Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It has become clear that Kaiser needs to be muzzled at certain times. I'm not going to go into when and why, it's a long story.

He hates his halti despite my best attempts at getting him used to it very gently. For a while he was very good but that fell through and he began trying to chew it off his face.

He doesn't mind me handling his face, so getting it on and off shouldn't be too difficult. But I don't want to cause him undue stress. Could someone suggests the best type to go with (nylon mesh, the solid nylon type, wire basket type). I'm aware of the dangers of overheating and such, what else do we need to be very careful with. And there will be times when he'll need to wear it for quite a while which I know is very bad. Ideas on what to do instead? The halti doesn't work to close his mouth and a body harness is not enough restraint.

I'm at a loss as to what to do with him. I live in the city so the only walks he can take, there are people. I can't move to the country, I would never give him away, the behaviourist didn't work, the halti isn't enough, and I won't have him put down if there is a humane way to muzzle him for periods of no more than 30 to 60 minutes.

Any help and suggestions are greatly appreciated..

maybe someone here could help you to correct his original problem. why he needs the muzzle in the first place? maybe you could tell us why. you don't have to get to detailed if you want. just a general idea.

Oh, I forget some of you haven't been around from the beginning
Here's the brief version:
I adopted Kaiser from a shelter at the end of January. He's a GSD/corgi mix. We think he was about 8 months old at the time. We soon discovered that he got really nasty if you tried to take his favourite snack from him - kleenex. He also growled and got snippy if it was something else he really treasured, like apple cores. I thought, okay, not good, this is going to take a ton of work. Me, Kaiser, and my boyfriend Matt all live in a townhouse where we have a small unfenced front yard. I'm a jogger though so he got lots of exercise that way. He's great, the most intelligent and human dog I've ever met. He learns extremely quickly and gets bored just as easily. He quickly learned (with the help of a mister bottle) that Matt and I will not tolerate nipping or growling, and for the most part is fine with us although for the first few months he snapped at me quite a few times. Anyway, we are university students and often go to our parents' houses for the weekend. My sister, who still lives there, is weak and fragile and suffers from anorexia. She became his target and he often snapped at her for no apparent reason, and always when food was involved. One weekend he bit her and left a gash under her eye. Before that I tried many trainers - all of whom screwed us over in the end. After the bite I went through a long debate with the others on this board about whether or not to have him euthanized. I decided I owed it to him to try every single resource available to me and found an amazing veterinarian behaviourist. We worked with her for a long time, and Kaiser did improve immensely to the point where I can take anything from him now without a growl. Then there was a serious accident on the way home from a family reunion where my aunt and uncle and Matt's grandfather were killed. All training ceased and my mom's assistant gave him his daily walks. At this point I was living back with my parents for the summer while I work an amazing job. On one particularly stressful day, Kaiser, as he often did, tried to steal my sister's food off the counter. She swatted him down, he snapped and she'd had enough - she pinned him to the ground and yelled at him. He hasn't snapped at her since, and that was at least a month ago. During the 6 weeks or so I was concerned with putting my family back together our behaviourist came to me and asked if she could take Kaiser for a couple of weeks, just for a few hours every day, to work with him. I had no time, and Kaiser and I both trusted her, so I agreed. After a few days of this Kaiser seemed very low spirited. I mentioned it and Yvonne said she just stepped up his restrictions a little more, he's just pouting. 3 weeks later he came back with a small bleeding scratch on his paw. A week after that he had another bleeding cut on the back of his head. Kaiser, by this point would hide when Yvonne came to get him. I talked to my vet that evening, and Kaiser will never go back there again.

That's the history. I've spent thousands of dollars on trainers and behaviourists that all caused even worse problems for us and I refuse to do it again. I should also mention that he hates kids and has since he chose me at the shelter. Even so much as a child's voice outside sets him growling and snarling with hackles raised. He came to me with big problems and while certain issues have all but disappeared some will not improve - although none are any worse. Last night my 8 year old neighbour came over. She's been told millions of times not to enter the back half of the house (it's a huge, huge house so keeping them apart is very easy.) because "Kaiser's mean to kids". She 'forgot' when she went to visit the parrots (she walks in and out of our house freely, always has, since she was old enough to walk) and Kaiser jumped at her. He left a small nick on her jaw and buggered off when my brother came to see what the problem was. She's fine, but it could have been much worse.

After he bit my sister, we took every precaution to keep the two of them apart while in the house. I said that I would keep trying to help him understand but if he ever bit again I'd have to have him put down. I'm in love with this dog and he's my best pal, and while I wasn't willing to muzzle him before I am now. Mikaylah won't be back in that part of the house, and every person coming to visit has to let us know at the security gate that they're there. That gives me time to put him in another part of the house and/or muzzle him. And nobody has ever, ever walked into our house unannounced except for Mikaylah. And at school nobody under the age of 20 ever comes to our townhouse except for my sister, and he's fine with her now. Anyway, there are too many circumstances to explain, but I know that as long as he's adjusted to a muzzle, with a few minor changes to the way we do things, I can keep him and everyone else safe.

Hehe, I know this is long, but you asked and it's definitely faster than reading through the posts for the last 5 months

It's got velcro across the nose to it can be tight or loose enough to allow panting, eating, even barking if I wanted.

From his reaction I'm guessing he's worn one before. He got very calm very quickly. I gave him a treat as he put his nose in (he moves toward it, not the other way around), then gave him another treat, took it off.. I did that about 10 times before I closed the latch at the back of his head.. More treats, take it off, many times.. Then I spaced the treats out more, maybe 2 seconds between treats.. I went up to about 10 seconds between treats and he just sat and looked at me. Not like the halti at all, he was constantly scratching and chewing at it, no matter how fast the treats were coming..

I was needlessly worried I think. He's accepting it remarkably well and with the one I got I can adjust it to be wide enough that he can even carry a toy, just so that he can wear it for short periods to get used to it and still be able to do what he wants (supervised, of course).

I'm pleased and so happy knowing that I'll be able to take him to the vet without worrying about who he may try to bite, or walk him through the horse farm without worrying he'll try to bite the head groom, who is very small and looks like she's 10..

It will be a long time before I actually put it to use because I want to make sure he's very well used to it, but after how tonight went I know it's possible now.

do you happen to know who cesar millan is?

no, I don't..

I would NOT use Cesar Milan "The (self proclaimed) Dog Whisperer" if I were you. He's got a television series on the Discovery channel I think. I'm not impressed with his techniques. I know what the people on the show say and I've seen a few episodes, but has he ever had a follow up with a person MONTHS after the show to demonstrate how well the "treatment plan" works over time? None that I have seen. I realize some dogs need some "tough love" at times and are treated was too liberally by their owners, but that is NOT the case with Keiser. It is my opinion that this man would do more harm than good. OK, I'll get off my soapbox.

I'm glad the nylon muzzle is working already. You might want to try a basket muzzle though for extended periods of time. They allow a dog to open their mouth fully and pant as well as potentially take treats. Drinking however would be tough in one so infrequent moments without would be required in hot weather.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita and Taiko (the shiba inu wrestle maniacs), Adi (reserved and dignified tabby cat), and all 28 reptiles

Eee.. I've never heard of the guy, but I think I know the type.. I don't believe in "tough love", not for Kaiser. The type of dog Kaiser is, he will not back down if you try using force to be alpha - he will fight you to the death. The only way to establish a relationship with my dog is to more or less reason with him using a firm guiding hand, and convince him that he wants to do your will.. It seems to be working well for us, he has now established a very trusting relationship with my immediate family members as well..

I considered a basket muzzle but a friend that works at a shelter sent me photos of a couple of dogs that had been forced to wear them and the infections and wounds and scars on their faces. Although I would never leave it on my dog long enough to cause him pain, I still really dislike the baskets. With the one I bought the nose is fully adjustable so that it can be loose enough to allow panting and we've been training him to it by giving him treats while he's wearing it.. It can also be tightened if there's some pressing need for it.. And it just seems like it would be remarkably more comfortable to wear..

Hey Leah
I'm so glad that Kaiser has adjusted to the muzzel! But at the same time I see what you mean...why would he adjust so easily to it? But nonetheless, it's great that it is working, despite what has tamed him to it in the past, it doesn't seem like he responded negitively to it in any way, fearfully or as if it were just an annoyance like the halti, and that's a good sign I think. You're on the right track with the training and I am envious of the fun you and Kaiser must have in such a big yard :-D Being a city girl yourself, I am sure you and Kaiser and enjoying the summer there.
Keep up the good work! A few months ago, I honestly wouldn't have thought you would have made such progress in this short amount of time, let alone with the distractions you both have have had in that time period.
What you've done so far with Kaiser is just short of a miricle. I am sure, with continuous efforts from both of you, You and Kaiser will have a life time of peace and happiness together.

did you have a thyroid panel run, including the TgAA? I'm thinking you did?

No, not that I'm aware of. The vet has run all sorts of tests but I don't remember what they all were. Why? Could it be affecting his behaviour?

Absolutety. Many dogs with thyroid disease show in terms of aggressive behaviour. Often, even if the levels are low (in the bottom quarter of the range), it can present not in hypothyroid symptoms, but increased anxiousness and aggressiveness. For any dog with chronic behaviour problems that don't respond the way they should with proper training, I would have a complete thryoid panel run -- T4, Free T4, T3, Free T3, TSH, and very important to include is the TgAA (thyroglobulin antibodies). They probably throw in the antibodies for T3 (T3AA) and T4 also (T4AA). In fact, I'm going through this now with our shepherd.

That's very interesting, I have never heard that before, nor did my vet mention it. I'll definitely ask her.. Tomorrow is Canada Day though so everything is for the four day weekend.. It will have to wait until Tuesday.. Thank you for that information. But could it still be thyroid if his aggression has specific triggers? We now know what the triggers are, could it still be a health problem in that case? If it was his thyroid, wouldn't it be more random? At first it seemed random but after watching more closely we now know that it's not.

I'm not a vet, and I've been discussing this very thing- thyroid issues- with my own vet recently regarding my dog Kita. The information is still a bit "anedotal" and hard to completely say the thyroid can cause or promote aggresive tendencies, but it's certainly worth an investigation. Yet, many dogs who are put on thyroid medication tend to be less reactive once put on the meds.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita and Taiko (the shiba inu wrestle maniacs), Adi (reserved and dignified tabby cat), and all 28 reptiles

Well I was talking to my mom and she said when she got her dog tested for all the thyroid things it only cost about $16.. For that kind of money I would much rather have the tests done than never know.. I just hate taking him to the vet so much because I never know if there will be kids there, and he freaks out..

They probably added on a T4 for that price ($16). You want a full panel, and be sure to get the TgAA. It will cost you more than that, but with the issues that you're having, it's worth either finding the problem, or eliminating it. The thyroid levels might be in the normal range, but if they are low-normal, and if you have an autoimmune component, then I would be willing to say that the thyroid is most likely contributing to his behaviour.

And yes, the triggers can be specific. My dog's triggers are other dogs and airplanes. There was a huge difference in reactivity within two days of starting meds, although they say it can take up to six weeks.