Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi! Just found this forum after searching for a pet resource board. My name is Angela, my husband's name is Anders (goes by "Mick), and we have a 6 month red poodle we purchased from a wonderful breeder. Our puppy's name is Mr. Hobbs, and he was just "tutored" yesterday.

Mr. Hobbs has been fully crate-trained for the last 3 months. However, he still messes in the house (we only keep him in the crate while we're at work).

So we know he *can* hold it, and he understands that messing in the house is a no-no. If we ask him if he has to go potty, he goes to the door without any problems. Outside when we tell him to go potty he'll go, no problem. But he never goes to the door independently or "takes the initiative" to indicate he needs to go. I've tried working with him to teach him to whine at the door, reinforcing the behavior by opening the door, but he's not getting it.

I've been told that since he's crate-trained, we should start expanding the area he's allowed to roam during the day, half a room at a time, only adding more space after a few weeks of no accidents... that doing so will help him begin to see the whole house as his personal space so he won't want to mess in it. On the flip side, I've also been told he should remain fully crated while we're gone until he no longer messes in the house, since letting him out sooner & being able to mess while we're gone during the day will just delay the housebreaking process. Others have told me it's biological, and will stop once he's neutered - though that doesn't seem to make sense, since his messes aren't territorial marking.

Is there anything we can do to encourage him to let us know when he needs to go out, or does it just come with age? Or might he never do it? Or all of the above? Is any of the advice I've received generally more sound than the other?

Thanks in advance for your advice or suggestions!

Angela & Mr. Hobbs

Hello and welcome!
If he doesn't mess his crate, you're on the right track. At least you can catch him in the act. Whenever you are not there to supervise him, he should be in the crate. Don't start giving him more space in the house until he is completely trained. I have a 7 month old and when we first got her, we trained her to ring a bell hanging on the door knob when she had to go out. Every time we took her out, I would take her paw and make her ring the bell and praise her. Eventually, she started ringing the bell on her own whenever she had to go out. And later, we had to take it away because she was abusing her bell-ringing priviledges lol. But she is completely potty trained now. What are you doing when you catch him in the act? The best thing to do, is to whisk the pup right outside as soon as the pup starts to go and always praise praise praise when he goes outside. Make the dog think he did the most fantastic thing in the world, even if you feel like an idiot outside screaming and hollering like the Red Sox just won the world series again, GO SOX!
Also, when it is time to come out of the crate, don't give him the chance to potty in the house. Have his leash ready and waiting in your hands, and leash him as soon as he comes out and get outside as fast as you can. Don't come in until he goes. If the pup starts pacing a little more than usual in the house, it usually means he is getting ready to go. Take him out as soon as you see him pacing! If he starts sniffing the floor, you might be too late, in two seconds he'll be going. How often do you take him out? Do you go out with him, on a leash, or do you just let him out into a fenced in yard? If you do the latter, that may be the problem. You're not there to praise him, and when it's potty time, it's not play time. He should go potty first, then you can let him play. Keep him on a leash until he goes. And praise praise praise!!!
Good luck, hope this helps! Would love to see some pics!

Hi, and thanks for the quick response!

When we catch him in the act, we make a loud noise to distract him (currently a jar full of coins that we shake) and take him outside ASAP. When he's messed recently, I take him over to the spot and hold him there (lightly by the scruff of the neck - vet recommended that is it's supposedly how the mother disciplines them...?) and make him sit there while I clean the mess... I never scream/yell or hit - I believe that when you get down to it, it's my fault for not watching him, not his fault for having to go.

When we get home from work we get him out of the crate and go outside immediately. We stayu out until he goes, but it's never an issue - he'll hop around and be excited for a minute, and then head straight out into the yard. In fact, anytime that we're in the yard or on the deck and say, "Go potty" - if he has to go, he'll go straight out into the yard and go. If he just sits there, that's how we know he doesn't need to go. We ALWAYS praise him when he goes (he never goes without us, we're always there in the yard with him). When he was younger I would reward him with small treats, but we slowly switched that over to affection & play.

Maybe we let him have too much run of the house. Basically, unless we're at work or it's night-time, he's outside of the crate. Most of the time we watch him close enough that there are no problems. We will ask him about once an hour if he needs to go potty, if he reacts (normally he gets excited and goes to the door if he does, and just looks at us if he doesn't) we go out with him immediately. We take him out every two hours whether he responds to being asked or not. A few times he's been at the door and whined - whether we thought he had to go out or not we've taken him out because we want him to learn that doing that will cause us to open the door (see, he's conditioning us to open the door, we're not conditioning him to let us know when he needs to go out!). I understand his messes are really our fault for not watching him as closely as we should -- when he goes all day and is fine, and has had a few days with no accidents, it's really easy to think, "Oh, maybe he's finally there..."

I've been thinking about giving him a little more space during the day... leaving his crate there, open & accessible, but maybe blocking out half the room so he has access to more space outside the crate if he wants it. I don't know if that's a good approach or not, but that's how all of our family pets have been housebroken in the past. If I do that, do you think it will encourage him to begin seeing more & more of the house as him area? Or is that a bad idea?

And, of course, I'll show him off any chance I get. This was his snooze time after a long, hard day of being neutured on Tuesday.

>>Hi, and thanks for the quick response!
>>
>>When we catch him in the act, we make a loud noise to distract him (currently a jar full of coins that we shake) and take him outside ASAP. When he's messed recently, I take him over to the spot and hold him there (lightly by the scruff of the neck - vet recommended that is it's supposedly how the mother disciplines them...?) and make him sit there while I clean the mess... I never scream/yell or hit - I believe that when you get down to it, it's my fault for not watching him, not his fault for having to go.
>>
>>When we get home from work we get him out of the crate and go outside immediately. We stayu out until he goes, but it's never an issue - he'll hop around and be excited for a minute, and then head straight out into the yard. In fact, anytime that we're in the yard or on the deck and say, "Go potty" - if he has to go, he'll go straight out into the yard and go. If he just sits there, that's how we know he doesn't need to go. We ALWAYS praise him when he goes (he never goes without us, we're always there in the yard with him). When he was younger I would reward him with small treats, but we slowly switched that over to affection & play.
>>
>>Maybe we let him have too much run of the house. Basically, unless we're at work or it's night-time, he's outside of the crate. Most of the time we watch him close enough that there are no problems. We will ask him about once an hour if he needs to go potty, if he reacts (normally he gets excited and goes to the door if he does, and just looks at us if he doesn't) we go out with him immediately. We take him out every two hours whether he responds to being asked or not. A few times he's been at the door and whined - whether we thought he had to go out or not we've taken him out because we want him to learn that doing that will cause us to open the door (see, he's conditioning us to open the door, we're not conditioning him to let us know when he needs to go out!). I understand his messes are really our fault for not watching him as closely as we should -- when he goes all day and is fine, and has had a few days with no accidents, it's really easy to think, "Oh, maybe he's finally there..."
>>
>>I've been thinking about giving him a little more space during the day... leaving his crate there, open & accessible, but maybe blocking out half the room so he has access to more space outside the crate if he wants it. I don't know if that's a good approach or not, but that's how all of our family pets have been housebroken in the past. If I do that, do you think it will encourage him to begin seeing more & more of the house as him area? Or is that a bad idea?
>>
>>And, of course, I'll show him off any chance I get. This was his snooze time after a long, hard day of being neutured on Tuesday.
>>

>>>>>>>>>>

No punishment for housetraining. It will mess the whole process up, and sometimes the dog's temperament, too. Rush the dog outside, no lingering inside for any noise-making or scruffing. The message is to get the dog to the right spot. Dogs never actually understand housetraining, because our attitudes about it are totally foreign to them. They just form the habits we help them form. This site has several articles on how to housetrain:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series at www.veterinaryforum.com

I have to agree on Kathy with this one.
Sounds like you're doing everything else right though. Another thing I've heard, is you shouldn't clean up the mess in front of them. In a way it makes them feel in charge, and not only that, but they see you picking it up ouside, and if you pick it up inside too, then he must be doing it right, in his mind.
The best thing to do is whisk him outside as fast as you can, even if he's dripping the whole way out. Let him finish outside and praise him.
He is absolutely adorable by the way! What a face!