. I think you might have better results and be at less of a risk of getting bit by moving her. I will also ask a friend of mine who is a vet tech and went to school on dog behavior if she has any advise.
Good luck, try to stay calm and focused. Your frustration will reflect on the pup and confuse her. Stay happy and only train when you are in a good mood. Try to be overly excited when she is a good girl and praise, praise, praise!

thanx for being patient. I'm trying to reply to all 3 of you in this post.

I do not breed any snakes. My insurance agent asked me to bring in my burmese. While there another customer walked in who had the 2 balls and claimed a friend left them with him temporarirly and never came back. From his description, they were not even getting the basic husbandry requirements. We took them in so they didn't suffer. I'm not into balls but they're good snakes and my wife and kids like them. Jumbo is mine. He's 11.5 feet, roughly 45 pounds and oddly enough never bitten anyone to my knowledge (I am not the original owner). My dog is more dangerous yet folks would ban my snake in a minute.

Susan was on the phone today trying to find a behaviorist. First session, 3 hours, $295. Man, I can get it but that kind of cash hurts. For those that have used them, is the first session the most expensive (do the rates drop once the behaviorist has a feel for what's going on)? Either way the next opening is 12 weeks out. I'm also getting with my obedience trainer and the K-9 police at work (I'm an Air Force Security Policeman) to find closer or other professional dog trainers/behaviorists. Today my wife and I were sitting on the couch. When we got up he started growling at us. What we usually do is make him leave the area. The only time it's gone beyond that was the one incident with my daughter downstairs. Later he was laying in the middle of the floor in the kitchen. I walked by him and all he did was look up at me. My daughter thinks he's bi-polar. I guess when you consider my family, he's really just one of us. Maybe we are a trainwreck about to happen. J/K.

I really do understand the seriousness of what I'm dealing with. I've been through it allot with my snake although peoples fears were more fiction with him. With Bruno this could be real trouble. I will no longer make the mistake of having him off leash when out of a secured area. I'm even going back to having him on leash in the house (If this is wrong please tell me and why). When people come over he goes into his crate. We're getting a baby gate to block off the kitchen so no-one can get to his crate. As Debra suggested we're taking his food away at the first growl. I just don't know how long to wait him out. I feed him at 6:30 a.m. & p.m. as a rule. If he misses one he gets another chance 12 hours later. He's more grumpy when hungry though.

Another thing Debra mentioned was we are not consistent. I see this also. In fact Susan went to our vet yesterday for a copy of his shot records and the tech told her the same thing. We're going to really try to evaluate ourselves to see where this breaks down and we slip. The only thing is I am more strict with sticking exactly to a method whereas Susan generally tries to stick with it. For example. We use "Good boy" as a marker to let him know he has done what we wanted. I use it every time. Susan will sometimes say "Yeah" or "All right" and not stick with "Good boy". I've read allot about timing and how important it is but Susan is not as anal about it as I am. Even our trainer says at the exact moment the dogs but hits the floor you give him the "Good boy" and maybe a treat. Susan is sometimes slow at this and he may have done something else which she then says "Good boy" to. My kids, they're lost. They're teenagers so of course their way should be good enough. I am the most anal about timing and sticking with key words. Then again, I am the most successful with him. Anyway, I'm rambling. I'll update when it comes about and thank you so much for your help.

Eric
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

It sounds like you're on the right path..

I love large snakes but could never do the mouse/rat thing.. I opted for a captive bred garter snake just because they can eat fish I have a friend with a burm, she has to feed it chickens and rabbits because the thing is so huge.. She took it in after it ate its previous owner's 6 month old rottweiler. The owner was going to starve it to death so she now has it..

I talked to a few different behaviourists here, and their pricing varied considerably.. The one that I chose charges $295 (Canadian funds) for a year. That year includes the initial consultation, a session the following day where she shows you the exercises you'll be implementing, and as many phone calls as you want. Then there are monthly visits in your home to let you know how you're doing and she gives advice on where you might be slipping, and those are $80/month. In US funds that works out to about $175 for the year, and about $50 monthly.

Some of the others charged more than $600 Canadian initially, and you got nothing but phone calls after that for a year. Other places charged $100 a session, usually weekly, and some of them charges twice as much the first time. Many, but not all, charge much more for the initial assessment because it's much more work. I think it varies a lot, and I agree, that kind of cash hurts, but it's really worth it Definitely keep shopping around though, and that's a great idea asking your K9 friends.. Make sure to ask the vet too. I would never have found the behaviourist we go to if it wasn't for my vet. The woman that we go to only accepts dogs that have been referred by a vet, and she is by far the most helpful and least expensive of the whole lot I've talked to..

As far as the cost of a behavior specialist, it depends. It's important to be aware that even though they are evaluating the dog in person, they will avoid giving the advice to put a dog to sleep. There are reasons for this. They want to make you happy. They hate failing with dogs. And frankly, they make a heck of a lot more money (in some cases a huge amount of money) by stringing you along, even if they really don't think that ultimately your dog is going to make it. I'm sure the vast majority of them believe the dog will make it. A good salesman "sells himself first," after all. But it's awful how many times people get this kind of help and a year or two later there is a bad bite and they have to put the dog down. No one can give you a guarantee that won't happen.

I won't advise anyone to put a dog down on the basis of online information, or phone information. I will support a dog owner's right to make the decision they feel they can live with, whichever way they go. The situation you are dealing with is beyond a do-it-yourself project. Some dogs are a lot more difficult than others. Having lived with an aggressive dog for nearly 12 years now, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I will certainly avoid getting myself into the situation in the future.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

I opted with a Ball Python specifically for the reason that I would never have to feed him anything bigger than a rat. I would have loved to get a columbian boa, but at 12 feet they have to eat bunnies and guiney pigs. I am all set with that! I still feel bad about the rats, but I love Milo and no matter where he lived, he would have to eat.
Anyways, Sounds like you're on the right track to me. I can't give you much advise as I never had experience with an aggressive dog, I've never even been bit by a dog. Oh scratch that, I was bit in the face by a Skiperkee. No clue if I spelled that right. But it sounds like you have a good handle on this. Try to get your wife and kids to follow suit. Consistency is the key, but you already know that.
Good luck, I really hope things work out. Good luck trying to find a behaviorist! And try to stay positive!

You know what I find especially contradictory...people look down on me because I feed my snakes cute cuddly rabbits. I can't help it if they are the most affordable large meal I can give him. It's not much of an issue with rats. Some say they are vegetarians and would never eat an animals flesh. Then they'll say they have a cat or dog. What do most pet food companies boast as the inticer for their food? Fish, beef, chicken etc. Animals have to eat. Bigger snakes eat bigger food. They're animals just like rabbits, it's the food chain. I've been to a few places where people are giving away rabbits and they will not give them to me because of my use for them. I understand they do have that right, it just seems hypocritical to hate an animal because of what it eats. God designed and created them just like he did us and we do far worse things than eat rabbits. Just my thoughts. I started forums in Kingsnake.com (which is also how I found this forum) but I've needed more help with my chow than my burm. C-YA!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

I agree.. While I could never do it myself (feed a bunny to a snake), I love larger snakes and they have to eat too.. Besides, people eat rabbits, but it's considered okay when they do it..

I completely agree. Everything has to eat. I love large snakes too and if I could stomach it, I would have gotten a larger snake, but I don't think I could handle it. And at the time I got Milo, I had a pet bunny and no way would I be able to feed my snake a bunny, right in front of my pet bunny, that would just be torture! I have nothing against other people feeding there snakes rabbits, but I wouldn't be able to do it. By no means would I ever hate an animal because of what it eats. I like Lions, and I like Zebras. And I know Lions eat Zebras. I don't want to get into a whole food chain debate, but it's a slippery slope. It's sad to watch, but necissary at the same time. I get sad when the rat I am feeding to Milo is cute. I almost kept one a couple of weeks ago. He was grey and white and very sweet. I was going to sneak him into our old hamster cage and not tell Jason :-P but I did and he said no way so he got eaten, poor little guy.
I know exactly what you mean though, I get frustrated when I am buying a rat at the pet store and the clerk makes comments about how cruel it is. Then I just tell her that if she feels that way, they shouldn't sell snakes!

Petsmart won't sell any of their animals for feeders, it's against store policy.. Not because they are against feeding snakes but because feeding live is so dangerous to the snake and inhumane to the rat.. My roommate last year wound up adopting a ball python from a guy that fed it live rats because it refused to touch frozen. One particular rat took a couple of serious chunks of skin and scale out of the snake.. The wounds got infected and the snake nearly died. The owner wouldn't pay for the vet bills so my roommate adopted it and took to the vet. Then she weaned him over to frozen (which are cheaper anyway, although the freezer was always full of "mousicles" and he's healthy and happy as ever.. I think I could possibly learn to feed frozen mice, but anything live except fish is absolutely out of the question..

Maybe we should move this conversation elsewhere, if we want to continue it? I wasn't even thinking but some people here may not be snake lovers and may be upset or offended with the discussion of critter feeding..

Oops! I wish I would have read this post first. I'll take it back to Kingsnake. C-Ya!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

We have a separate freezer for snake food. It's pretty bare right now. If I can't get them to take F/T I'll P/K the animal before putting it in the snake cage.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>>>I like Lions, and I like Zebras. And I know Lions eat Zebras>>>

Susan and I read this together and were laughing our butts off.

We sometimes breed rats, sometimes by mistake, and we had a heather hooded. Susan pardoned it so it would not be eaten. I was trying to thin out the rat ranks and grabbed her when no-one was home to ask which ones I could have. I was really excited because neither of our balls had eaten for 4 months and this was the first meal for one of them. As I said "Hey, your snake finally ate", the next question was "where's the heather hooded?" Oops!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

I will tell you a story about a mouse we kept. We got it for free at the pet store cause some of the other mice beat him up a bit. He had a gash on the side of his face and the side of his body. We took him home and Milo wouldn't eat him. I kept the mouse in a ten gallon tank over night and tried again the next day. He still wouldn't eat. Then I picked the mouse up. It was the sweetest mouse I ever met. Didn't poop or pee in my hand, didn't even try to jump down. We decided to keep him and named him Squeeky. He was the best. Every day Jason would come home and go on the computer. He would sit cross-legged and put Squeeky on his knee and squeeky would sit there for hours. After a while, we noticed his cuts weren't healing. We took him to the vet and got anti biotics. They didn't seem to help. In fact he got worse. The cut on the side of his body turned into a big gash and he was constantly cleaning and scratching it. We took him back to the vet and he decided it was mange. So we had to take him to the vet once a week for about 6 weeks to get him drenched in this stuff. It was working wonderfully until one day, Jason noticed he was acting kind of lethargic. We both went to work like usual, but Jasons worrying brought him back home around 9am to check on him. Squeeky was barely moving. He rushed him to the vet and he had to be put down. Poor Squeeky. We were so sad, this mouse had more personality than even the cats I have owned. We burried him in the yard under a miniature rose bush. We ended up spending close to $500 on Squeeky at the vet. We could have paid more and they would have done X rays and an MRI and stuff, but for a mouse it would have been ridiculously expensive. People think we were crazy spending as much as we did on a mouse. But he was our companion, hardly "Just a mouse" to us. He was our buddy.

>>You know what I find especially contradictory...people look down on me because I feed my snakes cute cuddly rabbits. > Some say they are vegetarians and would never eat an animals flesh. Then they'll say they have a cat or dog. What do most pet food companies boast as the inticer for their food?

Dogs and cats are carnivores. its almost impossible to feed one without meats. Most people are vegetarians for moral reasons. Chosing not to EAT animals when we can live without them is not the same as making our pets unhealthy so that we can impose our moral standards on them... they need meat.

>> it just seems hypocritical to hate an animal because of what it eats.

I think most people who hate snakes do so due to FEAR, lol, not what they eat.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]

That seems a little drastic.. He really wants to help his dog, and they're doing whatever they can. I was confused too, and I also considered not coming back here until I realized that you just have to learn to sort out what's useful to you for yourself. You've made it sound as though this man is going to allow this to continue, but the whole reason he's here is because he's looking for options.

He has every right to express his confusion at all of this, he's here, like most of us, because he needed help sorting it out.. Nobody here is a reliable "expert", no matter the amount of their experience (who's to say I'm not an 85 year old man taking photos of my grandchild's dog?). And these people are doing a heck of a job of working this out. They're going to classes and have an appointment with a vet-recommended behaviourist. They're on the right track here.. There doesn't seem to be any need for such hostility.

Thanx man! It helps getting help when the people you ask listen, two way communication. We really do apprceciate your understanding and guidance.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Heh.. I'm not an 85 year old man, by the way Just thought I'd throw that in here

Yea yea, we all know you are! :-P jk
Seriously though, Leah you are SO right. There shouldn't be any hostility on these boards whatsoever. The fact that he is here posting messages just shows that he is genuinly concerned and wants to help his pup. If he was a cruel or abusive dog owner, I don't think he would be willing to spend money and time to help the pup. We are all here to get advise and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Criticise all you want, but don't offend. there is a big difference. No one has to be rude about it.

n/p
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell