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Just so you know I'm not ignoring everyone's advice about the behaviorist. We have an appointment but until then he's still growling and we have to keep trying so I'm still asking questions so I'm not doing more harm than good. I'm really good at allot of things but when it comes to Bruno I am not. I'm dealing with an animals brain and I have not been trainined in this area. To some of you this is common sense but what I thought was acceptable turned out to be the cause of the problem so I'm asking every little question I can.

I went back and re-read a link you sent me to. Here was your reply:

>>>>Correcting a dog for food aggression WILL make the food aggression worse. That is a dangerous method. Here is one method for you to consider:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1462&S=1&SourceID=47>>>>>

I'm assuming you mean a physical correction will make him worse. For clarity sake the primary method we use is sending him to a corner and laying down. If he stops growling, we allowed him back to eat. Most of his growling was sort of a complaining but sometimes he would look up and chow his teeth etc. If we hold the bowl, he will only growl when touched or talked to. If we are sitting there with him and the bowl is on the floor we get the same thing. If we are not there and the bowl is on the floor he sometimes will not eat. If we leave the room he'll follow us and not eat. If we're in the room and he's eating, he'll growl once we approach. here's my concern/question:

The article says:
--When you feel comfortable trying it (not too soon with an adult dog), touch the dog affectionately while the dog is eating. Add a treat to the dish at the same time. If the dog accepts this easily, continue to do it when you approach the eating dog, and start letting a second, two seconds, three seconds, four seconds, and finally five seconds, pass before you add the treat to the dish.--

Nothing in the article says what to do if he starts growling when you try to pet him. As of right now I'm following the advice from Debra and taking the food away at the first growl. He hasn't eaten a full meal in 2 days so I try to leave him alone for a minute initially so he gets something in his belly. Is this a thing where no-one can give a remedy so they do not get sued if we try their advice and get hurt? I can understand that theory but it's as if everything avoids what to do when the dog DOES growl. We've tried everything in that article and everything is peachy until it gets to the point of growling.

Here are some of our tactics when he growls:

With a leash attached we give it a pop. Not hard but enough to get his attention. We tell him no and wait until he stops.

If holding the bowl I'll pull the bowl away and tell him no. If he continues I make him lay down. He'll whimper and sometimes bark but he always stops within a minute. Once back up and eating he growls again.

We tried approaching with a tastier treat (cheese which he loves). As soon as the cheese is in his reach he gets REAL nasty with a more intense growl. When he growls with more intensity he does not listen to "no" or "go away". I'll grab the back of his neck or collar and pull his head away from his food. He's usually sitting so his he winds up looking at me. I'll put my other hand under his mouth for more control and then tell him no and keep looking at him until he looks away. Once he does I make him lay down and he's fine.

There have been about 3 times when I got really frustrated and did smack his nose etc. but that has never been the norm.

If I try petting him and he growls should I stop petting him and allow him to eat. Seems to me he will think this is a great way to get what he wants.

Is not allowing him to eat that particular meal a good method. I thought he would be real cranky but he hasn't been. He also is not real eager to eat. When he was a puppy he was frantic at chow time. We started making him sit before we let him eat and that has never been a problem since. Maybe he's eating moles or mice from the yard. ??

Should we make him leave, then allow him to come back once he's stopped. Debra's response to this was:>>>>>I would, btw, remove the food first offense. Next meal, another chance. If he misses a few meals, he will get the idea. Right now what you are doing is like telling a child you are going to count to 3... why count? They offend, they get punished. They don't come, they get punished. People who promptly follow demand with consequences have better behaved children and animals.>>>>>
I see her point but would also like your opinion.

He sometimes growls at us from his crate when we walk by. Not just a grrr, I'm talking attack dog gonna gitcha growl! We used to always give him a treat when he would enter his crate on command (he didn't as a puppy). One day he was given a milk bone through the door and it got stuck. He tried to pull it through but it needed to come back out to be put back in. After that anytime we'd offer a treat through the holes he would go berzerk. We read squirting him with a water bottle might help. He would get even worse. Tha treat thing has settled a bit. I can usually offer him one with the door open and sometimes with it shut. If he growls from the crate we open the door and make him exit and go to the corner. We don't even use a harsh voice. This happens 3-4 time each incident until he finally stops growling from his crate. At first he wouldn't come out so we dumped him out. After the second time of being dumped he learned was precedes the dump (removing items from on top) and now comes out when called.

This is allot to address so I'm gonna stop here. Thanx for your time and assistance!

Eric
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Eric, if this dog's ONLY issue were food guarding, I wouldn't be worried. But it isn't.

So here is my simple very best suggestion.

Put the dog's food in an isolated room or crate and let him eat, alone, no aggrevation. Period. Give no treats or food of any kind any where until you get the other things in control.

What you are doing is escalating physical responses and it will escalate the aggression, so stop for now and deal with other things.

Put a collar and short leash on the dog if you need it to control him for safety reasons.

If the dog growls, tell him NO loudly, then totally ignore.

For NOW, try to avoid any situation that will set the dog off to attack. If the dog actually tries to bite you or attack, Do WHATEVER you have to do to stop the attack, then put the dog in a crate, let out to potty, and keep confined until you can get a professional evaluation.

The more I read, the more concerns I have. You cannot fix an unstable dog. You cannot safely live with a very aggressive dog. Get the dog evaluated to find out if its the dog or training. Minimize training until you get that evaluation so that you don't make matters worse.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]

I completely agree that you cannot fix an unstable dog, and like Debra said some methods of training will make it worse. We've learned that with Kaiser clicker training is least likely to elicit an adverse response, and we now know a variety of techniques for recognizing and diverting his aggressive behaviours before they occur - as a result we haven't had a snap, bite, or growl in weeks whereas before it was a few times a day.. But for the rest of his life we'll have to always be on guard, always watching and going out of our way to manage Kaiser's problem. There are certain people (my little sister being one) and certain situations that Kaiser can never be exposed to and if he is, he has to be muzzled and leashed. It's not fun keeping him from my little sister because I tend to spend a lot of time visiting her, but that's what needs to be done when you have an aggressive dog.

The behaviourist will help you to pick out the cues that you are missing. For example, our behaviourist showed us that Kaiser's tail moves a certain way for just a split second when he begins to get irritated. By watching closely we now know that when we see that twitch we have about 3 seconds to distract him before he snaps. He does it every single time and we never even noticed. She also pointed out that he gets moody when we hold and move our hands a certain way and it's so subtle that there's absolutely no way we ever would have realized it ourselves. His behaviour seemed unpredictable simply because we weren't fully aware of our body language toward him. And with our new skills we're more observant than ever and learning new indicators of his temperament every day.

So it's entirely possible that there will be simple explanations and adjustments to be made that will at least help out with some of his problems. But you need to be very committed to making this work. If it's constantly one of your daughters that he snaps at, be prepared for the possibility that he will have to be muzzled in her presence for the rest of his life and your house would have to be arranged and gated off so that the two of them never cross paths.. That's worst case scenario of course, but it's definitely possible. That's usually the point where euthanasia becomes a viable option, I suppose..

Good luck, keep us informed..

That's the thing, he RARELY snaps at us. It's mostly growling. All of those things you mentioned are the exact reason I am still asking questions because it's probably something I don't see or understand. We have noticed his ears. For the past 2 weeks he's been very responsive to sending him away when he growls anytime, even laying down or in his crate. Maybe we made him sound like a monster but I don't think he's as bad as some might think. On the other hand I was thinking about getting a muzzle for now but do they make them short enough? I've started recording him but I'm going to get a better angle and once I have enough, study them to watch for similaritites. That's wild how you have a 3 second window to recognize the sympton and react. The wonderful world of chow chow's...
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

I completely understand.. If I explained everything my dog did before we realized that we needed professional help.. It came down to that when we were visiting at my parents' house. My little sister and brother still live there, and Kaiser and I go and visit a couple of weekends every month. My sister is 15 years old, very tall, about 5'8", and anorexic so she is very weak and fragile. Kaiser picked her out right away and has snapped at her from the day we brought him home.

One night she was making supper and he was laying in the kitchen nearby. She dropped a small piece of meat and it rolled under the fridge. Kaiser tried to get it but couldn't and went and lay down in the adjoining living room. He couldn't even see her from where he was, and yet as soon as she bent down to find where the meat had gone he bolted to the other room and left two good sized gashes across her cheek.

He's not a bad dog he just doesn't know the rules. The book I told you about, "Mine!", makes a good point. Dogs are animals, and animals bite. We encourage them to guard us and our homes and get upset or even irate when they bite. How is it that we seem to think we can train them to guard a stereo more defensively than they are allowed to defend a meaty bone? Kaiser is a really great dog, but he has his moments, and we're dealing with them fairly well I think...

I've seen chows in muzzles before, so I know they make them. In fact I'm a horrible person to talk to about positive chow traits - I've met 6 chows in my lifetime and never met one that didn't have a detectable mean streak. I know that they're out there, but it's illusive to me. It's entirely up to you though. If you think that a muzzle will be necessary for your family's safety between now and your appointment with the behaviourist, then you really should. However if you can control him sufficiently with a leash and collar, do that. I tend to think that being muzzled would cause undue stress if it's not necessary, and may make him more defensive. Not to mention they have to be conditioned to a muzzle and with this dog it would be better to have the professional help for that as well. My dog always has a 6' lead trailing from his collar in the house. He occasionally gets snippy if you reach for his collar and he'll often hide under the futon in our living room when he knows it's time for bed. With the leash dragging behind him we can safely get him out from under there without getting bitten. Most times treats will work, but sometimes he really, really doesn't want to go. At first we had to have him always wearing a harness with a leash dragging, because we didn't want to hurt his neck by pulling on his collar.

My dog is a German Shepherd/Corgi mix, by the way.. It's a very interesting combination resulting in a 30lb GSD with very short legs but huge paws, and a face that will eternally look like a young puppy.. Here's a picture

...

Bruno has 2 similar rope toys. He'll grab one end and shake his head very quickly. Don't be near him because those knots on the end hurt!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

heh, I definitely know how those ropes feel, they're surprisingly hard for cotton Luckily Kaiser only really shakes it if he's bringing it back and trips over it.. He's got a large head and mouth so we got him a fairly large one, but he's really short so if he grabs it by the end while trying to run it drags on the ground...

Bruno is like Maggie Simpson. He's short and the bigger one he has came from my sister's Great Dane. She never played with it so My sister gave it to me when we picked Bruno up. It drags on the ground and every now and then he'll step on it and his face will hit the ground.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Wow! bites from the cheek. Bruno has only nipped, (left a red under the skin blood mark) before. He is nowhere near as bad as what you described. We can take most anything from him by simplying commanding "Mine" and he either lets go in our hand or drops it on the floor. We can even reach in his mouth and take out non-food items. Susan needs the computer so I gotta go for now. C-YA!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

You're very fortunate.. That was the one and only time that Kaiser has drawn blood, but it was certainly more than enough. My sister wants to go into modeling so thankfully a month later it's barely visible at all.

I think Kaiser has chosen my sister to pick on because she's so weak.. He also snaps at her friends and almost any female less than 18 years old.. He also goes really nuts when there are kids around, he'll do anything he can to get to them, which is scary, but he is getting better.. He's starting to get used to the neighbour children who range from 1 to 12 years old, and the behaviourist says when he's better with them we can start doing exercises that will help him apply that to all children (although of course he will never, ever in his life be near a child unless he has his leash being held by someone older). I'm hoping that when my sister is a little older and stronger he'll start to like her more.

You are very lucky that you can take things from him as well.. I can't take anything from him if he wants it without getting bitten, although any male can, particularly my dad and my boyfriend. His most treasured possessions are the odd kleenex he gets ahold of, and apple cores.. I think I could take meat from him without much fuss, but never an apple if he gets it.. Toys and such are fine though... Again, with the behaviourist's help he's getting much better.. We're also much better at not letting him get into things in the first place

my daughters bathroom door needs to stay open when not in use due to no windows for fresh air and to release humidity. Sometimes Bruno will go in there and lay down. He comes out with the most disturbing products the feminine hygeine line has to offer. Then I have to be the one to catch him and re-dispose of them. Yeah, I'm getting them a trash can with a secure lid.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Hehe.. Yep.. We have the same problem with our bathroom, the door has to stay open for humidity. The first night we got him he grabbed the toilet tissue and tracked it all over the house and was eating kleenex from the garbage. The garbage went in the cupboard and the tissue up on the counter. Now the big problem is soap. At first he walked in and sniffed it. I thought "okay, lick it, I dare you.." He did, and absolutely loved it. If he gets ahold of a bar of soap now, it's quite a fight to get it from him.. We've had to change a lot of our ways having him around, but I think it's made us much neater, tidier people so maybe it's not all bad

Yuck! Yuck! and just eewwwy! LOL
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>Hehe.. Yep.. We have the same problem with our bathroom, the door has to stay open for humidity. The first night we got him he grabbed the toilet tissue and tracked it all over the house and was eating kleenex from the garbage. The garbage went in the cupboard and the tissue up on the counter. Now the big problem is soap. At first he walked in and sniffed it. I thought "okay, lick it, I dare you.." He did, and absolutely loved it. If he gets ahold of a bar of soap now, it's quite a fight to get it from him.. We've had to change a lot of our ways having him around, but I think it's made us much neater, tidier people so maybe it's not all bad

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You can put a baby gate across a doorway to keep a dog out of a room and let air flow. If a dog jumps over one gate, you can stack a second gate above it.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

We're going to do that for the kitchen.. There are two open doorways and we have always told him "out" the second he sets foot in there but it doesn't make a difference.. He still goes, we say out and often have to chase him out..

We can't do that for the bathroom though, if we did we wouldn't be able to close the door, the doorway is not big enough.. And it would be an incredible pain to have to remove the gate every time we wanted to close the bathroom door. We just moved everything he likes to where he can't get it, and put the soap in a plastic travel case in the shower.. It's been fine ever since..

That's one thing Bruno is very good at. If we tell him "GO" he almost always goes out of the room or to the corner in the kitchen. If I'm cooking dinner he will lay in that corner and almost never get up. I periodically give him treats and tell him he's a good boy or "Good stay" when he stays there for extended periods. He also stays there while we eat in the dining room. We started that from day one and he's been very good with it.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

I can't remember if it's been mentioned here yet or not, but the Halti and the Gentle Leader are both great alternatives to a muzzle. They don't restrict the use of the dogs mouth at all until they pull on the leash. There is a loop that goes over the dogs nose and acts as a slip not, when they pull it closes they're mouth. If you're dog does snap, this could be a good way to correct the behavior, if you want to resort to a correction. But they also act as a safety measure, if you're not sure how he will react to something, at least you have the option of closing his mouth if he does lunge at someone.

This was about a month after we brought him home in December. He looks so pathetic yet cute. I think this is a practicle joke from God. "Oh, here's this cute adorable little puppy, yeah, you know you want him." Then he gets older and grrrrr. As I type this Susan or I moved and he started growling. I think it's when he's on the verge of sleeping. As soon as we get him up he stops. We still follow through with making him move.
AAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tension breaker, had to be done!
C-YA!

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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Awww! He's adorable! It makes sense, that he growls a little when he's falling asleep and something disturbs him.. Not acceptable, mind you, but I know I get a little grouchy when I'm trying to sleep and someone bothers me..

I would certainly make him move. I wonder if a bed would be a good idea or not. It might be useful just so that when he does fall asleep he's out of the way in a corner or something, and not somewhere that he has to be moved.. On the other hand he might start to guard it, which increases your problems, and he might start to generalize it to include whatever is around the bed, and eventually the room...

Yep, come to think of it, I would just keep moving him If he really doesn't want to be bothered he can go to his crate.. A book I have on training recommends making the dog move out of your way instead of stepping around because it asserts your dominance.. The book even suggested carrying a broom or something with you to use if moving the dog with your foot tends to get an aggressive response... I really disagree with a lot of things in that book though, so don't trust me on that

What a cutie! I had no clue Chows came in that blue color! I thought they were only red!

I only see a faded black like black jeans that have been washed. Now that his tail has grown out he has a somewhat white tail with a black stripe going up the middle.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

np
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>Just so you know I'm not ignoring everyone's advice about the behaviorist. We have an appointment but until then he's still growling and we have to keep trying so I'm still asking questions so I'm not doing more harm than good. I'm really good at allot of things but when it comes to Bruno I am not. I'm dealing with an animals brain and I have not been trainined in this area. To some of you this is common sense but what I thought was acceptable turned out to be the cause of the problem so I'm asking every little question I can.
>>
>>I went back and re-read a link you sent me to. Here was your reply:
>>
>>>>>>Correcting a dog for food aggression WILL make the food aggression worse. That is a dangerous method. Here is one method for you to consider:
>>
>>http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1462&S=1&SourceID=47>>>>>
>>
>>I'm assuming you mean a physical correction will make him worse. For clarity sake the primary method we use is sending him to a corner and laying down. If he stops growling, we allowed him back to eat. Most of his growling was sort of a complaining but sometimes he would look up and chow his teeth etc. If we hold the bowl, he will only growl when touched or talked to. If we are sitting there with him and the bowl is on the floor we get the same thing. If we are not there and the bowl is on the floor he sometimes will not eat. If we leave the room he'll follow us and not eat. If we're in the room and he's eating, he'll growl once we approach. here's my concern/question:
>>
>>The article says:
>>--When you feel comfortable trying it (not too soon with an adult dog), touch the dog affectionately while the dog is eating. Add a treat to the dish at the same time. If the dog accepts this easily, continue to do it when you approach the eating dog, and start letting a second, two seconds, three seconds, four seconds, and finally five seconds, pass before you add the treat to the dish.--
>>
>>Nothing in the article says what to do if he starts growling when you try to pet him. As of right now I'm following the advice from Debra and taking the food away at the first growl. He hasn't eaten a full meal in 2 days so I try to leave him alone for a minute initially so he gets something in his belly. Is this a thing where no-one can give a remedy so they do not get sued if we try their advice and get hurt? I can understand that theory but it's as if everything avoids what to do when the dog DOES growl. We've tried everything in that article and everything is peachy until it gets to the point of growling.
>>
>>Here are some of our tactics when he growls:
>>
>>With a leash attached we give it a pop. Not hard but enough to get his attention. We tell him no and wait until he stops.
>>
>>If holding the bowl I'll pull the bowl away and tell him no. If he continues I make him lay down. He'll whimper and sometimes bark but he always stops within a minute. Once back up and eating he growls again.
>>
>>We tried approaching with a tastier treat (cheese which he loves). As soon as the cheese is in his reach he gets REAL nasty with a more intense growl. When he growls with more intensity he does not listen to "no" or "go away". I'll grab the back of his neck or collar and pull his head away from his food. He's usually sitting so his he winds up looking at me. I'll put my other hand under his mouth for more control and then tell him no and keep looking at him until he looks away. Once he does I make him lay down and he's fine.
>>
>>There have been about 3 times when I got really frustrated and did smack his nose etc. but that has never been the norm.
>>
>>If I try petting him and he growls should I stop petting him and allow him to eat. Seems to me he will think this is a great way to get what he wants.
>>
>>Is not allowing him to eat that particular meal a good method. I thought he would be real cranky but he hasn't been. He also is not real eager to eat. When he was a puppy he was frantic at chow time. We started making him sit before we let him eat and that has never been a problem since. Maybe he's eating moles or mice from the yard. ??
>>
>>Should we make him leave, then allow him to come back once he's stopped. Debra's response to this was:>>>>>I would, btw, remove the food first offense. Next meal, another chance. If he misses a few meals, he will get the idea. Right now what you are doing is like telling a child you are going to count to 3... why count? They offend, they get punished. They don't come, they get punished. People who promptly follow demand with consequences have better behaved children and animals.>>>>>
>>I see her point but would also like your opinion.
>>
>>He sometimes growls at us from his crate when we walk by. Not just a grrr, I'm talking attack dog gonna gitcha growl! We used to always give him a treat when he would enter his crate on command (he didn't as a puppy). One day he was given a milk bone through the door and it got stuck. He tried to pull it through but it needed to come back out to be put back in. After that anytime we'd offer a treat through the holes he would go berzerk. We read squirting him with a water bottle might help. He would get even worse. Tha treat thing has settled a bit. I can usually offer him one with the door open and sometimes with it shut. If he growls from the crate we open the door and make him exit and go to the corner. We don't even use a harsh voice. This happens 3-4 time each incident until he finally stops growling from his crate. At first he wouldn't come out so we dumped him out. After the second time of being dumped he learned was precedes the dump (removing items from on top) and now comes out when called.
>>
>>This is allot to address so I'm gonna stop here. Thanx for your time and assistance!
>>
>>Eric
>>-----
>>DZ
>>
>>"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Mixing methods can be very dangerous, because the dog gets no clear message at all. The messages intended to be conveyed by the method in my article are that the food comes from the owner and the approach of the owner is a positive. By presenting the dog with an empty dish, the dog has no food to guard. You walk up and put just a tiny bit in and walk away again.

You can tie the dog if it adds to your safety. You could even crate the dog, I suppose, if you have a clear path to get the food in there cleanly without fumbling it. You can use a reaching tool such as the Gopher brand, used by people with disabilities to reach things without so much bending down, when they can't get out of a wheelchair, etc.

The whole meal is fed a very small amount at a time, and you don't advance to touching the dog until you're way past this point. This is a slow conditioning process, not something to complete in a day or two. You do this for weeks. And for the rest of the dog's life, even if the problem seems to go away, you repeat the process periodically. Once this instinct has been triggered in a dog, it's never really gone.

In this process, the dog is learning that your approach during meals is a good thing. Taking the food away would teach the dog that you indeed are not good news when you approach during a meal. There is no way to work these two methods together.

As the article explains, guarding food is a primal instinct in dogs that is best kept dormant. The goal is to convince the dog there is no REASON to guard food. If you give the dog a dish of food, you're already in a defensive position and so is he. He has something to guard and you're trying to show him you're boss by taking away the food you have given. There are no winners here and not much good can be learned, unless the dog really doesn't have a problem in the first place. I had a dog like that. He growled, I took it away. 15 minutes later I gave it back and he growled again and I took it away. 15 minutes later I gave it back and he never growled at me over food again for the rest of his long life. You are already way past that point with your dog, and my dog was nothing at all like a Chow. Nor did he ever try to dominate me or resist my commands in any way. That method can be okay for easy dogs with experienced owners, but for many people it will solidify the very problem you are trying to solve.

By giving him an empty dish to think about, and each morsel of food coming only when he calmly accepts you walking up and dropping or placing it in the dish, you become the giver of the food. You are still in control, and if he growls at your approach you can walk on by without giving that food, and you can also stop the meal. For each bite, you walk away several feet, wait for him to eat it, wait for him to look at you, and then you walk up again with the next bite. You do not rush this. You also don't threaten him, or praise him, or do anything other than quietly work through the process.

Some experts say withholding the food until the next meal is too long for it to have meaning to the dog. I think 15 minutes is a more meaningful interval where he might actually get the pattern. In other words, if he growls, you just walk away (leave him tied or crated or loose with the empty dish, or maybe take up the dish and put it away until the next session). Then in 15 minutes you give him another chance. If he growls, end it, try again in 15 minutes. He'd have to be pretty confused or stubborn or maybe afraid of you to not realize on the third try that it's in his best interests to calmly accept the food you offer without grumbling. This interval also avoids the problem of low blood sugar or other issues making his temperament worse. I feed 4 times a day at my house, so I get a lot of chances to use meals to teach various things.

Obviously I cannot be responsible if your dog bites the crap out of somebody, nor can anyone else who has merely tried to answer your questions online for free. This is a very scary case. When a dog is behaving dangerously, people tend to get even more emotionally attached to the dog, trying to save him. It's hard for people to make dispassionate decisions when it's their own dog. The less training experience the person has, the less they realize what they're dealing with, and of course the more mistakes that only make the dog even more dangerous. I've seen a lot of situations made hopeless by people trying too hard and trying too many things.

Veterinary behavior specialists generally advise people to stop messing with the dog and risking making him worse, while awaiting diagnosis and treatment recommendations. They'll say to just manage the dog in ways that do not trigger him. Every time an unwanted behavior gets acted out, it becomes stronger, more likely to keep happening, and harder to cure later. In other words, every time he growls at you while he's eating and you're trying to work with him, that is making him worse.

As Debra suggested, a good work-around at this point would be to fix his food, put it in a room without him being able to follow you, get the dog and let him into the room and shut the door behind him. Give him time to eat, and let him out of the room. Have him in another area when you go in and get the dish and remove it from his reach. That way he has no empty dish to guard.

People with good dog leadership skills do not fight with their dogs. They have a plan and they carry out the plan calmly. When you keep changing methods, the dog can clearly see that you don't know what to do. That leaves the position of leader open. You need a plan.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

Whew, that was an earful. Thanx for the help. I think ya'll tried to tell us this before but with not as much explanation so it was confusing to my feable mind. I also agree he didn't seem to learn anything when I simply removed to food until the next feeding. Hopefully we won't need a labotomty if & when we reach our goal. Thanx for the help and paitients and understanding and concern.

The Dziedzic's
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>Whew, that was an earful. Thanx for the help. I think ya'll tried to tell us this before but with not as much explanation so it was confusing to my feable mind. I also agree he didn't seem to learn anything when I simply removed to food until the next feeding. Hopefully we won't need a labotomty if & when we reach our goal. Thanx for the help and paitients and understanding and concern.
>>
>>The Dziedzic's
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>>DZ
>>
>>"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Note that the full instructions on the Food Guarding training are in the article by that title, alphabetized in the Table of Contents in my Canine Behavior Series:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

Man, I've only read one article in that list and it explains in detail as I was looking for. I read the article "Attention Please". In my obedience class that's what we're working on and you went more in depth than they did. Thanx!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>People with good dog leadership skills do not fight with their dogs. They have a plan and they carry out the plan calmly. When you keep changing methods, the dog can clearly see that you don't know what to do. That leaves the position of leader open. You need a plan

I completely agree! When Cookie first started having leadership issues, I didn't have a good plan and it resulted in us fighting like 5 year old children. Once I had a good plan we saw results immediately. Before, she would bark and I could not get her to be quiet. This was because I kept changing my method and would get angry. One day, she barked at me like usual, and I stood up, put my hands on my hips and told her "Lay Down" and she did! And then she was quiet and I praised her. She still barks, but I can get her to be quiet now, which I could never do before. I tell her to lay down and she quiets. Lately I have been trying to use "Quiet" instead of "Lay down" and it's been working just as well. Sometimes, she won't quiet and will start to play "Catch me if you can" and runs to the couch. As soon as she gets there, I tell her STAY (She's very good with stay) and she does and I puck her up and put her in the kitchen. But it almost never gets to this point anymore. But before, I was never able to get her to stay when we were playing this "game".
Just an example of how this really works. You have to remain calm, it makes a BIG difference!