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We just returned from a 3 week vacation back home with our families. We took Bruno and he did very well. There were a few incidents with him growling but we're learning how to curb it and somewhat successfully. There were a few snarling incidents too. One on the way to Mi., he was laying in my daughters lap in the car and they both fell asleep. She moved in her sleep and he woke up snarling at her. She couldn't move away so she grabbed his fur on either side of his head and pinned him against my headrest until we could stop. I got him out and walked him around to wake him up. She didn't do that again. Once we got to Mi. we purchased a nylon muzzle for him. We only put it on him when he starts snarling at someone. Between that and the info we got from the behaviorist he made a huge improvement but...it seemed to me some of what everyone has been saying about not letting them on furniture and making them eat last, go through doors last etc. is pushing him away, making him feel like he's not part of the family. So I tried a little experiment. All part of that "know your dog" thing!

My in-laws have 2 recliners and they always let their Travern lay on the leg rest between their legs while watching TV. I tried this with Bruno. At first he would come up and lick my face like crazy, then want down. After awhile he was content but he needed something to do so I'd hand wrestle with him. I try to open my hand really wide and put it on his face and he'd try to grab it with his mouth. Sometimes he'd lick, sometimes he'd gnaw (lightly) and sometimes he'd do both. If he pressed to hard I'd yelp and he start licking my hand. For a period of 2 hours he fell asleep while I watched TV, then eventually fell asleep. I twitch in my sleep and did so on this occasion. The TV remote I had in my hand went flying, Bruno responded by bolting off the chair barking and in doing so, dug his claws into my most vulnerable of areas trying to get down. It was still cool being able to chill with him for so long.

Here's what I've noticed since then.

--We can walk around him when he's eating. If he's not right at his bowl he'll run back to it and watch us. When he's had enough time to eat we do not remove the bowl while he can see us, rather have someone distract him, then take it.
--He has stopped growling at us when he's laying down and we walk nearby.
--I can pet him while he's laying if I get his attention first but not in a high pitched voice. Rather a matter of fact, regular command voice. Susan still uses the happy high pitched voice and he doesn't seem to do as well with it.
--The obedience training worked well. He follows commands, usually, and remembers his tricks. I was trying to work with my in-laws dog and he wouldn't go away. He did everything I told their dog to do. It was funy.
--He is an amaizing watch dog. From a dead sleep he responds to everything. The other dog was barking/growling (her hips hurt and she was accidentally bumped) at my mother-in-law. Bruno came running in, got between them and laid down.

So far things are getting much better. Still a ways to go but going well.

Eric
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

I totally agree about the furtiture. Cookie is not allowed in our bed, but she is allowed on the couches, as long as she sits first and we tell her ok.

To play nice with each other. Advice and opinions are always welcome on the message boards. However when that advice and those opinions start to become personal in nature they will not be allowed. Please keep your comments to the subject at hand. Thank you for your time and consideration.

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Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.
PHMax
HMax@pethobbyist.com" target="_blank">Email PHMax

>> There were a few incidents with him growling but we're learning how to curb it and somewhat successfully. There were a few snarling incidents too. One on the way to Mi., he was laying in my daughters lap in the car and they both fell asleep. She moved in her sleep and he woke up snarling at her. She couldn't move away so she grabbed his fur on either side of his head and pinned him against my headrest until we could stop. I got him out and walked him around to wake him up. She didn't do that again. Once we got to Mi. we purchased a nylon muzzle for him. We only put it on him when he starts snarling at someone. Between that and the info we got from the behaviorist he made a huge improvement but...it seemed to me some of what everyone has been saying about not letting them on furniture and making them eat last, go through doors last etc. is pushing him away, making him feel like he's not part of the family. So I tried a little experiment. All part of that "know your dog" thing!
>>
>>My in-laws have 2 recliners and they always let their Travern lay on the leg rest between their legs while watching TV. I tried this with Bruno. At first he would come up and lick my face like crazy, then want down. After awhile he was content but he needed something to do so I'd hand wrestle with him. I try to open my hand really wide and put it on his face and he'd try to grab it with his mouth. ... The TV remote I had in my hand went flying, Bruno responded by bolting off the chair barking and in doing so, dug his claws into my most vulnerable of areas trying to get down.
>>--I can pet him while he's laying if I get his attention first but not in a high pitched voice.

This dog is dangerous. The improvements are not near enough to make this dog not dangerous. You put your daughter in danger with having this dog with her. At the very least he should have been harnessed and muzzled in a confined space, or ideally in a crate. Because you do not seem to want to confront the issue of this dog's dangerous temperament, you continue to put people in harms way.

Allowing a dog on the furniture and rough housing in ANY WAY with a dog that is still exhibiting aggressive behaviors is against any responsible training advice on the face of the earth. I suggest you show your post to your trainer if you really believe this person thinks such behaviors are okay when the dog is still snarling and showing such aggression, and show the trainer my response.

Sadly, I see this dog harming someone and needing to be euthanized. I can only hope that the damage isn't one that will cost a human a lifetime of scars... or even their life.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]

I for one am happy for you. I see this as a positive post, because it shows that you are learning ways to live peacefully with a dog that will never be completely stable.

With Kaiser we have had to use tactics that fly in the face of all "responsible" training advice. Only after my sister finally got tired of being harassed and pinned Kaiser to the ground yelling "NO!" did he stop treating her as a second class citizen in our household. I'm not in the slightest recommending doing that with Bruno, but my point is that you know your dog and some dogs need things that would not regularly be recommended.

Congratulations on your efforts with a dog that will never be reliable. Whatever anyone else has said you're sticking by your dog and your responsibility to him and changing things about your life to make a space in it for him. He may eventually become uncontrollable, I'm prepared in case that ever happens to Kaiser, but not a soul can tell the future and in my opinion euthanasia is not an acceptable preemptive strike.

We also got a muzzle for Kaiser and use it whenever there's a chance he may get grumpy. Be cautious and vigilant, and there will never be a need to put him down because of his aggression.

I read the previous post from work but won't send a response from there. When I logged on this morning I had every intention of conceeding to Debra. I simply don't have that much negative energy and it's gotten boring.

I really appreciate you sticking with me. I'm not looking for someone to say I'm right but the things we are doing are actually working. I'll believe my own eyes before what someone else tells me any day.

We bought a muzzle for Bruno as well. Would have gotten one on the trip home except most truck stops don't carry them. We bought a nylon muzzle with a thin strap that goes over the top. He pushed it off into his mouth and chewed it. I bought another one that had a much wider top to it. It worked great until he found it sitting on a table in the living room and chewed it up. I'd like to find a more sturdy muzzle and actually keep it away from him when not in use.

I've heard that dogs start chewing around a year and sure enough he has also. He's been great up to this point. Now I try telling everyone to pick their stuff up that he might chew and he still finds things. He grabbed a bottle of lotion from the top of the toilet in the bathroom. His breath smelled nice but I'm sure id didn't taste good. He didn't get sick, not much in the bottle, but it was all in the carpet etc. He's also gotten Susan's dress shoes, a pen, a pillow etc. We provide many chewy items for him and trade him when we catch him. He's pretty good when we say 'Mine!" He let's go right away.

Really the only time he growls now is with his food. Most times I can walk by and even touch him bt other times he growls. Still working on it. We've gone back to confining him to the kitchen at night. He still hears everything and still barks so it's no big deal. The other night we had our ritual where he barks and I get out of bed to see what he's barking at. The first time all I saw was an unknown van near my house (subdivision). The second time my neighbor was knocking at my door. The van I saw was running with no-one in it. It had been stolen and dropped off near my house. Bruno heard the people when they dropped it off, I was just to slow to get up and catch them.

Gotta go for now but thanx for the encouragment. Your assistance is why I will continue to post!

Eric
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>With Kaiser we have had to use tactics that fly in the face of all "responsible" training advice. Only after my sister finally got tired of being harassed and pinned Kaiser to the ground yelling "NO!" did he stop treating her as a second class citizen in our household.

There is a world of difference between an ADULT doing this (even if I still think it's dangerous), and what was described which was a CHILD doing it.
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Christie Keith
Caber Feidh Scottish Deerhounds
Holistic Husbandry since 1986
www.caberfeidh.com/
Dogged Blog

>>>>With Kaiser we have had to use tactics that fly in the face of all "responsible" training advice. Only after my sister finally got tired of being harassed and pinned Kaiser to the ground yelling "NO!" did he stop treating her as a second class citizen in our household.
>>
>>There is a world of difference between an ADULT doing this (even if I still think it's dangerous), and what was described which was a CHILD doing it.
>>-----
>>Christie Keith
>>Caber Feidh Scottish Deerhounds
>>Holistic Husbandry since 1986
>>www.caberfeidh.com/
>>Dogged Blog
>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Actually, the sister in question IS a child. And Leah, do I remember correctly that Kaiser has bitten this sister in the face?
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

Yes, you do remember correctly. My sister just turned 16 and is a very fragile, 90lb girl. Before we knew just how serious Kaiser's problem was he did bite her in a scuffle over food and left a small scar near her eye. It was that incident that sparked the entire "should he be euthanized" debate. After much painful deliberation we decided to take every step necessary to keep him alive and happy, and everyone around him safe.

It took a lot of work but Kaiser and my sister are good pals now. Whenever we visited he always had his halti or a muzzle and stayed on leash with me or one of my parents. My sister worked with him on his training extensively and he did snap at her on occasion but that was what the halti and leash were for. She finally got tired of being bullied, pinned him down, and they've been good friends ever since. He respects her wishes and she makes it clear that nothing else will be tolerated.

Just for the record she did that against my advice. I told her repeatedly to be firm but clear out if he got snippy. And just because that worked for her, like I said, I do not recommend it to anyone else..

I wouldn't consider Alicia a child in the sense of frailty or size. She's 16 and quite strong. Probably more able than most women no matter what age. She's also more able to deal with Bruno when needed. She, like myself, is not afraid of him. We respect him and do understand what he is capable of but we do not fear him. Now, as most teenagers do, Alicia will occasionally do things without regard for prior instruction. She was gone for a week and Bruno seemed allot more mello. Turns out she still rules him a bit harsher than the rest of us. We spoke with her about it and made it very clear what will, and what will not be tolerated. We've been trying to work toward improvement and when we are not around, she's been dealing with him her own way which was part of the problem. She's since stopped and he's doing even better.
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

Welcome to puppy parenthood! Kaiser loves sticks, and anything else that is shreddable. A couple of weeks ago he found his way into my dad's woodworking shop and found the box of scrap wood pieces. Did he ever have a great time! I'll bet he thought he found stick heaven. My dad found him there, sleeping happily in the middle of a giant pile of freshly chipped wood

There's nothing Kaiser won't eat. He loves soap especially, and chapstick. He also eats the fallen pears from the tree in the yard. He will choose watermelon over meat anyday and will do absolutely anything for carrots. And there's nothing that tops off kleenex and paper towel.

My dad's dog has always been picky, and would never eat anything except kibble and meat. After spending the summer with Kaiser she'll take sticks from him and munch away happily, and she sits and begs for carrots just as he does. It's amazing how they rub off on each other

For the first 8 months we really thouht he might not chew anything other than what we provided. We were right to an extent, just did realize we provided shoes, pillows etc.

I to have a work shop and he's always grabbed wood from it. Oh well, maybe this is God's way of helping us get rid of some clutter
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>>Welcome to puppy parenthood! Kaiser loves sticks, and anything else that is shreddable. A couple of weeks ago he found his way into my dad's woodworking shop and found the box of scrap wood pieces. Did he ever have a great time! I'll bet he thought he found stick heaven. My dad found him there, sleeping happily in the middle of a giant pile of freshly chipped wood
>>
>>

Dogs die from eating and chewing wood. Can't sugar coat that one either.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]

Dogs will die from just about anything. My dog enjoys chewing wood, particularly sticks from maple trees in the back yard. He does not eat it, merely shreds it. I'm positive that many wild dogs have chewed on sticks before and have not suffered fatal consequences. Any average dog owner with a tree in the back yard has probably seen their dog wandering around with a stick. I don't see it as a reason to panic.

If any of the wood in the shop had been *treated* with chemicals, varnish, etc., then I certainly would have been concerned. But I know that that's not the case, and so am not worried..

Good lookin out! Bruno has never been aggresive while we are out. It's like his happy place. He even takes treats without problems. We still keep him from close proximity to anyone else unless they wish to pet him. Then we make him sit and wait for them to come to him. This also helps for him to not jump on people. We've always corrected him for jumping up and he hasn't done it since we first got him.

Susan started the novice training course with him last Tuesday and he was one of the best dogs there. When we attended the basic course we were just starting to have the problems. The trainers are still very leary of him and him only even though some of the other dogs actually act out in the class where Bruno does not. The other handlers don't keep there dog's on a tight leash either. There dog will make it to another dog or person and the handler will blame it on the dog's age (puppy). Then it's just irresistable to explain the dog only goes where you let him.

Thanx for the reminder! We haven't gotten complacent yet but I can see your point on how it can sneek up on you. I don't think we'll ever be able to have Bruno off leash if for no other reason than we couldn't catch him. He loves chasing rabbits, cats, squirells etc. Because of this we don't even train off leash when out of the fenced in area and so should never expect to have him off leash. Even still, good reminder! Thanx!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

That's good that he's doing well in class.. That's a start. It's also handy that he doesn't get aggressive while you're out.. I wish Kaiser were like that..

About the leash, I meant that I have a 6' flat nylon leash dragging from his collar while we're in the house and fenced yard, always. Simply so that if I need to get control and he's getting snippy, I don't have to reach anywhere near his head to do it. When we're out he's always on leash of course, but also in the house and yard.. I'm living with my parents for a couple of months while I'm home from school and their friends are always wandering in unannounced, so the leash is a life saver if we're outside and suddenly notice someone sitting in the orchard or something..

I can't help from responding. Guess I'm just a gluten for punishment.

Since you seem so hung up on this I will explain. I did not place my dog in my daughters lap. He was confined to the rear of the car. We drove by a tractor trailer which scared Bruno and he jumed over the seats into her lap. She was actually calming him down. In doing so they fell asleep and the rest you know. You make it sound like we intenionally did this and did nothing about it. As I stated before we purchased a muzzle so this did not happen again, you know because we are so irresponsible.

In denial, not really, just not as scared as you are. We all take risks based on our level of comfort with them. You probably drive a car every day and the chances of you being killed in that car are far greater than me being bitten by Bruno. I know he could be a dangerous animal, so can my 12 foot python. That's not going to stop me from enjoying either.

When he starts growling do I walk away or smack him? No-way! I'll sit with him and talk him down until he stops. Since I've been doing this it takes him less time to calm down if he even does it at all. I can now give him treats by hand and he'll take them very gently and quietly. He may run away and eat it elsewhere and I leave him alone. When I play with him I grab his fur on his face or tap his nose, grab his feet or tap his tongue. I can always tell him to lay down in the middle of playing and he'll do so without a problem.

I can do just about anything most people enjoy doing with their dogs but I always assume he could turn. It's the risk I'll take. Susan may be more cautious and use other methods that work for her. Operative word being "Work" for her just like what I do works for me. You can call me all the names you want and say whatever you want. You are the one in denial because you refuse to believe that what we are doing is working.

Many of the things you complain that we are ignoring we have already done or still do and from the way it looks, other people have methods that work for them even though they don't fall under your approved guidlines. Enjoy your car, I'll enjoy my dog!
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

>> I did not place my dog in my daughters lap. He was confined to the rear of the car. We drove by a tractor trailer which scared Bruno and he jumed over the seats into her lap. She was actually calming him down. In doing so they fell asleep and the rest you know.

Hmmm, your first post,
>>One on the way to Mi., he was laying in my daughters lap in the car and they both fell asleep. She moved in her sleep and he woke up snarling at her. She couldn't move away

Had you not been in denial, you would have pulled over and put him back where he belonged. He'd have been buckled into where he belonged or crated.

And no, I am not so hung up on that incident, nor hung up at all. Simply will not read dangerous posts with responding. You are entirely free to ignore my posts but please lose the snide attacking comments.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]

I just believe that instead of telling him that there is no hope, we should be educating him on the proper ways to deal with those situations. Nothing you can tell him over the internet is likely to convince him to put Bruno down. However if there is something positive about the advice he's given he's a lot more likely to to take it to heart. It's not sugarcoating, that would be telling him that everything is going to be okay, Bruno will magically become a wonderful, normal dog with lots of love and good food. That's not at all what I'm saying. If he's not going to put Bruno down anyway the least I can do is try to help him come up with the things he'll need to do to keep people safe from this dog. His decision has been made - and even I have told him that Bruno will never be safe or reliable. I told him that there may come a point when euthanasia is the only option. But I also told him that there are ways to live peacefully with a dog like this and that euthanasia is a completely unacceptable preemptive strike. Not until all other options have been exhausted should murder of a pet you are responsible for even be considered.

Debra, I truly am sorry that I said those things. They were not entirely directed at you, because I know that you do know what you're talking about, better than I do, even if we choose to see the same subject from opposite sides. I was thinking of all the people who told me to put my dog down (not necessarily on these boards but many had years of experience) and how wrong those people were. I was remembering the frustration when I had made my decision to keep my aggressive dog and could find very little supportive information on how to make that possible. It IS possible to live safely with such a dog but there's so little info out there on how to do it properly. When I asked questions many people simply repeated that aggressive dogs should be euthanized. It was exceedingly difficult to get real answers to my questions.

I really apologize, I was taking things out on the board that should be dealt with elsewhere. From this point I will make no negative references to anything anyone else might say. If you want to respond to anything I may say in the future that angers you, please feel free to e-mail me at the address provided here at pethobbyist. I'll ask one of the moderators to have that post removed.

>>I just believe that instead of telling him that there is no hope, we should be educating him on the proper ways to deal with those situations. .... If he's not going to put Bruno down anyway the least I can do is try to help him come up with the things he'll need to do to keep people safe from this dog.

The frustration is that he asks for advice, sticks to nothing long enough to see if it works, and goes against safety. Having that dog loose in the car was simply dangerous. A dog like that needs incredibly controlled environment. I wouldn't even consider taking it on trips to visit others unless crated, muzzled and kept from them. Maybe in a great deal of time, but not now. And not only do the people bitten pay when we mess up, the dog generally pays the ultimate price. Love your dog? Keep it safe and keep others safe from it. That is the only way such dogs get to live long lives.

>>Debra, I truly am sorry that I said those things.

Thats okay, really. Lord knows I pop off myself.

>>>>When I asked questions many people simply repeated that aggressive dogs should be euthanized. It was exceedingly difficult to get real answers to my questions.

There are certainly ways to keep such dogs. Many of us with dominant breeds do so. But it requires vigilence. Most people simply are not capable of safely doing that either on their own or because of people in their household. When it can't be done with the utmost safety, then yep, its time to euthanize. I would rather see a dog put down BEFORE a serious bite than after. I guess I value human lives over dogs. But when someone is determined AND willing to go the extra 1000 miles to keep them safe, it can be done.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]

I completely agree that I would not take this dog to visit others without a muzzle and/or crate, and only then for less than a couple of hours, certainly not over night.. Every May 24 weekend my dad's entire family goes camping together and it made me very sad to have to miss it for the first time in my life, but to keep a dog like this there are certainly going to have to be huge sacrifices.

But by the same token, it's possible that Bruno's owners simply didn't think about the risks involved. That's a big part of why we're here, to help them think about the things that might not be completely obvious, or ambiguous.. He has said that Bruno is not aggressive when they are away from home, so he may have truly believed that there was little or no risk involved in visiting others. Maybe he thought they were better off that way than having relatives come and visit them in Bruno's home.

I really think that the simple fact that he's here shows the initiative needed to at least give it a try. This family wants to learn how to cope with this dog and it's true, it will take some time to get there. But to me it sounds like they have at least a little time to turn things around before this dog is unmanageable. That however is a judgement call, my personal opinion..

As for Bruno having no respect for Captain's daughters, I think that once they get the rest of it under control that part will not be difficult to remedy. Bruno can learn respect for them as Kaiser learned respect for my sister..

I remember you saying that Bruno may never be reliable. I figured that was the case regardless of whether the sypmtoms were showing or not. His aggression, gaurding or whatever, is a part of him and I really don't think it will ever completely go away. I will not appologize for anything I said as I meant every word. I've taken advice from this forum that that didn't worked and some that did. I've taken the advice from the behaviorist that did work and she was called an idiot. I came to the forum for help and I'm sure all may have had good itentions. I was trashed consistently by one person when I followed different advice that worked for us, and apparently has for others. I understand about not following advice and asking for more help. I see it allot on the burmese python forum however circumstances will never be the same. Someone mentioned to try things for longer periods as Bruno knew we would change after awhile and that made sense. We did that right around the time we went to the behaviorist. She gave us step by step instructions for different areas based on her observation of Bruno. He has consistently gotten better since then. The muzzle on the drive to Michigan, like you said, we've made mistakes, but we bought one as soon as we got there. Didn't seem to matter because we are still being trashed as recently as yesterday for not having one (although we did the very next day). As for a crate, there was not enough room in the car and the behaviorist said not to use one because he had aggression with the crate as well. We use a baby gate to isolate him and stay away while his food is down. We distract him when he's finished and while he's gone remove the bowl. As for my daughter, like your sister, she doesn't always listen eiher. What happened happened. I appreciate you still trying to help us but recently this has become more of a battle of wits vs a place to get advice. If you're interested I'll keep you posted via e-mail. Not sure if this forum is worth the drama.

Eric
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DZ

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

I completely understand and don't blame you in the slightest. This place is full of drama - I guess any public meeting place is bound to be. Opinions are likely to collide, people get worked up, and everyone believes that their way is the right way.

If you do decide not to return, or would like to share something that is likely to spark controversy, please do e-mail me.. I'm very interested in what happens with Bruno. He seems to be very similar to Kaiser in many ways and I'd like to know about things that you're trying, what's working for you, and how he's doing in general.. You can use the link for my e-mail that's here on pethobbyist..

Please do keep me posted, I feel that we're very much in almost the same situation here with our dogs and that we may be able to learn quite a bit from each other..

>> I've taken the advice from the behaviorist that did work and she was called an idiot.

Of course you know that is untrue. I said if she truly told you to engage in rough housing with this dog while it is still aggressive. Since I don't believe for one minute that she intended that, and said so, then your comment is untrue. I said IF and you know that I did. For the rest, you continue to make attacks. move on. Telling you that what you do is dangerous is not "trashing you." Period.
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Debra
ebraDownSth@aol.com" target="_blank">DebraDownSth@aol.com
Blessed Are The Flexible For They
Shall Not Be Bent Out of Shape.]